How Far Are We From A Soccer Nation?

[Cheeta]

Point made about coverage not being available on cable.  Don't think it's quite as much of a handicap as it would have been a decade ago.  I mean what household isn't subscribing to some streaming service?  Think you're more likely to find a household without cable.

That said, if it had to be one or the other still think the best place would be on cable.

[Ottawafan]

Easy answer never.  Doesn't mean the game can't find its lane.

[jhoops__]

How many people will watch our game vs Panama?  Even if it was on CBC or TSN the numbers would be much lower than a Blue Jays game, a direct summer competitor.   If we were an actual soccer nation a major broadcaster would scoop up the rights in a second as money rules the landscape…

[narduch]

4 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

How many people will watch our game vs Panama?  Even if it was on CBC or TSN the numbers would be much lower than a Blue Jays game, a direct summer competitor.   If we were an actual soccer nation a major broadcaster would scoop up the rights in a second as money rules the landscape…

In the US the games are being broadcast on Paramount+.

Just for some added context.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

45 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

How many people will watch our game vs Panama?  Even if it was on CBC or TSN the numbers would be much lower than a Blue Jays game, a direct summer competitor...

...but if it was vs Croatia in the World Cup again who would attract more? Beyond that the vast majority of avid baseball fans are going to tune in for a Jays game in southern Ontario but it's not a safe assumption that most avid soccer fans would do that for a CMNT or TFC game because a lot of the interest in soccer is in what is happening overseas.

[InglewoodJack]

I think it'll happen next generation, when kids who are 10 years old today have kids of their own. I think Hockey is on a downwards spiral and with Messi coming to town, unless MLS majorly fucks it up, Soccer will be America's #4 sport within 5 years easy and will be eating up hockey market share up here as well.

Dark to think about, but I think today's stars' best purpose is not to win trophies but to create fans whose children will experience a true golden generation. Replace the faded Italian and Portuguese soccer posters with Davies or David and have your kids grow up hearing about the magic of the world cup qualifiers or anything else we win over the next few years instead of such and such beautiful 2006 world cup moment.

Investments into soccer in the US are getting insane- I think Indy Eleven in the USL Championship are about to spend $1B on their stadium. Hard to think that Canada doesn't experience a halo effect that in 10-15 years leads us to something like a 15-18 team CPL with a few main giants who can draw around 10k and some MLS teams now with 40 years of history and kids whose parents take them to games not because it's cheap but because that was their club growing up.

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Kadenge said:

I totally agree with you on this. The fact that young Canadians cant watch pro soccer on regular TV channels is a real drawback...unless they have a family member that is already a soccer fan and  pays for streaming services. It's great that One Soccer came on board for the CPL but at some point hopefully one of TSN/SN start picking up at least some CPL games.  

But kids also aren't consuming sports the way we all used to. They watch it in highlight packages, not full games. This is across all sports, not just soccer.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Watchmen

[jhoops__]

7 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...but if it was vs Croatia in the World Cup again who would attract more? Beyond that the vast majority of avid baseball fans are going to tune in for a Jays game in southern Ontario but it's not a safe assumption that most avid soccer fans would do that for a CMNT or TFC game because a lot of the interest in soccer is in what is happening overseas.

Jays numbers nationally kill any soccer game in Canada.   

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

...Hard to think that Canada doesn't experience a halo effect that in 10-15 years leads us to something like a 15-18 team CPL with a few main giants who can draw around 10k and some MLS teams now with 40 years of history and kids whose parents take them to games not because it's cheap but because that was their club growing up.

Would be nice to think so but look at baseball in Canada. The Jays and then what? That's what we are supposed to be overawed by relative to soccer in terms of interest when there's almost nothing worth mentioning in Canada as pro level sports beyond the one MLB franchise. Sadly I think it's probably going to be difficult to make huge amounts of headway in interest terms against the big European clubs that now have a global audience even where MLS is concerned never mind CanPL, but that doesn't mean that soccer isn't going to be huge in overall interest terms. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

Jays numbers nationally kill any soccer game in Canada.   

