Immigration and Canada Soccer

[Ed_S]

I'm glad to see the diversity on this team and the fact that players with mutliple national team options are choosing to play for us. Far cry from late 70s and early 80s where a British background automatically put you on the team.

[An Observer]

9 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I too find it is a bit surface level.  When I first went Upton Park for a game, you bought pie and mash to eat at halftime, but even 10 years ago when I came back, it was basically burgers.  We live in a global world (awful phrase); things, people and sports interests moved around a lot more than they used to. That even affects die-hard English football fans and what they want/can eat.

It is a fact of life I guess I am saying. There are lots of great things than come from immigration and the current state of Canadian soccer has certainly benefited from it.  Ital-Canadian kids were only people I really had to talk about it with, back in the day, for instance.  

That said, unless you are like the other - Cree - kids I grew up with, we are all products of years of immigration in this country.  Looking at it that way, we can agree it is way too simple to say it has all been great.  A huge complex issue that soccer has something to contribute too but it is obviously only one part of.  The kind of issue  I try to avoid on here, for good or bad. 

The food at English premier league grounds was atrocious in 90s and early 2000s even for a born and bred Canadian from English and Ukrainian stock like me.  When I went to a match, I made sure I ate before and may have grabbed a pack of Walkers crisps at the half and that was about it.  It also didn't help I was a vegetarian.  When Roy Keane made his famous "prawn sandwich" comment, I was like "hmmm.  maybe I will drive up there from London and take in a United match". 😀

[BigMo]

I find it strange to see so much resistance to this very basic point in this thread. I certainly do not think its the *only* factor or even the most important one, but to argue its irrelevant or discrediting Canada is bizarre. Many of the players themselves would agree with the point. 

How can it be anything other than a benefit to the sport, to have many families who immigrated from places where it soccer was the first or second most popular sport? This isn't a Canada specific point either, see extensive writing on the production of talent from diverse backgrounds in Paris's suburbs or in South London.

[Califax]

I don’t think there’s a lot of resistance to the points, I just think it reads like a guy who paid attention to soccer starting in late 2021 and really didn’t have the context or understanding about of the intricacies of the dynamic he was exploring. 

Far be it from me - in sweatpants and with Cheetoh crumbs on my chest - to call out Malcolm Gladwell for presenting a re-hashed argument, but “immigration helps Canada” is to  soccer,  what “get pucks in deep” is to hockey, or “voters like authenticity” is to politics. 
 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Califax

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

19 hours ago, An Observer said:

The food at English premier league grounds was atrocious in 90s and early 2000s even for a born and bred Canadian from English and Ukrainian stock like me.  When I went to a match, I made sure I ate before and may have grabbed a pack of Walkers crisps at the half and that was about it.  It also didn't help I was a vegetarian.  When Roy Keane made his famous "prawn sandwich" comment, I was like "hmmm.  maybe I will drive up there from London and take in a United match". 😀

Pie,mash and liquor (not that kind) is not for everyone.  Especially with jellied eels (not that I ever saw them at a ground).

[ssk]

This is lazy and bad. Love how he doesn't even care too look if the WASP/white players are immigrants.

The fact that Fraser, Millar and Kennedy got to play in lower-league Europe before making it big here strongly suggests that they have recent immigrant backgrounds.

Edit: a quick Google reveals the following:

- Alastair Johnston: mom is from Northern Island

- Liam Millar: dad is from England

- David Wotherspoon: born in Scotland

Edited April 29, 2022 by ssk
Fuck Malcolm Gladwell and his stupid face

[RS]

2 minutes ago, ssk said:

This is lazy and bad. Love how just assumes that the WASP/white players aren't immigrants.

The fact that Fraser and Millar got to play in lower-league Europe before making it big here strongly suggests that they have recent immigrant backgrounds.

Which Fraser are you talking about?

[Bison44]

I think its that Kobe Fraser that was at TFC 2.  

[vancanman]

22 hours ago, An Observer said:

The food at English premier league grounds was atrocious in 90s and early 2000s even for a born and bred Canadian from English and Ukrainian stock like me.  When I went to a match, I made sure I ate before and may have grabbed a pack of Walkers crisps at the half and that was about it.  It also didn't help I was a vegetarian.  When Roy Keane made his famous "prawn sandwich" comment, I was like "hmmm.  maybe I will drive up there from London and take in a United match". 😀

I was at a game in Japan in December where the only two options were ice cream and octopus.  Not much of a choice for a vegetarian who didn't want to freeze to death.  

[red card]

7 hours ago, Califax said:

I don’t think there’s a lot of resistance to the points, I just think it reads like a guy who paid attention to soccer starting in late 2021 and really didn’t have the context or understanding about of the intricacies of the dynamic he was exploring. 

Far be it from me - in sweatpants and with Cheetoh crumbs on my chest - to call out Malcolm Gladwell for presenting a re-hashed argument, but “immigration helps Canada” is to  soccer,  what “get pucks in deep” is to hockey, or “voters like authenticity” is to politics. 
 

