How Far Are We From A Soccer Nation?

[Watchmen]

Just now, BearcatSA said:

FYP

Ha, fair.

[CanadaFan123]

7 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Dude, we literally held a "hockey summit" in 1998 after finishing 4th at the Olympics, 2nd in Women's hockey, and (gasp!) 8th at the World Juniors.  Then won Gold in 2002, were dismal in 2006 (after which a number of the selection committee stepped down), and won Gold again in 2010 and 2014 (and 2016, if you want to count that).  There hasn't been a call for the heads of hockey Canada to step down because we dominated at best on best for 14 years and then stopped going to events.

After 36 years being away from the biggest tournament in the World, Canada drew an audience of 4.4 million vs Croatia, narrowly edging out Toronto vs Tampa round 1 game 7 at 4.1m.  I'd look up how non-WC Canada events draw, but most of them are locked behind a streaming service because there's not enough national interest most of the time to draw a payment from a cable company.

You’re moving goalposts here mentioning events 25 years ago when most of our men’s national team wasn’t born and now talking about NHL ratings. 
 

I’m talking about men’s senior national teams in the year 2023. Of course it goes without saying that a best on best men’s tournament would blow everything out of the water but the point is that no one, or very few people, cares about the current men’s national hockey team. 
 

Edit: this actually brought me a bunch of nostalgia. I loved when international best on best hockey was a thing and it would be better than ever with the rises of Germany, Switzerland. Shame the NHL doesn’t want to grow the game unless it’s lining their pockets. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by CanadaFan123

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, CanadaFan123 said:

You’re moving goalposts here mentioning events 25 years ago when most of our men’s national team wasn’t born and now talking about NHL ratings. 

I’m talking about men’s senior national teams in the year 2023. Of course it goes without saying that a best on best men’s tournament would blow everything out of the water but the point is that no one, or very few people, cares about the current men’s national hockey team. 

Because you're obsessing about the World Hockey Championships, a B level event where the GM, coach, and players are different every single year and nobody considers it "the current men’s team" because the best players are never available for it.

You've come to a forum where the sole point of it is for Canadian soccer fans to congregate and obsess over the teams. Outside of this type of bubble, most people do not care about the men’s team results.

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Because you're obsessing about the World Hockey Championships, a B level event where the GM, coach, and players are different every single year and nobody considers it "the current men’s team" because the best players are never available for it.

You've come to a forum where the sole point of it is for Canadian soccer fans to congregate and obsess over the teams. Outside of this type of bubble, most people do not care about the men’s team results.

I’m not obsessing about anything. The reality is that world hockey championships is the current men’s competition that Canada competes in. The reality is that no one cares about men’s international ice hockey anymore unless it’s at a junior level. 

[Watchmen]

27 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I’m not obsessing about anything. The reality is that world hockey championships is the current men’s competition that Canada competes in. The reality is that no one cares about men’s international ice hockey anymore unless it’s at a junior level. 

I guess you're going to be in for a real shock the next time there's a best on best hockey tournament. We're already getting line up projections for the proposed 2025 tournament.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/predicting-a-2025-team-canada-world-cup-roster#:~:text=There'll be some new,and Stamkos%2C and Bedard centering

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/projecting-team-canadas-roster-for-expected-2025-world-cup-of-hockey/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10087489-way-too-early-projected-team-canada-roster-for-the-2025-world-cup-of-hockey

[red card]

On 11/4/2023 at 9:51 PM, red card said:

Scuffed & Tactical Manager collabed on a couple interviews about how US youth development is broken. They say there are no short cut solutions. It won't change in 10 or 20 years. 

The main difference in views is that TM believes US is lacking pickup culture while Scuffed believes a bit better coaching is needed so that there isn't a huge skills gap when they play pickup. u14+ development is fine in the US. If coaching is a little better, a 6 year old can be comfortable with the ball by age 10.

With TM being from Brasil, he compares and contrast the differences between a football nation and not a football nation. Many of the issues cited by both are also hurdles to Canada becoming a soccer nation.

Pay-to-Play can't be improved or fixed. Bleak. Counterproductive. Win at all cost mentality keeps parents paying big bucks happy but completely useless for developing pro players, making the national team better and making MLS more competitive. Coaches pick bigger and faster kids to get 1-0 win at u10 rather than try to develop 1 player that makes it into the pros.