If it's all focused on only one club while the soccer market is split many different ways that is not particularly surprising.

[Kent]

16 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think it'll happen next generation, when kids who are 10 years old today have kids of their own.

Anecdotally, I have started (in the last year) seeing young kids wearing Davies jerseys. Like on a random day where there is no game, I have seen a kid with a Davies jersey, granted only like 3 to 5 times in a year. I've seen an occasional Canada Soccer hat or shirt on grown ups too, again just a couple of times. I used to NEVER see anyone wearing merch, unless it was game day and I was on my way to the stadium.

It's baby steps, but we are making progress. Canada's first game of the 3rd round of World Cup Qualifying for 2014 was the same day as the opening game of the 2012 Euros. I worked at a sports TV station back then, and when I came in wearing a Canada jersey people looked at me confused why I would wear a Canada jersey for the Euros. They looked at me funny when I tuned one of the TVs to the Canada vs Cuba game. "I thought you were a soccer fan? Why aren't you watching the more important game?" I respond back saying "I'm Canadian, this IS the more important game." I don't work at a sports TV station anymore, but I feel I wouldn't get that reaction today.

[jhoops__]

This thread is asking how far Canada is from being a soccer nation…I’d say we are far from one and even though we have some  world class players the overall interest has either stagnated or marginally improved…

[Ottawafan]

13 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think it'll happen next generation, when kids who are 10 years old today have kids of their own. I think Hockey is on a downwards spiral and with Messi coming to town, unless MLS majorly fucks it up, Soccer will be America's #4 sport within 5 years easy and will be eating up hockey market share up here as well.

Dark to think about, but I think today's stars' best purpose is not to win trophies but to create fans whose children will experience a true golden generation. Replace the faded Italian and Portuguese soccer posters with Davies or David and have your kids grow up hearing about the magic of the world cup qualifiers or anything else we win over the next few years instead of such and such beautiful 2006 world cup moment.

Investments into soccer in the US are getting insane- I think Indy Eleven in the USL Championship are about to spend $1B on their stadium. Hard to think that Canada doesn't experience a halo effect that in 10-15 years leads us to something like a 15-18 team CPL with a few main giants who can draw around 10k and some MLS teams now with 40 years of history and kids whose parents take them to games not because it's cheap but because that was their club growing up.

What impact has our men’s NT had on the game over the last year or so?  When I go to youth soccer, nobody is wearing Canada gear. My son wears a Davies jersey or a WC shirt but that’s because I put it in his drawer. Other parents aren’t putting their kids in Canada soccer gear from what I’ve seen ( and talking to club coaches ) but they are all dressed in Messi or Ronaldo jerseys. 

[InglewoodJack]

22 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Would be nice to think so but look at baseball in Canada. The Jays and then what? That's what we are supposed to be overawed by relative to soccer in terms of interest when there's almost nothing worth mentioning in Canada as pro level sports beyond the one MLB franchise. Sadly I think it's probably going to be difficult to make huge amounts of headway in interest terms against the big European clubs that now have a global audience even where MLS is concerned never mind CanPL, but that doesn't mean that soccer isn't going to be huge in overall interest terms. 

I was a diehard Expos fan before I watched any other sport, so I get it with Baseball in canada, but soccer is different. Baseball was pushed back any attempt to acquire new fans since basically the early 80s- they've had two strikes (both which directly led to the departure of our other Canadian team), they turned the steroid era- one of the most exciting periods of baseball- into a disgrace, they have two of the all time greatest players (Trout & Shohei) on a garbage team with zero marketing behind them, etc.- I just think Baseball, like Golf is a sport run by old white guys who think their only audience is other old white guys. Soccer is aggressively the opposite- they want every young child on the globe to become a soccer fan and that's been pretty successful. If you were to project the next 10-25 years of Canadian society, more new Canadians are naturally gravitating towards soccer, children of those Canadians gravitate towards soccer, and as other sports like Hockey get too expensive to enjoy or even play, soccer fills that void too.

