How Far Are We From A Soccer Nation?

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I am confused by what you mean here. Last year they ran an exhibition series and Blizzards and SWU are now on board for the first season. Am I missing something?

I mean, the reality is that we cannot expect them to have sufficient salaries. I was just pointing out we need them to eventually, but that is a decade out at least. We need League 1 to survive until then.

I imagine part of the solution is going to have to be trickle down from CPL or CSB (CSA?) because that is where the crowds and dollars are. 

I believe AMSL plays on a regionalized schedule to save on travel costs, so we may see that in League 1 Alberta too.

I guess theres a miscommunication on technicalities... My bad. You're talking about how its now officially league 1 this year (as opposed to the series). I was looking at it from a perspective of development. Games being played means its up and running even if it was an exhibition series.  

[Obinna]

16 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I guess theres a miscommunication on technicalities... My bad. You're talking about how its now officially league 1 this year (as opposed to the series). I was looking at it from a perspective of development. Games being played means its up and running even if it was an exhibition series.  

Ah I think I see what you mean now. Cheers!

[Ottawafan]

17 hours ago, Bigandy said:

100%. Im with you, but sharing my knowledge of technicalities in the foothills example. 

 

Correct but with u21 constraints (loosely- callum montgomery played). Foothills could also be viewed as a weird version of their second team with some older guys on it (pipegrass and moe el gandour). Loturi played cavalry u21 in amsl before going onto cavalry as have others. 

 

That seems counter intuitive. With limited resources, its best to create 1 u21 team instead of u16 and u18. Who would the u16 and u18s play. At least with a u21 team you can play league 1 where you have a bunch of youngsters around 17. 

Its just so diffivult to say we need a u16and u18 team but thats not even a priority. the priority is 5-13 age groups. So now we need 5ish teams minimum per cpl club... thats so tough.  Although I do agree that we need kids getting ball skills younger, I dont agree the practical solutions is to create cpl academies to do so.  

The priority 100% is the younger level ( 5-13 ), and at this point and probably forever, having CPL teams run those age levels isn't feasible.  Local clubs, especially higher level ones, have the resources and footprint to do this.  But it can be run as a parallel system, working together.  How that gets worked out... will take some work.  But everyone should be pulling in the same direction.

Getting kids into a system at U16 ( 14/15 year olds ) enables them to start to build on the base they have developed under the eyes of a professional club.  The focus when they turn 13 should be more tactical then technical.  Putting them at U21 isn't really moving the needle unless you are looking for that late, late boomer.

[InglewoodJack]

Interesting thing re: soccer culture in Canada that I recently thought about. I was talking to my friend’s boyfriend who is involved in youth soccer in the area- this is a guy who grew up in France, and he was telling me that his big initiative is trying to lobby municipalities to create soccer courts- not fields- because from his perspective, that’s one of the main things Canada doesn’t have that Europe and pretty much the rest of the world have over us. Soccer fields are great, but if you’re a kid after school with like 4 buddies and a ball, you’re not going to go and take up a whole field and play a game, but if you’re going to a small court, you can mess around, practice your skills, get a game going with just a few guys, and it naturally helps talented players develop their skills in tight areas that aren’t as easy to practice on a full field when you’re training with a team. Plus, the way Canada is going, we’re going to be drawing more and more players from intercity neighbourhoods vs the traditional middle class suburban soccer families, and you can’t exactly just plop down a soccer field in the middle of a city, but you can put up a cage, some nets, and either artificial grass or concrete very easily. 
 

Not sure what the outcome would be, but based on how many world class players credit their early development to playing on small courts against older local kids, I think this would be a small but effective development that would also serve to help solve the issue of players needing to pay their way through the system, because those same players now have an easier option to start playing on their own/with friends. 

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Interesting thing re: soccer culture in Canada that I recently thought about. I was talking to my friend’s boyfriend who is involved in youth soccer in the area- this is a guy who grew up in France, and he was telling me that his big initiative is trying to lobby municipalities to create soccer courts- not fields- because from his perspective, that’s one of the main things Canada doesn’t have that Europe and pretty much the rest of the world have over us. Soccer fields are great, but if you’re a kid after school with like 4 buddies and a ball, you’re not going to go and take up a whole field and play a game, but if you’re going to a small court, you can mess around, practice your skills, get a game going with just a few guys, and it naturally helps talented players develop their skills in tight areas that aren’t as easy to practice on a full field when you’re training with a team. Plus, the way Canada is going, we’re going to be drawing more and more players from intercity neighbourhoods vs the traditional middle class suburban soccer families, and you can’t exactly just plop down a soccer field in the middle of a city, but you can put up a cage, some nets, and either artificial grass or concrete very easily. 
 