Players arrive at u13 MLS academies far behind other countries. Youth systems elsewhere compete for best players while US clubs compete for who can pay the most. The business model is wrong. Even with 40 MLS academies, it won't be enough. Without pro/rel, there aren't business incerntives to fix it. 

FIFA solidarity payments are largely unknown by youth club admins/coaches. Clubs are designed to get players a college scholarship but only 1 or 2 get it. Solidarity payments need to be higher than what parents pay to start change. 

People in power at youth clubs don't understand that free academies aren't charities. They don't understand the global footbal economy of investing in a player for future jersey sales, playing pro, getting sponsors and getting transfer payments.

Main thrust for both is stop making kids fall out of love for the game due to overcoaching or poor coaching despite good intentions. Too many coaches don’t realize that letting kids just play is teaching them. Be the adult in the room but not the coach. USSF grassroots training for coaching is also too high of barrier with 2 hour webinars. 

Many things Brasilian kids learn is from unorganized play. In Brasil, boys play football, swim, eat bbq and then repeat all day long. 

American culture puts kids into soccer even though parents don’t particularly like or don’t know soccer. Can these kids from non-soccer loving families be able to play pick up soccer by 7. Can they rondo by 10?

When you ask Americans how they fell in love with the sport, they usually refer to a specific moment like Donovan's WC goal vs Algeria. For Brasilians, they don’t know the answer as it has always been the case. Their fathers gave them a ball at age 3. So in Brasil, kids have a base understanding of soccer and skillsets that the game flows even among 7 year olds. But you don’t see that in the US. 

Teach a kid to love soccer. Then they’ll teach their kid to love it. It’s generational flywheel effect to match where basketball is in the US. More people who love soccer. More kids who learn soccer at an earlier age. If you’re first touch of the ball is at 8, you probably won’t be a pro soccer player. Maybe get to college.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/443-tactical-manager-joins-the-pod-to-talk-grassroots/id1352231546?i=1000632743986

 

Steven Sandor did the Cdn version of this post the Jamaica match.

Let's be honest. The #CanMNT success (getting to WC 2022) was kinda like the Iceland blip. It's more about demographic luck (having 3-4 elite players all born within a couple of years of each other) than a systemic awakening. 

We still have all the systemic issues that existed pre-Davies/David/Eustaquio. And that goes right down to the grassroots. Instead of moaning about who should coach a #CanMNT, take in a club youth match. 

We don't teach kids fundamental skills. We have volunteers who don't have enough coaching instruction making selections on who should be moving up, moving down, going to Tier 1, etc. 

Our club's technical director said that, as a Canadian player, when he first encountered European coaches they could not believe the lack of acquired skills in CDN players. That they don't learn how to pass to the proper foot. That the term "half turn" leads to puzzled faces 

But we go down this path over and over by telling kids to be fast and strong and keep their heads down and take on three defenders at a time and hope one in a 1000 turns into a player 

We don't value soccer IQ at all in this country. At all. I have seen rep coaches yell at players for passing backwards, when all that player was doing was trying to keep possession. It's like they just take hockey and say "let's apply it to soccer!" 

We don't have the facilities for the kids to get the training time they need. My daughter is in Tier 1, and she has one game, two training sessions a week. Not the club's fault, it's the lack of availability of training space in a metro area of 1.5 M 
Can the #CanPL help? Sure. But, we need to focus on the system a lot further down the line. 

As well, there's the clash between parents and coaches and technical directors. It's crazy. You have some clubs run like, well, clubs, and some where the community/house league mentality takes over. Take as many kids as you can, practice once a week. 

Parents want their kids to be in top tiers, but then gripe about the amount of practice time. It always seems to be a race to the middle. 

Honestly, I am not worried about WC 2026 at all. It will be nice to show well there, but it's going to have no real bearing on the future of the program. What will have bearing is how we fix the bottom rungs of the ladder. 

 

[Kadenge]

Wasn't JDV tasked with revamping the grassroots program before he was made GS?

