How Far Are We From A Soccer Nation?

[gigi riva]

On 11/24/2023 at 5:16 PM, Watchmen said:

Well, my understanding is that all sports are sort of losing out. That kids have very much shifted to watching only highlights on tiktok/YouTube/whatever, rather than full games of anything.

And you can say Adults too in a way 

[gigi riva]

11 minutes ago, gigi riva said:

And you can say Adults too in a way 

sadly

[Bigandy]

10 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I don't really follow other nations so I don't have direct comparisons but I'd say we're a long, long ways from being a soccer nation. Even the most committed fans are divided on how best to start and who to support, and that funnels down through every level. There's absolutely no cohesion in this country when it comes to soccer. Reading this forum must be comical for anyone that isn't invested. 

I participate on a dutch forum as well and let me tell you that this forum is 1000000x better. Sure we have some odd takes or some debates but overall, this forum supports our program and talks about soccer.  

The dutch blog is 90% of the time ripping on daley blind, the coach and general chicken little doom and gloom. Provide an in depth analysis of blinds passing progression statistics and how vital he is to most of the attacks of oranje and youll unleash anarchy.  

Im not disagreeing with you about being a soccer nation but this forum is so so so much better than dutch ones. 

[Ottawafan]

I have been a part of soccer in this country for over 40 years.  The level of play, development and coaching has risen over that time.  But we are still miles behind where we need to be.  Until CPL squads have their own youth squads and local clubs work with feeding their players into the CPL youth system, Canada will never progress.

Way too much talent is being let down without the proper resources.

[Bigandy]

Although I firmly agree that the CPL clubs need youth teams, what level would they play at? u15 and under plays in the highest youth league nearby with friendlies against local MLS/CPL youth teams (if nearby). Then u15 and above goes into league 1....?

Sure a cpl club may have slightly better resources but a youth player could play for TSS rovers and then work their way onto pacific FC in a very similar path as if they started in the CPL academy. 

The geography of canada makes youth teams tough. Even in smaller european countries, youth teams are usually split up by regions. It is foolish to think we could sustain many youth age groups in the CPL unless they are geographically based. 

[Ottawafan]

Didn't say there aren't challenges.  The current youth system does not work for what the NT and pro clubs need.

The biggest issue is the lack of skills, understanding how to use those skills and identifying those skills.  Our touch, our ball skills and passing/where to pass lacks.  Players and clubs U13/14 and below should be focused squarely on that. 

CPL clubs can play a vital role in this.  In theory, they should have higher level coaches who have coached in youth programs around the world.  They need to be part of the grassroots development model.  But the reality is the bigger local clubs won't be interested in a helping hand.  They are primarily focused on their own path, instead of the path for the game in Canada.

Edit:  Can't be overly focused on fixing the problems at the U15 age level and up until the lower ones are working properly.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Ottawafan

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

I have been a part of soccer in this country for over 40 years.  The level of play, development and coaching has risen over that time.  But we are still miles behind where we need to be.  Until CPL squads have their own youth squads and local clubs work with feeding their players into the CPL youth system, Canada will never progress.

Way too much talent is being let down without the proper resources.

Don't most CPL teams already have youth squads (i.e. Sigma, Foothills, Vancouver Island Wave etc)?

[Ottawafan]

1 minute ago, Aird25 said:

Don't most CPL teams already have youth squads (i.e. Sigma, Foothills, Vancouver Island Wave etc)?

More like affiliations.  I know from talking to a Pacific coach, they just started their own.

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Don't most CPL teams already have youth squads (i.e. Sigma, Foothills, Vancouver Island Wave etc)?

I think it depends. Foothills is an affiliation but Cavlary have a u23 team in league 1 and amsl before that. Oddly enough foothills is also in league 1. 

[Aird25]

5 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

More like affiliations.  I know from talking to a Pacific coach, they just started their own.

What do you mean? Pacific took over Wave in 2020, and it's under their control as far as I know. Aren't a bunch of the coaches former Pacific players?

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

Didn't say there aren't challenges.  The current youth system does not work for what the NT and pro clubs need.

The biggest issue is the lack of skills, understanding how to use those skills and identifying those skills.  Our touch, our ball skills and passing/where to pass lacks.  Players and clubs U13/14 and below should be focused squarely on that. 

CPL clubs can play a vital role in this.  In theory, they should have higher level coaches who have coached in youth programs around the world.  They need to be part of the grassroots development model.  But the reality is the bigger local clubs won't be interested in a helping hand.  They are primarily focused on their own path, instead of the path for the game in Canada.

Edit:  Can't be overly focused on fixing the problems at the U15 age level and up until the lower ones are working properly.

For sure and I agree with you. However, breaking down the possible realistic solutions and its tough to say that CPL academies are the lowest hanging fruit. I would love for it to happen but aside from a u21 team, its hard to see a full fledged academy for several years. The creation of league 1 is far more easy to attain and has much more value per resource (maybe not the most ideal outcome). 