Not sure what the outcome would be, but based on how many world class players credit their early development to playing on small courts against older local kids, I think this would be a small but effective development that would also serve to help solve the issue of players needing to pay their way through the system, because those same players now have an easier option to start playing on their own/with friends. 

I've always wondered why we don't push this. I guess it's because people like this haven't lobbied municipalities. Calgary for example has very recently been installing new basketball courts around the downtown core. Those could have easily doubled as soccer courts had the vision been there. It's almost as if decision makers just default to basketball because that's what we've always done, not necessarily because the basketball community is pushing for it. Anyway, cool to hear your friends BF is pushing that. Good luck to him. God speed.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

The priority 100% is the younger level ( 5-13 ), and at this point and probably forever, having CPL teams run those age levels isn't feasible. 

I'm not sure about the other clubs, but Pacific's youth teams start at U7 for boys and girls

[InglewoodJack]

43 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I've always wondered why we don't push this. I guess it's because people like this haven't lobbied municipalities. Calgary for example has very recently been installing new basketball courts around the downtown core. Those could have easily doubled as soccer courts had the vision been there. It's almost as if decision makers just default to basketball because that's what we've always done, not necessarily because the basketball community is pushing for it. Anyway, cool to hear your friends BF is pushing that. Good luck to him. God speed.

Yeah, I think in general it’s becoming increasingly difficult for municipalities to invest in public services and shared public spaces, but any spot for a soccer court is a spot that could be used for a basketball or even bocci court. I was actually surprised when I realized I’ve never seen any soccer courts in Canada before since whenever I’m in Europe, they’re practically in every neighbourhood and you barely even notice them. Seems like it would be easy to implement though- pour concrete, put up two nets and put a fence around it. Could even be a cool initiative for MLS teams to invest in some as a form of youth outreach. I even know quite a few NBA players from Europe and Africa donate money for basketball courts- would be cool if Davies and Bayern build a court in Edmonton or David builds one where he grew up on Ottawa. 

[Ottawafan]

38 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I'm not sure about the other clubs, but Pacific's youth teams start at U7 for boys and girls

How big a population are they drawing from?  And what kind of a relationship do they have with the local clubs?

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

I was talking to my friend’s boyfriend who is involved in youth soccer in the area- this is a guy who grew up in France, and he was telling me that his big initiative is trying to lobby municipalities to create soccer courts

Pacific built a 5-a-side field in addition to building the largest indoor field house in British Columbia

[Aird25]

21 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

How big a population are they drawing from?  And what kind of a relationship do they have with the local clubs?

I have no clue how to answer how big a population they're drawing from. Victoria is quite small (<500k), but I don't think there are regional rights like MLS. They purchased and assumed control of a local club, and I know they regularly host camps that include kids from other local clubs. I haven't heard of the infighting and politics that you get in other cities, but I'm sure there is some of it

[Ottawafan]

8 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I have no clue how to answer how big a population they're drawing from. Victoria is quite small (<500k), but I don't think there are regional rights like MLS. They purchased and assumed control of a local club, and I know they regularly host camps that include kids from other local clubs. I haven't heard of the infighting and politics that you get in other cities, but I'm sure there is some of it

Looks like they are on par with London for population size.  If they can run programs for youth teams good on them!

[Free kick]

An american youth coach visits Argentina and compares notes with what he sees in the US.   

 

 

Edited January 19 by Free kick

[red card]

Another country comparison is Japan which has more similiarities with the Argentina situation noted in video above than Canada.

Last year, 40% of the kids getting contracts in the J League came from high schools and 60% were coming from J League academies. Japanese high schools specialise in football from when the kids join. There are iconic high schools that are more famous and have more status than J1 clubs.

Does any Canadian 6 year old expereince this at their youth club? When a six-year-old Japanese boy or girl joins the football club, they train at a minimum of 4 times a week, sometimes two hours to three hours per session. The season lasts basically 45 weeks a year. 

No off-season and no class barrier to playing, since it costs almost nothing to play football in Japan. But there can be other costs: overtraining, burnout, injuries, some mental health issues. 