[CanadaFan123]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I guess you're going to be in for a real shock the next time there's a best on best hockey tournament. We're already getting line up projections for the proposed 2025 tournament.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/predicting-a-2025-team-canada-world-cup-roster#:~:text=There'll be some new,and Stamkos%2C and Bedard centering

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/projecting-team-canadas-roster-for-expected-2025-world-cup-of-hockey/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10087489-way-too-early-projected-team-canada-roster-for-the-2025-world-cup-of-hockey

I’m not in for a shock as I’ve said best on best would likely surpass anything. Hopefully it happens. 
 

If it’s not Olympics it’s not going to surpass the 2026 World Cup though. Let’s be real - the World Cup of hockey is awful.  If Canada loses in that tournament no one will care. I doubt even most hardcore hockey fans could even tell you what happened in 2016. 2004 was alright as it was right before the lockout so teams were committed. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by CanadaFan123

[InglewoodJack]

Funny- I was reading some stuff about hockey earlier today; Ovechkin said that he and Crosby are responsible for saving hockey, and that spun into a discussion about how now that those two are wrapping up their careers (among other things from the ~05-20 era), hockey just isn’t as exciting as it used to be. Saw a bunch of comments about how young kids don’t love the game as much as they used to and most kids in elementary school don’t even follow hockey anymore. I guess what I’m getting at, is assuming kids didn’t suddenly stop loving sports, what are these kids watching if it’s not soccer? Maybe we are a soccer nation, but we won’t see it now, we’ll see it when the kids who are 10 years old now get into their 20s. 
 

Checks out with my own experience- we don’t have many children in my family anymore, but speaking to my cousin’s kids who are all high school age, those kids love Mbappe and CR7 and play FIFA after school, they don’t watch any hockey. 

[Watchmen]

8 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

 I guess what I’m getting at, is assuming kids didn’t suddenly stop loving sports, what are these kids watching if it’s not soccer?

Basketball

[Watchmen]

9 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I’m not in for a shock as I’ve said best on best would likely surpass anything. Hopefully it happens. 
 

If it’s not Olympics it’s not going to surpass the 2026 World Cup though. Let’s be real - the World Cup of hockey is awful.  If Canada loses in that tournament no one will care. I doubt even most hardcore hockey fans could even tell you what happened in 2016. 2004 was alright as it was right before the lockout so teams were committed. 

When Canada loses in the Gold Cup, nobody outside this forum cares.

[CanadaFan123]

1 minute ago, Watchmen said:

When Canada loses in the Gold Cup, nobody outside this forum cares.

Right - I would compare the gold cup to the world hockey championships. We don’t disagree on any points so I’m not sure how this is dragging on. 
 

The simple fact remains, the men’s national soccer team is the most cared about men’s national team in Canada. Go in google and type “Canada national team”, or go to twitter and see how many people are discussing Canadian men’s soccer vs the men’s national hockey team. Certainly doesn’t hurt that CanMNT has the biggest Canadian athlete on their team.  
 

It’s not exactly a groundbreaking achievement considering the competition and state of men’s international ice hockey but it is a fact. Hence why there is a battle going on over $ in the sport. 

[Watchmen]

6 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Right - I would compare the gold cup to the world hockey championships. We don’t disagree on any points so I’m not sure how this is dragging on. 
 

The simple fact remains, the men’s national soccer team is the most cared about men’s national team in Canada. Go in google and type “Canada national team”, or go to twitter and see how many people are discussing Canadian men’s soccer vs the men’s national hockey team. Certainly doesn’t hurt that CanMNT has the biggest Canadian athlete on their team.  
 

It’s not exactly a groundbreaking achievement considering the competition and state of men’s international ice hockey but it is a fact. Hence why there is a battle going on over $ in the sport. 

Yes, as long as hockey continues to not hold major international events, then Canada soccer wins by default. Congrats.  And as soon as it does, 4 times as many people will care about hockey as cared about the soccer team at it's peak. 2010 Olympics at 16m vs WC at 4m. 

[InglewoodJack]

3 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Yes, as long as hockey continues to not hold major international events, then Canada soccer wins by default. Congrats.  And as soon as it does, 4 times as many people will care about hockey as cared about the soccer team at it's peak. 2010 Olympics at 16m vs WC at 4m. 