I think fans will gravitate towards big champions league teams forever- or at least until our clubs are pushing on a century of history and start directly competing with the giants which will happen- just not while any of us are around- but it doesn't mean that doesn't trickle down to domestic teams. I think back to how I started getting more actively into the sport and it was years of watching the national teams, friend eventually asking me to go to an IMFC game to check out the real thing, liking it, going again, bringing friends, them getting into it, bringing their kids, and all of a sudden you pick up some new fans.

I'm really thinking years into the future though. By the time Davies is our Atiba, I would hope that we're marching towards that goal.

Edited June 12, 2023 by InglewoodJack

[Aird25]

Do many young families actually still subscribe to cable? That's not at all my experience. Regardless, if we think we have it bad here, look across the pond. It'll cost you an arm and a leg just to watch the team you support in the UK.

Anecdotally, I must have seen 20 or so kids wearing soccer kits around Victoria this weekend. 3 Pacific, 2 Whitecaps, 1 Canada and the rest major European teams.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 minute ago, jhoops__ said:

This thread is asking how far Canada is from being a soccer nation…I’d say we are far from one and even though we have some  world class players the overall interest has either stagnated or marginally improved…

30 or 40 years ago backward rednecks in London, Ont used to tell me (before being told to **** off) that only ***s play soccer and I should go back to Scotland if I didn't want to assimilate by playing softball etc.

Nowadays people like that pretty much all have their kids playing house league soccer to some extent and may even have a favourite English premiership team even if they are not particularly fanatical about it. Sorry, but I think soccer is now very much part of the social fabric even if it isn't a universal passion. Basketball has come on by leaps and bounds in recent times as well.

Canada is changing and it's no longer (arguably never was) sensible to make sweeping statements about what Canadians do or don't do as if Peter Gzowski were setting the agenda that everybody must conform to on Morningside.  

[Joe MacCarthy]

I was watching one of those Youtube reaction channels.  It was a young woman from England who was watching a video called Greatest NHL Hits.  She was oohing and awwing and then said something that surprised me.  She said that the hockey players get up after a hit instead of rolling around the field like they do in soccer.

I believe that perception is ingrained in many people here.  But part of that is where you are located.  In the US, the stereotype is that middle America is different from the coasts.  In Canada, the stereotype is that much of the country is different than the GTA.  Generalizations, yes, but...

JMO, YMMV

[InglewoodJack]

10 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

What impact has our men’s NT had on the game over the last year or so?  When I go to youth soccer, nobody is wearing Canada gear. My son wears a Davies jersey or a WC shirt but that’s because I put it in his drawer. Other parents aren’t putting their kids in Canada soccer gear from what I’ve seen ( and talking to club coaches ) but they are all dressed in Messi or Ronaldo jerseys. 

Realistically, how long has Davies been a veritable Canadian celebrity that most Canadians should know about- 3 years? 4 max? It hasn't been that long in the grand scheme of things, not long enough to single handedly shift the sport's perception in the entire country. It'll take his entire career- or at the very least his prime- for kids to really start identifying with him. We're competing against generational emotional ties to teams which is why I don't think it takes one player or even a few years for things to change- it takes an entire generation.

Your son wears the Davies shirt because you gave it to him, and maybe he loves Davies, maybe he's just following what his dad likes (which is probably the #1 way any kid gets into a sport), but fast forward a decade and if you raised your son on CANMNT, that's what he's going to like, and that's what he'd pass down to his children. We're always going to compete for attention against players better than anyone our country has ever produced, playing for teams better than any team our country has ever produced, but if that 25 kid soccer team today has maybe 3 kids who love Davies, if in 20 years that soccer team has 10-15 kids who love whoever our stars of the day are, I'd consider that a success.

tl;dr it takes decades to grow the game and all we're doing today is laying the groundwork for the next generation and building the support infrastructure that this country never had. You can see this happening with basketball in Canada currently.