Not having a football culture even amongst families with kids playing the sport hampers Canada. The countries that produce the best players don’t necessarily have the best coaching, best facilities or the best curriculum. They’ve got cultures of development that are very conducive to developing players such as Japan. They win the battle at the entry-level.

Tom Byers who played a key role in transforming the culture of player development in Japan: I always say that if you want to really change a country, develop a little army of little five- and six-year-old boys and girls that are skilled in ball mastery and then just let them play. When you can take the best kids in any country and close the gap between the best 10-, 11- and 12-year-olds, that’s when your elite player pool explodes. That’s what we’re seeing with Japan.

Something CSB or a major sponsor should consider in 5-10 years: A billionaire owner of e-commerce company DMM took a 20% stake in Sint Truiden in 2017 to act as a bridge between Japan and the upper echelons of football. There are now 16 Japanese players playing in Belgium's D1 with Truiden having 7.  Germany has 9 while Scotland, Portugal & Netherlands have 7 each.

J League is considered the best value market in the world. The J League is slower-paced and not as physical because there are few long balls played in games. But it is probably one of the best technical leagues. Very few European clubs have scouts in Japan but they use data/video to screen for those that fit their key performance indicators (KPIs). Unlike in the UK, transfer negoitations are straightforward and honest.

Why hasn't South Korea been as well-mined? K League salaries are much higher and military conscription needs to be fulfilled by 26.

https://theathletic.com/5175044/2024/01/19/japan-korea-scouting/

 

Edited January 21 by red card

[red card]

How did Uruguay become not just a futbol nation but a giant in the sport.

Canada won the Olympic football gold in 1904. Nothing happened.

Uruguay won the Olympic football gold in 1924. And it changed Uruguay forever. Football had pulled this tiny country out of the shadows of universal anonymity.

Another Olympic gold in 1928 further engrained the sport. Two years later, a triumph at the first World Cup played in Montevideo wove football into the fabric of the country forever.

Today, football is the game that an estimated 85% of sporty boys age 6-13 play. Poverty rates in Uruguay are the lowest in all of Latin America. So, la pasión mostly stems from history. 

They had it in their lives for as long as they can remember, ever since they received that first ball around age 2. Then, they join 60 baby fútbol leagues, divided into nine “zones,” under one umbrella. They play 7-v-7 against neighbouring clubs, often without having to hop in a car. 

The best from each age group then get selected to represent their league in inter-city competitions. These selecciones travel to different states, typically on long weekends, to face peers from other cities. Scouts from pro clubs attend the mini-tournaments. 

https://sports.yahoo.com/how-tiny-uruguay-became-a-soccer-giant-050027599.html

[kungfucious]

On 4/26/2022 at 11:09 PM, lamptern said:

Yes, we qualified for the World Cup again after 36 years.

Yes, we have a world elite star playing in one of the best club on this globe.

Yes, we sold out tickets for a WCQ games in a couple of days.

BUT......

When I can't watch both Champions League semifinals on neither of main  stream TV channels (they played NBA highlights and world tour pokers instead);

When our soccer association unable/unwilling to update it's website for an ongoing youth camp;

When we don't have a specific soccer stadium with grass pitch over 45,000 seats 4 years from hosting  World Cup.

......

I can't see we are a soccer nation yet. 

Bet all my words could  still stand in 2030? 

 

 

just wanna say i loved your decision to start this thread.  in the middle of this country's greatest soccer moment*, i STILL love that decision to start this thread.  2026 will be an anomaly, but then again, is it?  after all.... this tournament is being held in the states but we are grateful they letting us and our lil latin brother have a few scraps.

 

your original rant/ point still stands and i will never use 'soccer nation' until those things you said change

 

* just curious, what IS our greatest sporting moment?  this right now?  1972?  the bjs stealing their precious 'world series'?  jacques winning the WDT?  2010 on home ice?  bianca winning us open?  the raptors stealing their 'world championship'?  

Edited Friday at 03:20 AM by kungfucious

[SthMelbRed]

13 minutes ago, kungfucious said:

just wanna say i loved your decision to start this thread.  in the middle of this country's greatest soccer moment*, i STILL love that decision to start this thread.  2026 will be an anomaly, but then again, is it?  after all.... this tournament is being held in the states but we are grateful they letting us and our lil latin brother have a few scraps.