I said all of that, and not 5 minutes later I came across a video of a Rocket League eSports event at a high school with 1000 kids in attendance acting like they’re at a Red Star game, so perhaps both hockey and soccer will lose out to the machines. 

[Watchmen]

10 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I said all of that, and not 5 minutes later I came across a video of a Rocket League eSports event at a high school with 1000 kids in attendance acting like they’re at a Red Star game, so perhaps both hockey and soccer will lose out to the machines. 

Well, my understanding is that all sports are sort of losing out. That kids have very much shifted to watching only highlights on tiktok/YouTube/whatever, rather than full games of anything.

[TOcanadafan]

2 hours ago, Kadenge said:

Wasn't JDV tasked with revamping the grassroots program before he was made GS?

What I took from the latest Footy Prime podcast, it’s a very temporary role for JDV and he will be able to focus on his actual task when a General Secretary is hired.

[CanadaFan123]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Yes, as long as hockey continues to not hold major international events, then Canada soccer wins by default. Congrats.  And as soon as it does, 4 times as many people will care about hockey as cared about the soccer team at it's peak. 2010 Olympics at 16m vs WC at 4m. 

No doubt about that. One team will be playing to win the tournament. Surely if our MNT makes even a quarter final they’ll get that number. 

[Watchmen]

.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Watchmen

[h coach]

3 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Funny- I was reading some stuff about hockey earlier today; Ovechkin said that he and Crosby are responsible for saving hockey, and that spun into a discussion about how now that those two are wrapping up their careers (among other things from the ~05-20 era), hockey just isn’t as exciting as it used to be. Saw a bunch of comments about how young kids don’t love the game as much as they used to and most kids in elementary school don’t even follow hockey anymore. I guess what I’m getting at, is assuming kids didn’t suddenly stop loving sports, what are these kids watching if it’s not soccer? Maybe we are a soccer nation, but we won’t see it now, we’ll see it when the kids who are 10 years old now get into their 20s. 
 

Checks out with my own experience- we don’t have many children in my family anymore, but speaking to my cousin’s kids who are all high school age, those kids love Mbappe and CR7 and play FIFA after school, they don’t watch any hockey. 

I coached 2 of my kids, 10 years apart, competitive U10.  Youngest is now 26. The quality of players in the 2nd kid’s cohort were much better players and more knowledgeable about World Soccer than the older kid’s peers. I think that reflects in the quality of our present younger Natl Team members and in 10 years time it will be even much better. Also I think there is a lot of great stuff being done developing kids soccer skills in some places… and some great grassroots coaches.

[SoccMan]

9 hours ago, h coach said:

I coached 2 of my kids, 10 years apart, competitive U10.  Youngest is now 26. The quality of players in the 2nd kid’s cohort were much better players and more knowledgeable about World Soccer than the older kid’s peers. I think that reflects in the quality of our present younger Natl Team members and in 10 years time it will be even much better. Also I think there is a lot of great stuff being done developing kids soccer skills in some places… and some great grassroots coaches.

Totally agree with this, it’s definitely changing kids I find are more skillful today than even 10 years ago . The coaching is better and improving . Of course at the house league level you still get parents with no real experience in the game coaching , however, once you go to the higher levels of rep soccer you will find a lot more knowledgeable coaches . It’s going to unfortunately take more time but slowly and surely we will get there.  I know it might not seem that way presently but youth soccer today has improved and the quality and knowledge of the coaching and even the young kids playing has improved. There still needs to be a lot more changes at the grass roots youth soccer level don’t get me wrong but the coaching and the skilfulness of kids playing the game  has greatly improved .

Edited November 25, 2023 by SoccMan

[h coach]

1 hour ago, SoccMan said:

Totally agree with this, it’s definitely changing kids I find are more skillful today than even 10 years ago . The coaching is better and improving . Of course at the house league level you still get parents with no real experience in the game coaching , however, once you go to the higher levels of rep soccer you will find a lot more knowledgeable coaches . It’s going to unfortunately take more time but slowly and surely we will get there.  I know it might not seem that way presently but youth soccer today has improved and the quality and knowledge of the coaching and even the young kids playing has improved. There still needs to be a lot more changes at the grass roots youth soccer level don’t get me wrong but the coaching and the skilfulness of kids playing the game  has greatly improved .