 

[Ottawafan]

14 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

30 or 40 years ago backward rednecks in London, Ont used to tell me (before being told to **** off) that only ***s play soccer and I should go back to Scotland if I didn't want to assimilate by playing softball etc.

Nowadays people like that pretty much all have their kids playing house league soccer to some extent and may even have a favourite English premiership team even if they are not particularly fanatical about it. Sorry, but I think soccer is now very much part of the social fabric even if it isn't a universal passion. Basketball has come on by leaps and bounds in recent times as well.

Canada is changing and it's no longer (arguably never was) sensible to make sweeping statements about what Canadians do or don't do as if Peter Gzowski were setting the agenda that everybody must conform to on Morningside.  

Loved that show!

Everyone and their brother/sister has been playing soccer for a longtime now.  But it hasn't translated into the game being bigger.  Obviously the viewing numbers were high last WC in Canada but it hasn't translated ( yet ) into higher attendance at pro games ( stil early in the season ).  Small sample size but the clubs here aren't reporting higher reg numbers either.

[Ottawafan]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Realistically, how long has Davies been a veritable Canadian celebrity that most Canadians should know about- 3 years? 4 max? It hasn't been that long in the grand scheme of things, not long enough to single handedly shift the sport's perception in the entire country. It'll take his entire career- or at the very least his prime- for kids to really start identifying with him. We're competing against generational emotional ties to teams which is why I don't think it takes one player or even a few years for things to change- it takes an entire generation.

Your son wears the Davies shirt because you gave it to him, and maybe he loves Davies, maybe he's just following what his dad likes (which is probably the #1 way any kid gets into a sport), but fast forward a decade and if you raised your son on CANMNT, that's what he's going to like, and that's what he'd pass down to his children. We're always going to compete for attention against players better than anyone our country has ever produced, playing for teams better than any team our country has ever produced, but if that 25 kid soccer team today has maybe 3 kids who love Davies, if in 20 years that soccer team has 10-15 kids who love whoever our stars of the day are, I'd consider that a success.

tl;dr it takes decades to grow the game and all we're doing today is laying the groundwork for the next generation and building the support infrastructure that this country never had. You can see this happening with basketball in Canada currently.

 

Davies is just the name on the back.  It's the national team jersey that hasn't been prominent anywhere, ever amongst the young cats.  Or with their parents.

I have a passion for the game, and have been involved in it for decades.  As such I am handing that down to my kids.  Non soccer fans tho aren't passing along their love to the game from a Canadian perspective.  They are still raising them as fans of Italy, England or France.

[SpursFlu]

Lots of trauma.. yes I feel that 

Baseball fans, hockey fans.. can you see me now?

[InglewoodJack]

20 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Davies is just the name on the back.  It's the national team jersey that hasn't been prominent anywhere, ever amongst the young cats.  Or with their parents.

I have a passion for the game, and have been involved in it for decades.  As such I am handing that down to my kids.  Non soccer fans tho aren't passing along their love to the game from a Canadian perspective.  They are still raising them as fans of Italy, England or France.

Currently, yes, but the hope/goal is to change that over time. I think a Davies Bayern jersey is every bit as good for the game as a Davies Canada jersey (also because the latter barely even exists). Anecdotally, the friend who started taking me to games years ago grew up in a Crystal Palace (go figure) household, started going to IMFC games way back in the late '00s because tickets were like $3 and a ball of lint, and now he, his brothers, their children, all IMFC lifers. I mean, the man still prays on Ballou Tabla's downfall because he trained in a TFC jersey that one time. Our friend who's been a eurosnob forever recently traded in the Denmark jersey he'd wear twice a week for a new Mathieu Choiniere jersey because we started taking him to games. Another friend of ours who doesn't watch sports at all came to a game last month because his plans fell through and left the stadium with a scarf and a promise to return. Super isolated examples, but if I've got two friends who become fans of Canadian soccer and they have two friends, and those two friends have two of their own... extrapolate that to a decade or two and all of a sudden we're really seeing a lift. We're always going to compete with the giants, but as Canadians develop that cultural affinity for soccer, it spreads, and eventually we'll look back at decades of slow progress and see how much closer we are to being a veritable soccer nation.