[Aird25]

29 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think it depends. Foothills is an affiliation but Cavlary have a u23 team in league 1 and amsl before that. Oddly enough foothills is also in league 1. 

Okay, but they're definitely feeding talent into the CPL system, which is what was identified as needing to happen

[Ottawafan]

37 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

For sure and I agree with you. However, breaking down the possible realistic solutions and its tough to say that CPL academies are the lowest hanging fruit. I would love for it to happen but aside from a u21 team, its hard to see a full fledged academy for several years. The creation of league 1 is far more easy to attain and has much more value per resource (maybe not the most ideal outcome). 

Should have a U16/U18 programs.  Make them two year age brackets. 

The bigger focus needs to be in developing the ball skills at the 5-13 age groups.  What we as Canadian coaches look for and what the higher level clubs and coaches ( outside of Canada ) look for are two different things.  We can see that whenever we play at the U17 age levels internationally.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Ottawafan

[Ottawafan]

38 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think it depends. Foothills is an affiliation but Cavlary have a u23 team in league 1 and amsl before that. Oddly enough foothills is also in league 1. 

Essentially their second team?

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

Okay, but they're definitely feeding talent into the CPL system, which is what was identified as needing to happen

100%. Im with you, but sharing my knowledge of technicalities in the foothills example. 

 

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

Essentially their second team?

Correct but with u21 constraints (loosely- callum montgomery played). Foothills could also be viewed as a weird version of their second team with some older guys on it (pipegrass and moe el gandour). Loturi played cavalry u21 in amsl before going onto cavalry as have others. 

 

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

Should have a U16/U18 programs.  Make them two year age brackets. 

The bigger focus needs to be in developing the ball skills at the 5-13 age groups.  What we as Canadian coaches look for and what the higher level clubs and coaches ( outside of Canada ) look for are two different things.  We can see that whenever we play at the U17 age levels internationally.

That seems counter intuitive. With limited resources, its best to create 1 u21 team instead of u16 and u18. Who would the u16 and u18s play. At least with a u21 team you can play league 1 where you have a bunch of youngsters around 17. 

Its just so diffivult to say we need a u16and u18 team but thats not even a priority. the priority is 5-13 age groups. So now we need 5ish teams minimum per cpl club... thats so tough.  Although I do agree that we need kids getting ball skills younger, I dont agree the practical solutions is to create cpl academies to do so.  

[Aird25]

11 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

100%. Im with you, but sharing my knowledge of technicalities in the foothills example.

Cheers, Pacific also had an affiliation with Nautsa'mawt FC in L1BC, but it sounds like they're already folding

[Bigandy]

14 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Cheers, Pacific also had an affiliation with Nautsa'mawt FC in L1BC, but it sounds like they're already folding

Thats too bad. Im expecting some bigger things out of highlanders. Last I heard, Thomas niendorf is the managing director and at one point he was responsible for the development of a huge part of CMNT with his biggest success being owen hargreaves. 

[Kent]

Coaching education at every level and a culture of playing with your friends in your free time would be much, much more effective than the CPL clubs starting academies (but of course there is nothing we can do to make kids play soccer with their friends).

As we have seen with the MLS teams, your coach having a pro club logo on his badge doesn't magically make you a better player than a coach from some other club. If you really think about it, let's say these hypothetical CPL academies went down to the U13 level. What are the odds that a player joining the academy at 12 years old will end up on the CPL senior team, let alone the CMNT? Let's say you have 20 guys on the team at the U13 level. Some drop out, some end up getting cut later on for someone else being better than them, and even the best of the best that make it all the way to the end might not be good enough to displace whoever is in the senior team. These academy teams would be playing teams in a local (at least provincial) league. If I had to guess who would make it to the CPL in the long run, one of the 20 guys * 8 teams = 160 guys on an academy team or one of the thousands of players playing in the same leagues but on other teams, I'd put my money on the bigger pool of players.

It would possibly be more useful if house leagues had a policy of having practices instead of just games, and a curriculum for the coaches to run through with the kids. For the higher levels, tactical coaching education across the board (not just pro club academy coaches) would be important.

But I don't really know, I'm talking out of my rear end. I have kids in house league soccer, and I haven't been in youth soccer for almost 30 years now. But this is what comes to mind when I am watching our teams often having a looser control of the ball, and often being outnumbered all over the pitch due to a poor team shape. Especially at the youth national team levels.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Kent
I meant to say looser, not loser.

[shermanator]

3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Don't most CPL teams already have youth squads (i.e. Sigma, Foothills, Vancouver Island Wave etc)?

Cavalry essentially have two teams in League1 Alberta; Calgary Foothills serves as its U23 team while Cavalry U21 serves as the U21 side. They also have a club program where they work with youth clubs in Calgary and surrounding area. I want to say they partner with 14 clubs in the area? 

There's no real reason for them to establish their own academy when they are already pulling the best players from youth clubs in the area. By launching League1 Alberta, Cavalry, Foothills, SW United and Blizzard are raising the standard as a whole and giving other clubs in the area motivation to raise the standard over time.