I would also add that changes by the CSA to coaching courses/long term player dev... (such as no longer having 10 year olds playing 11v11 on a full sized field) also have had a big impact. There are a lot of things to fix, improve, particularly focusing more on player development rather than winning the league because you have the biggest strongest kids, but we are light years ahead of where we were 35 years ago or 50 years ago. When I grew up in a town of 10,000 people in the 70s they only then started a minor soccer program. Since then Nana Attakora came from that program.

[TOcanadafan]

On 11/24/2023 at 3:04 PM, red card said:

 

 

I thought it was strange that even though Sandor makes reference to lack of facilities and quality coaching in Canada that he compares our ‘golden generation’ to Iceland - lucky to have 3 or 4 great players born within a few years of one another, and not due to a ‘systemic awakening’.  Iceland had a systemic awakening and invested heavily in coaching and facilities and you can see that although they haven’t done as well in the past few years at the senior level, they are very competitive at the U21 level and are continuing to produce quality prospects, way more than a nation of under 400,000 should.  Although I see some plans for facility improvements in the works, I don’t sense there is much investment/effort to significantly improve our coaching development.

[red card]

According to Tom Byer, an American who has helped to shape Japanese youth football development, you become a soccer nation by starting it at home. In this world, at best, Canada is a generation away from being a soccer nation.

He did a 2 part interview with Tactical Manager. His elevator pitch is: If you can get a child technically strong before they play organized football, that’s the magic bullet. It means they’ll still develop even when paired with volunteer coaches. 

Skill acquisition happens much earlier than the football world thinks. It happens in a very organic way in areas where there is football culture. Brazilian kids are drunken with skills because they’re constantly strengthening their neural pathways between their brain and feet. They have fallen in love with the ball first, not the game. 

Highly wired players transfer info 100x faster. That’s why they don’t think of what to do with the ball. Kids need to deposit technical skills in their 3-5 yr old brains so that at older ages, they can use it unconsciously. 

Football needs early engagement. Need to appreciate it is a difficult sport to be good at. Layering more difficult movements comes with having basic building blocks early. So, instead of just trying to be able to move the ball between your feet at 6, you can then try combo plays, you can experiment, you can try step overs, double moves. 

Need to have football starts at home mindset. Parents play a vital role to facilitate it. Getting this headstart turbo charges development. This is how you close the gap between the elite and the least developed players.

It ensures by the time they get to a coach, they have laid down the basic building blocks.  If they haven’t, it is kinda too late. Kids will still develop but it will be a hit or miss rather than by design. This means technical skills should be honed by 13 when entering an academy. The hard work has been done. 

Byer did a Australian film series looking at 11 players including Neymar, Messi, Suarez, Pogba & Iniesta. All started playing between 2-5. All credited their father -  sometimes mother for the love of the game. Otherwise, most players can’t explain why they’re good. 

So, the question to ask is when did your parents buy your first ball? Landon Donovan's parents didn’t buy him a ball because his brother was already playing & balls were everywhere in the house. Dempsey learned all his flicks/tricks in his house. Pulisic got his first ball at 2-3 yrs old. 

American pay-to play-model breeds fanatical parents who don’t know what development looks like and have kids terrible at the sport. Change won’t happen trying to educate parents of 13 yr olds. Giant leap forward starts with younger parents. Pay-to-play model also breeds clubs focused on winning trophies rather than development in order to attract the money.

Byer said he has been talking to top people in Canada given the need to grow the game and improve the game given 2026.

 

 

[Rivaldo]

On 11/24/2023 at 4:22 PM, CanadaFan123 said:

No doubt about that. One team will be playing to win the tournament. Surely if our MNT makes even a quarter final they’ll get that number. 

What number?

[Aird25]

I don't really follow other nations so I don't have direct comparisons but I'd say we're a long, long ways from being a soccer nation. Even the most committed fans are divided on how best to start and who to support, and that funnels down through every level. There's absolutely no cohesion in this country when it comes to soccer. Reading this forum must be comical for anyone that isn't invested.