[Ottawafan]

13 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Currently, yes, but the hope/goal is to change that over time. I think a Davies Bayern jersey is every bit as good for the game as a Davies Canada jersey (also because the latter barely even exists). Anecdotally, the friend who started taking me to games years ago grew up in a Crystal Palace (go figure) household, started going to IMFC games way back in the late '00s because tickets were like $3 and a ball of lint, and now he, his brothers, their children, all IMFC lifers. I mean, the man still prays on Ballou Tabla's downfall because he trained in a TFC jersey that one time. Our friend who's been a eurosnob forever recently traded in the Denmark jersey he'd wear twice a week for a new Mathieu Choiniere jersey because we started taking him to games. Another friend of ours who doesn't watch sports at all came to a game last month because his plans fell through and left the stadium with a scarf and a promise to return. Super isolated examples, but if I've got two friends who become fans of Canadian soccer and they have two friends, and those two friends have two of their own... extrapolate that to a decade or two and all of a sudden we're really seeing a lift. We're always going to compete with the giants, but as Canadians develop that cultural affinity for soccer, it spreads, and eventually we'll look back at decades of slow progress and see how much closer we are to being a veritable soccer nation.

I am not poo poo'ing it and 100% I want it to continue to grow.  Just think it will take a little longer for it to become more mainstream but will never reach lofty heights.  I don't overly worry about where the status is in this country.  Focus on what you can.

[Rivaldo]

On 6/10/2023 at 7:59 PM, red card said:

CBC was never a player in club football other than showing some TFC matches in their early years. CBC shouldn't be expected to carry Champions League given no Canadian teams.

TSN being outbid by DAZN for Champions League increased the market value - good for the business of football in Canada. TSN couldn’t extract full value from Champions League since they sub-licensed many matches to beIN. Being shifted over to a streaming platform was more a function of others investing first and more in streaming than Bell/Rogers, more suitable business model given fragmented/non prime time viewership and streaming entrants not being subject to foreign ownership restriction rules.

DAZN believed Canada was already or at least becoming a football nation. Canada wanted to watch and was willing to pay for it (with many cord cutting). DAZN’s market penetration also showed the way for other foreign-owned football focused media firms to Canada like fubo, Mediapro, Fanatiz, OneFootball, atafootball etc..

Now, Canadians can watch at least one football match nearly everyday over 70 leagues/tourneys on linear tv/streaming. It becomes everyday across countless competitions when you add in all the free live streams on FIFA+ & Youtube.

Long ago the CBC used to show the FA Cup, but I agree. They shouldn't be showing the UEFA competitions.

DAZN paying more than Canadian channels would for the Champions League was good for UEFA, and it shows that DAZN thinks there is a significant market for it in Canada (although DAZN has made many mistakes), but I don't see how it's good for the business of football in Canada.

 

 

[InglewoodJack]

10 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I am not poo poo'ing it and 100% I want it to continue to grow.  Just think it will take a little longer for it to become more mainstream but will never reach lofty heights.  I don't overly worry about where the status is in this country.  Focus on what you can.

What I have in mind is us getting to a similar level to a country like Sweden or Korea. Top 20 team, lots of players in top leagues, respectable domestic leagues at a decent talent level that also produce a ton of players, solid attendance, competes admirably with hockey/baseball respectively, baseline level is a national team that is a tough game, but with the right generation of players, they can really knock down some good teams, etc.

Interestingly enough, Korea qualified for the 1954 World Cup, then nothing for a long time. They created their domestic league in 1983, qualified for the 1986 world cup and since then, have qualified for 11 straight tournaments, hosted one where they reached the quarters, they have some really good players at really good teams, etc. We launched the CPL in 2019, made the very next world cup, hosting the one coming up... why can't we do what Korea did?