Immigration and Canada Soccer

[scooterlawrence5]

Interesting article from Malcolm Gladwell via Bontis Twitter

Malcolm Gladwell argues that In the 1970s and '80s, Canada let in lots of immigrants, many of whom happened to be from countries that care a lot about soccer. He then analyzes MNT players and where their parents are from.

Milan Borjan (Red Star Belgrade)

Place of birth: Knin, Croatia (then the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia)

Moved to Canada in 2000

Maxime Crépeau (LAFC)

Place of birth: Greenfield Park, Quebec, Canada

Dayne St. Clair (Minnesota United FC)

Place of birth: Pickering, Ontario, Canada

Trinidadian father and Canadian-Scottish mother

DEFENDERS

Samuel Adekugbe (Hatayspor FC)

Place of birth: London, England

British-Nigerian parents

Moved to Canada when he was 10

Derek Cornelius (Panetolikos FC)

Place of birth: Ajax, Ontario, Canada

Barbadian father and Jamaican mother

Cristián Gutiérrez (Vancouver Whitecaps FC)

Place of birth: Greenfield Park, Quebec, Canada

Raised in Chile; parents are Chilean

Doneil Henry (LAFC)

Place of birth: Brampton, Ontario, Canada

Parents moved to Canada from Jamaica

Alistair Johnston (CF Montréal)

Place of birth: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Canadian father and Northern Irish mother

Scott Kennedy (SSV Jahn Regensburg)

Place of birth: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Richie Laryea (Nottingham Forest FC)

Place of birth: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Parents from Ghana

Kamal Miller (CF Montréal)

Place of birth: Scarborough, Ontario, Canada

Steven Vitória (Moreirense FC)

Place of birth: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Parents are Portuguese immigrants from the Azores

MIDFIELDERS

Stephen Eustáquio (FC Porto)

Place of birth: Leamington, Canada

Portuguese parents, moved to Portugal as a kid

Liam Fraser (KMSK Deinze)

Place of birth: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Atiba Hutchinson (Beşiktaş JK)

Place of birth: Brampton, Ontario, Canada

Trinidadian parents

Mark-Anthony Kaye (Colorado Rapids)

Place of birth: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Jonathan Osorio (Toronto FC)

Place of birth: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Parents are Colombian

Ismaël Koné (CF Montréal)

Place of birth: Abidjan, Ivory Coast

Moved to Montreal as a kid

FORWARDS

Tajon Buchanan (Club Brugge KV)

Place of birth: Brampton, Ontario, Canada

Lucas Cavallini (Vancouver Whitecaps FC)

Place of birth: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Argentinian father and Canadian mother

Jonathan David (Lille OSC)

Place of birth: Brooklyn, New York, United States

Born in New York City to Haitian parents; grew up in Haiti and Ottawa

David Junior Hoilett (Reading FC)

Place of birth: Brampton, Ontario, Canada

Jamaican parents

Cyle Larin (Beşiktaş JK)

Place of birth: Brampton, Ontario, Canada

Jamaican father, Jamaican-Canadian mother

Liam Millar (FC Basel)

Place of birth: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Iké Ugbo (KRC Genk)

Place of birth: Lewisham, England

Parents are Nigerian; moved to Canada from England when he was 4

[theaub]

I find this to be pretty tired analysis tbh (which is no surprise coming from Gladwell).

MNT has always had a significant base of first generation Canadians and/or players born in other soccer-mad countries.  Infrastructure and/or coaching is what has been missing and is slowly coming along now.

[TGAA_Star]

Because we do have a lot of dual nationals in this country hence multiculturalism...more than a melting pot but at the same time it does wonders for our program especially when said dual nationals play for us instead of the country of their birth or the country of their ancestry. Similar to a lot of countries in that regard.

[Sal333]

35 minutes ago, theaub said:

I find this to be pretty tired analysis tbh (which is no surprise coming from Gladwell).

MNT has always had a significant base of first generation Canadians and/or players born in other soccer-mad countries.  Infrastructure and/or coaching is what has been missing and is slowly coming along now.

You realize an argument can be made that the coaching and infrastructure was finally put in place only because there were so many immigrants and children of immigrants clamouring for them.