 

your original rant/ point still stands and i will never use 'soccer nation' until those things you said change

 

* just curious, what IS our greatest sporting moment?  this right now?  1972?  the bjs stealing their precious 'world series'?  jacques willing the WDT?  2010 on home ice?  bianca winning us open?  the raptors stealing their 'world championship'?  

Gotta be Donovan Bailey or the 4x100 win a few days later.

[gigi riva]

54 minutes ago, kungfucious said:

just wanna say i loved your decision to start this thread.  in the middle of this country's greatest soccer moment*, i STILL love that decision to start this thread.  2026 will be an anomaly, but then again, is it?  after all.... this tournament is being held in the states but we are grateful they letting us and our lil latin brother have a few scraps.

 

your original rant/ point still stands and i will never use 'soccer nation' until those things you said change

 

* just curious, what IS our greatest sporting moment?  this right now?  1972?  the bjs stealing their precious 'world series'?  jacques willing the WDT?  2010 on home ice?  bianca winning us open?  the raptors stealing their 'world championship'?  

For me its Donavan Bailey winning the gold in the 100m in 1996

[kacbru]

Ben Johnson in 1988.  It was just unfortunate that it followed only a few days later with our worst sporting moment.

[TGAA_Star]

For me, we definitely have improved as a footballing nation. I wouldn't say we are a world power but in our region of CONCACAF, at this point, I can say that Canada is a power but only in CONCACAF. 

 

My opinion is that with us hosting the 2026 FIFA World Cup with Mexico 🇲🇽 and the USA 🇺🇸 it helps to boost the culture of football ⚽️ especially in this country. It will inspire a generation of Canadian boys and young men to want to play the game and especially at a high level at all age group levels.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

On 1/20/2024 at 8:34 PM, red card said:

Another country comparison is Japan which has more similiarities with the Argentina situation noted in video above than Canada.

Last year, 40% of the kids getting contracts in the J League came from high schools and 60% were coming from J League academies. Japanese high schools specialise in football from when the kids join. There are iconic high schools that are more famous and have more status than J1 clubs...

I lived and worked in Japan for seven years and this seemed a bit odd to me because my impression was always that baseball is the sport that gets pushed as the prestige high school event with soccer treated as a bit of an afterthought. The J League was launched only a few years before MLS and although it's popular it doesn't really compare with the Yomiuri Giants and Hanshin Tigers in baseball for being the Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens equivalent culturally. Think the main reason high schools would be very important for player development is that Japanese cities are so densely built up that they are one of the few places you will be able to find a full-sized soccer field.

[InglewoodJack]

Japan is a really interesting case. Their famous 1000 team high school tournament reads like the Memorial Cup on steroids. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

12 hours ago, kungfucious said:

just wanna say i loved your decision to start this thread.  in the middle of this country's greatest soccer moment*, i STILL love that decision to start this thread.  2026 will be an anomaly, but then again, is it?  after all.... this tournament is being held in the states but we are grateful they letting us and our lil latin brother have a few scraps.

 

your original rant/ point still stands and i will never use 'soccer nation' until those things you said change

 

* just curious, what IS our greatest sporting moment?  this right now?  1972?  the bjs stealing their precious 'world series'?  jacques winning the WDT?  2010 on home ice?  bianca winning us open?  the raptors stealing their 'world championship'?  

I think you will find we are somewhat atypical on this board (in more ways that one) and 1972 will probably remain the icon until we lose all memory of the Cold War (or get new ones to replace them).  It transceded sport and Canada was doing its part in the most important struggle in the world.  (Easy to not realise how real it must have felt, just 10 years after the Missle Crisis, the American were not completely out of Vietnam.)

I can just remember we were still "fighting" the "Evil Empire" in 1987 and the Gretzky/Lemieux goal.  I can only imagine how it felt 15 years before.

[kungfucious]

16 hours ago, kacbru said:

Ben Johnson in 1988.  It was just unfortunate that it followed only a few days later with our worst sporting moment.

what happened after?  

[kacbru]

4 minutes ago, kungfucious said:

what happened after?  

Tested positive for steroids. 

[kungfucious]

11 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Tested positive for steroids. 

oh....   sorry.    difficult to understand.

11 minutes ago, kacbru said:

It was just unfortunate that it followed only a few days later with our worst sporting moment.

this is what u mean to say, i think?

it was just unfortunate what followed only a few days later, was also our worst sporting moment.

Edited Friday at 08:21 PM by kungfucious