This is from 2021 so it is outdated as it references AMSL and USL2 instead of League1 Alberta but this is the general idea.

[Obinna]

30 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Cavalry essentially have two teams in League1 Alberta; Calgary Foothills serves as its U23 team while Cavalry U21 serves as the U21 side. They also have a club program where they work with youth clubs in Calgary and surrounding area. I want to say they partner with 14 clubs in the area? 

There's no real reason for them to establish their own academy when they are already pulling the best players from youth clubs in the area. By launching League1 Alberta, Cavalry, Foothills, SW United and Blizzard are raising the standard as a whole and giving other clubs in the area motivation to raise the standard over time.

This is from 2021 so it is outdated as it references AMSL and USL2 instead of League1 Alberta but this is the general idea.

I don't think the official League 1 Alberta alignment is out yet, but I believe it will be 6 teams, including 3 Calgary area teams. 

I believe one of those teams will be Foothills and I would assume they remain the defacto U23 team for Cavalry.

I was told another team will be Callies and they will be aligned with SWU at the youth level, since League 1 clubs need a youth club affiliation.

...But I cannot recall who the 3rd will be. Will it be Cavalry U21? I seem to recall being told it may be someone like Blizzards entering a senior team, but don't quote me on that.

[shermanator]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I don't think the official League 1 Alberta alignment is out yet, but I believe it will be 6 teams, including 3 Calgary area teams. 

I believe one of those teams will be Foothills and I would assume they remain the defacto U23 team for Cavalry.

I was told another team will be Callies and they will be aligned with SWU at the youth level, since League 1 clubs need a youth club affiliation.

...But I cannot recall who the 3rd will be. Will it be Cavalry U21? I seem to recall being told it may be someone like Blizzards entering a senior team, but don't quote me on that.

League1 Alberta announced participating clubs for 2024 this morning.

From Calgary there will be Cavalry U21, Calgary Foothills, Calgary SW United and Calgary Blizzard. From Edmonton there will be St Albert Impact, Edmonton Scottish and BTB.

[Obinna]

Just now, shermanator said:

League1 Alberta announced participating clubs for 2024 this morning.

From Calgary there will be Cavalry U21, Calgary Foothills, Calgary SW United and Calgary Blizzard. From Edmonton there will be St Albert Impact, Edmonton Scottish and BTB.

Awesome, thanks for letting me know.

I assume SWU decided to go it alone or maybe Callies wanted to remain in AMSL or maybe both. Either way, exciting to have another layer on the pyramid. Lord knows we need more of it.

Next step in my opinion is to beef up League 1 and CPL with respect to player salaries. It's all well and good to add layers to the pyramid, but without sufficient pay it will always be glorified amateur ball and at risk of falling apart. 

I think the top pay for a League 1 player is 5k for the summer and as we know it's only a small fraction of players on any given team getting paid.

I am less worried about CPL salaries going up with time than I am with League 1. If anything I can see CPL having to subsidize League 1.

[Bigandy]

16 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Awesome, thanks for letting me know.

I assume SWU decided to go it alone or maybe Callies wanted to remain in AMSL or maybe both. Either way, exciting to have another layer on the pyramid. Lord knows we need more of it.

Next step in my opinion is to beef up League 1 and CPL with respect to player salaries. It's all well and good to add layers to the pyramid, but without sufficient pay it will always be glorified amateur ball and at risk of falling apart. 

I think the top pay for a League 1 player is 5k for the summer and as we know it's only a small fraction of players on any given team getting paid.

I am less worried about CPL salaries going up with time than I am with League 1. If anything I can see CPL having to subsidize League 1.

You're talking like this is new but league 1 alberta ran last year with blizzards and SWU joining today. It's interesting that these 2 clubs have cavalry affiliations and are now in league 1. Tommy really built up an empire with foothills, got a pro team, and is now pulling along the other clubs. 

Whats a bit sad is that you can get paid substantially more in BC mens league VMSL,FVSL, fiji league, nations league tournament, than in league 1. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Bigandy

[shermanator]

I don't know how people expect there to be sufficient salaries in League1 when they get a few hundred spectators at best. How much money do you want youth clubs to light on fire when building these leagues? 

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

You're talking like this is new but league 1 alberta ran last year with blizzards and SWU joining today. . 

I am confused by what you mean here. Last year they ran an exhibition series and Blizzards and SWU are now on board for the first season. Am I missing something?

3 minutes ago, shermanator said:

I don't know how people expect there to be sufficient salaries in League1 when they get a few hundred spectators at best. How much money do you want youth clubs to light on fire when building these leagues? 

I mean, the reality is that we cannot expect them to have sufficient salaries. I was just pointing out we need them to eventually, but that is a decade out at least. We need League 1 to survive until then.

I imagine part of the solution is going to have to be trickle down from CPL or CSB (CSA?) because that is where the crowds and dollars are. 

I believe AMSL plays on a regionalized schedule to save on travel costs, so we may see that in League 1 Alberta too.