I think Caldwell makes a salient point.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Sal333

[youllneverwalkalone]

I actually like reading Gladwell, somewhat like I assume people like reading Jackie Collins. I also love reading reviews of people trashing his captain obvious analysis. There are a few beauties like this for Talking to Strangers. Which brings me to me point:

[AvroArrow]

I think another thing to consider is that you now have a generation of kids who are now in their 40's and 50's who grew up playing soccer, and are now coaching.  This likely was not as common place in prior generations.  Not only do we potentially have a better system but we may also have better people to stock it with.

[Cicero]

He seems completely unaware that most of these players have gotten a chance to be professionals now because there are actually professional teams in North America, and more specifically, Canada.  Kind of like many of the '86 group got a chance in the NASL. Has nothing to do with suddenly having immigrants from soccer playing countries. We've always had those. Typically superficial writing from him. 

[Sal333]

3 minutes ago, Cicero said:

He seems completely unaware that most of these players have gotten a chance to be professionals now because there are actually professional teams in North America, and more specifically, Canada.  Kind of like many of the '86 group got a chance in the NASL. Has nothing to do with suddenly having immigrants from soccer playing countries. We've always had those. Typically superficial writing from him. 

Talk about superficial writing!

You realize those professional soccer teams are opened to all Canadians, first, second, third, fourth generation yet the overwhelming majority of players on the NT are first or second generation Canadians. In other words Canadians born in another country or kids of immigrants.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think what the demographics of the national team show is that although there are more children playing soccer since the youth soccer registration boom of the mid-90s than would have been the case 40 or 50 years ago when soccer was still very much in a first generation immigrant ghetto it is still disproportionately players from a recent immigrant background that take soccer seriously enough to be exceptional at it rather than just playing it in a house league baby sitting service type format.

[Cicero]

His argument is that immigrants find new things to do, and thus aren't a threat to existing citizens economically, and hence, he seems to be implying, that we should basically open the door to anyone. There's a much more complicated discussion here than just talking about our national soccer team. My point was that he didn't even consider how this particular success has come to be, just presumes recent immigration is its cause. Then implies that it can be projected onto the broader economy and society. Like I said, typically superficial Gladwell 'analysis'.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Cicero

[SpursFlu]

Yes immigrants.. we all get it

[Sal333]

37 minutes ago, Cicero said:

His argument is that immigrants find new things to do, and thus aren't a threat to existing citizens economically, and hence, he seems to be implying, that we should basically open the door to anyone. There's a much more complicated discussion here than just talking about our national soccer team. My point was that he didn't even consider how this particular success has come to be, just presumes recent immigration is its cause. Then implies that it can be projected onto the broader economy and society. Like I said, typically superficial Gladwell 'analysis'.

You're intentional mis-characterizing what he said. He was applauding Canada's present immigration policy. No one in their right mind would label our immigration policy as basically opened to anyone.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

I too find it is a bit surface level.  When I first went Upton Park for a game, you bought pie and mash to eat at halftime, but even 10 years ago when I came back, it was basically burgers.  We live in a global world (awful phrase); things, people and sports interests moved around a lot more than they used to. That even affects die-hard English football fans and what they want/can eat.

It is a fact of life I guess I am saying. There are lots of great things than come from immigration and the current state of Canadian soccer has certainly benefited from it.  Ital-Canadian kids were only people I really had to talk about it with, back in the day, for instance.  

That said, unless you are like the other - Cree - kids I grew up with, we are all products of years of immigration in this country.  Looking at it that way, we can agree it is way too simple to say it has all been great.  A huge complex issue that soccer has something to contribute too but it is obviously only one part of.  The kind of issue  I try to avoid on here, for good or bad. 

[Admin]

Nothing good can be Canadian.  

I have been told this for 25 years doing this.  If you were born here and went to Europe when you were 12, it was the development in Europe, if you came here when you were 12 and became a good player it's development there.   Nothing good can come from here, ever. It isn't allowed in the narrative that is Canadian soccer. 

I have not read the article, but what is the statistical likelihood that anyone doing anything here is 1st or 2nd generation.

[jonovision]

A few of Gladwell's books involve some real research and insight, but his analysis more often than not ranges from surface level to downright charlatan. He had a famous podcast appearance where he argued that Nigeria could assemble one of the best all-time basketball teams. It was risible. Summary here.