 

It's a rehased argument because there is a sizeable contingent that don't believe immigration is net positive. Certainly seen in the US which is the audience Gladwell was writing for.

In Canada, the federal politicians now largely don't say anything directly against immigration since you will lose the 905 vote but some use code words. In the general society, there is a vocal segment against it - just go to the comments section of any article on a mainstream media site that "rehashes" the argument.

[RJB]

I'd be curious to know how many Canadian's have parents born outside the country, or were themselves.

[Sal333]

10 hours ago, red card said:

It's a rehased argument because there is a sizeable contingent that don't believe immigration is net positive. Certainly seen in the US which is the audience Gladwell was writing for.

In Canada, the federal politicians now largely don't say anything directly against immigration since you will lose the 905 vote but some use code words. In the general society, there is a vocal segment against it - just go to the comments section of any article on a mainstream media site that "rehashes" the argument.

Don't fool yourself. That sizable contingent is not just in the states. It exists here in Canada. 

[Sal333]

5 hours ago, RJB said:

I'd be curious to know how many Canadian's have parents born outside the country, or were themselves.

I remember reading a couple of years ago on stats Can that one in five people living in Canada were born elsewhere.

[RJB]

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

I remember reading a couple of years ago on stats Can that one in five people living in Canada were born elsewhere.

This kind of ruins his argument doesn't it?  If twenty percent of us are born elsewhere, then when you consider parents it makes the CMNT pretty typical of society here.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

8 hours ago, RJB said:

I'd be curious to know how many Canadian's have parents born outside the country, or were themselves.

The second part is easy

- as of 2016 (this particular data for last year's census will not be released until October) - of 34,460,060 people - Born outside Canada - 8,219,550 - so almost 24 % - right ?

(Reserves are always under-surveyed but I am not sure how statistical significant that is in this.)

[P-O]

 

I am proud of our national team and whether their body is white, black, orange or purple, I will cheer for them if they wear the Maple Leaf.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by P-O

[Sal333]

19 minutes ago, RJB said:

This kind of ruins his argument doesn't it?  If twenty percent of us are born elsewhere, then when you consider parents it makes the CMNT pretty typical of society here.  

I don't follow.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

26 minutes ago, RJB said:

This kind of ruins his argument doesn't it?  If twenty percent of us are born elsewhere, then when you consider parents it makes the CMNT pretty typical of society here.  

Think you'll find most of that 20% is clustered into the GTA, lower mainland BC and the Montreal area. The CMNT is reflective of that portion of Canada. Somewhere like Newfoundland or the rural portions of the Prairies not so much.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Think you'll find most of that 20% is clustered into the GTA, lower mainland BC and the Montreal area. The CMNT is reflective of that portion of Canada. Somewhere like Newfoundland or the rural portions of the Prairies not so much.

Respectfully, that's a bit of rubbish.

21% of Albertans were immigrants in 2016, for instance.  Even where I grew up, the definition of the rural prairies is still over 10%. 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

You are seriously trying to argue that Brampton which has produced a disproportionate portion of the CMNT in recent years is comparable to Lethbridge or Bonavista in demographic terms?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/brampton-team-canada-soccer-1.6396192

Edited April 30, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

You are seriously trying to argue that Brampton which has produced a disproportionate portion of the CMNT in recent years is comparable to Lethbridge or Bonavista in demographic terms?

That is not what I said, is it? You said that immigrants were clustered in three areas, that is simple not true and I stated that. 

Brampton has a very high immigrant population.  A lot of that immigrant population happens to be from football-interested areas and it has a great football support structure compared to other areas.  It's great for us. 

But we can't pretend that it is one of a handful of places in Canada where immigrants are a big part of the way of life.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

All I said was that most first generation immigrants wind up in the three largest metro areas. That inherently implies that a significant portion don't. Reality is that by the 1950s for whatever reason Canadian society had decided that soccer wasn't for them and hockey, baseball and gridiron were the way to go. If there hadn't been large scale immigration post-WWII through to the present day the CMNT would not be going to Qatar.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Sal333]

Instead of guessing, maybe we should check with Stats Can.

Here is the main page:

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/subjects-start/immigration_and_ethnocultural_diversity

Here's the breakdown according to metropolitan areas.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/171025/t001b-eng.htm

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

46 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

Instead of guessing, maybe we should check with Stats Can.

Here is the main page:

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/subjects-start/immigration_and_ethnocultural_diversity

Here's the breakdown according to metropolitan areas.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/171025/t001b-eng.htm

Where I was going from (with pretty colours). You can drill down to your community if you want by search it at the top

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/fogs-spg/Facts-can-eng.cfm?LANG=Eng&GK=CAN&GC=01&TOPIC=7

I guess we can argue about what "cluster" means but for me when three areas have 62 ish % of the immigrants when they have 36 ish % of the population as a whole, is it significant put not clustered.  

It is interesting to me that Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg have a higher immigrant percentage than Montreal for instance. 

 

At the end of the day, I will take Alphonso Davies, statistical consistent or not, any day. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Maybe the penny will drop eventually as to why I wrote "rural portions of the Prairies".