[Admin]

6 minutes ago, jonovision said:

A few of Gladwell's books involve some real research and insight, but his analysis more often than not ranges from surface level to downright charlatan. He had a famous podcast appearance where he argued that Nigeria could assemble one of the best all-time basketball teams. It was risible. Summary here.

Also, though I don't think this is his fault, chunks of the pop psych stuff did not survive the replication crisis in the social sciences.  Don't blame him for writing about it though, as much of it was fascinating.  It just wasn't true, but by all accounts at the time those papers were taken to be. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 minutes ago, Admin said:

Nothing good can be Canadian.  

I have been told this for 25 years doing this.  If you were born here and went to Europe when you were 12, it was the development in Europe, if you came here when you were 12 and became a good player it's development there.   Nothing good can come from here, ever. It isn't allowed in the narrative that is Canadian soccer. 

I have not read the article, but what is the statistical likelihood that anyone doing anything here is 1st or 2nd generation.

I have very close friends whose kids are 8th generation Canadian, and you are right: good for nothing bunch who don't do a thing.

[Admin]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, and purposely take the least charitable take on something like this... 

I assume Gladwell and others would come down with a sack of bricks on anyone who would point out that one person was less Canadian than another.  I would join them in principle on such a reaction. 

Does this not do this in a way?   What is the magic regression number of generations to make this critical categorical switch?   I personally deplore the idea of this categorical switch existing, but the very people promoting it are the opposite of the ones you think would actually care about this.  

I don't tend to read these things because they are often nothing more than pious 'lessons' for the people like me who are assumed to be terrible.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Getting very heavy on this thread. Anyone who has been around elite soccer in Canada knows it is a different crowd playing the sport than is the case with something like Junior B hockey or Intercounty Baseball. And, so what? Isn't Canada supposed to be more of a salad bowl than a melting pot? 

[Califax]

5 hours ago, theaub said:

I find this to be pretty tired analysis tbh (which is no surprise coming from Gladwell).

MNT has always had a significant base of first generation Canadians and/or players born in other soccer-mad countries.  Infrastructure and/or coaching is what has been missing and is slowly coming along now.

Yeah this is spot on. 
We were diverse when we sucked. 

 

If you wanna talk about the work done drawing on diverse experiences from coaching and people behind the scenes, cool. it has been arguably more important than our players. 

 

[SpecialK]

Why are we even focusing on this, immigration has had a huge impact on all nations in football. 
 

I hope the CSA has a team of high price immigration lawyers because we still have guys that are eligible to play for Canada. 

[Metro]

4 hours ago, AvroArrow said:

I think another thing to consider is that you now have a generation of kids who are now in their 40's and 50's who grew up playing soccer, and are now coaching.  This likely was not as common place in prior generations.  Not only do we potentially have a better system but we may also have better people to stock it with.

I am  a Gen Xer and I approve this message.

[Approve My Account Pls]

3 hours ago, jonovision said:

A few of Gladwell's books involve some real research and insight, but his analysis more often than not ranges from surface level to downright charlatan. He had a famous podcast appearance where he argued that Nigeria could assemble one of the best all-time basketball teams. It was risible. Summary here.

I know this isn't the discussion at hand, and Gladwell's defence of his argument was scattered too thin and messy to say the least. But their is a genuine argument to be made that if FIBA applied the same rules as FIFA, the current team Nigeria with a few American based players of Nigerian origin might be the second best nation on paper. Their current team did just have a pretty solid run in the last olympics

[Unnamed Trialist]

I agree that we have always had diversity, though we did have success the last time with a dominant British stock core. And we have also failed with diversity, in fact we gained in Caribbean stock, others, and still struggled. 

IMO the biggest factor is the connectedness of world football culture, partially through the internet and social media, partially how media meets demand for markets like soccer which were not that well articulated. Take that, and let a generation of kids grow up in it. This scenario especially benefits Canada, because we have a strong media culture, and we have the resources to respond to it. 

I realise I am not making the point that well. I just see how this newer generation feels it belongs to world football, moves in its upper echelons with relative comfort, challenges and inspires each other and does not feel at all it is in a soccer backwater. You could argue all nations in the world could see that, but not all all ready to respond. We are responding. 

Admit this is an ambiguous argument I am making. 

[kacbru]

A good example of mixing up causation and co-relation!  Although to be fair, a large proportion of the earlier immigrants came from the UK, where since the 1960s they preferred to talk about soccer rather than play it 😀