Luc de Fougerolles

[Bigandy]

I think theres a big difference between the terms "accomplished" and "talent". LDF has arguably played at the highest level out of any of our CB's with vitorias 1 appearance in a meaningless game for benfica as the only other comparison. 

I 100% agree that the list of accomplishments of millers outweighs LDF. 

However, the raw ability of LDF is higher already IMO. He can read the game better, is able to execute technique at a higher speed of play etc. He doesn't have the mans body or experience or a variety of other things that can result in a more effective CB. Thats why I wouldnt pencil him in as a starter as raw talent isnt the only variable in building the best player. 

[CanadaFan123]

14 hours ago, kacbru said:

Ah Wyn and that U20 team that lost on a golden goal to Spain in the quarters.  I thought we were on the cusp of becoming a football nation...

Didn’t know Wyn was on that team. That was 2003 so it was Hutchinson, Hume, Simpson etc. to me.

Edited November 9, 2023 by CanadaFan123

[Obinna]

56 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think theres a big difference between the terms "accomplished" and "talent". LDF has arguably played at the highest level out of any of our CB's with vitorias 1 appearance in a meaningless game for benfica as the only other comparison. 

I 100% agree that the list of accomplishments of millers outweighs LDF. 

However, the raw ability of LDF is higher already IMO. He can read the game better, is able to execute technique at a higher speed of play etc. He doesn't have the mans body or experience or a variety of other things that can result in a more effective CB. Thats why I wouldnt pencil him in as a starter as raw talent isnt the only variable in building the best player. 

Aside from the World Cup obviously, which in this context of the NT is probably worth mentioning.

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I think theres a big difference between the terms "accomplished" and "talent". LDF has arguably played at the highest level out of any of our CB's with vitorias 1 appearance in a meaningless game for benfica as the only other comparison. 

I 100% agree that the list of accomplishments of millers outweighs LDF. 

However, the raw ability of LDF is higher already IMO. He can read the game better, is able to execute technique at a higher speed of play etc. He doesn't have the mans body or experience or a variety of other things that can result in a more effective CB. Thats why I wouldnt pencil him in as a starter as raw talent isnt the only variable in building the best player. 

I think we're all in agreement, just saying it in different ways. He's got the talent to become our best CB and it would be disappointing if he doesn't reach that level- after committing to us, of course- but if we have an important game to play, we've got better starters to play ahead of him. That should hopefully change between now and 2026.

[dyslexic nam]

13 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think we're all in agreement, just saying it in different ways. He's got the talent to become our best CB and it would be disappointing if he doesn't reach that level- after committing to us, of course- but if we have an important game to play, we've got better starters to play ahead of him. That should hopefully change between now and 2026.

I agree that we need to temper the praise if his “accomplishments “ but I am not sure we can draw this conclusion.   The only one who can ultimately make that call will be the coaching staff who will get to see LDF in direct comparison to a guy like Miller or Cornelius (and who saw it in the Japan build up).   

[Bigandy]

29 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think we're all in agreement, just saying it in different ways. He's got the talent to become our best CB and it would be disappointing if he doesn't reach that level- after committing to us, of course- but if we have an important game to play, we've got better starters to play ahead of him. That should hopefully change between now and 2026.

Id say we are 90% in agreement with the only variation is some of us think his ability is higher than our current crop and some think its too early to say that.  Like you say, its a bit of semantics at this point, but I am high on the LDF train and think the bar is incredibly low at CB. 

[InglewoodJack]

34 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I agree that we need to temper the praise if his “accomplishments “ but I am not sure we can draw this conclusion.   The only one who can ultimately make that call will be the coaching staff who will get to see LDF in direct comparison to a guy like Miller or Cornelius (and who saw it in the Japan build up).   

Right, but realistically, we're playing in a do or die game, are we starting LDF right now, or are we going with guys like Miller, Cornelius, Johnston, Votira, 2 or 3 of them? I think he should be given the same opportunities Kone was being given a year and a half ago. Give him the opportunity and maybe he shoots up the depth chart, but if we're playing a knockout game tonight for example, I'm not starting LDF and I'm probably not using one of my 5 subs on him unless we're up significantly.

20 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Id say we are 90% in agreement with the only variation is some of us think his ability is higher than our current crop and some think its too early to say that.  Like you say, its a bit of semantics at this point, but I am high on the LDF train and think the bar is incredibly low at CB. 

For sure- agreed on both points here. I think a lot of fans who have followed this team for a long time or who follow their own premier league teams closely know how many players who get a cup of coffee in that league end up becoming irrelevant extremely quickly, so maybe LDF ascends, maybe he's playing in the combined counties league of Shropshire by 2025. I'm inclined to buy into his potential if not because if we can't root for the best outcomes, given our weak prospect pool, what can we really do, but I also think the bar for him to clear our other CBs is low. He could have a Liam Millar-esque trajectory and be playing in Switzerland or Sweden or a similar league by 2026 and that's still CANMNT quality.

[dyslexic nam]

24 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Right, but realistically, we're playing in a do or die game, are we starting LDF right now, or are we going with guys like Miller, Cornelius, Johnston, Votira, 2 or 3 of them? I think he should be given the same opportunities Kone was being given a year and a half ago. Give him the opportunity and maybe he shoots up the depth chart, but if we're playing a knockout game tonight for example, I'm not starting LDF and I'm probably not using one of my 5 subs on him unless we're up significantly.

I guess I see it a bit differently. If he steps in the camp and is the top defender for us - or even top 2 or 3 - I see no reason to arbitrarily keep him out of the lineup. This isn’t a union shop where seniority rules, we should be going with the guy who can do the best job for us. If that is Miller or Cornelius then so be it, but if it is LDF, then that needs to be recognized too.  

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I guess I see it a bit differently. If he steps in the camp and is the top defender for us - or even top 2 or 3 - I see no reason to arbitrarily keep him out of the lineup. This isn’t a union shop where seniority rules, we should be going with the guy who can do the best job for us. If that is Miller or Cornelius then so be it, but if it is LDF, then that needs to be recognized too.  

i agree with both of you. In a do or die in concacaf, expereince matters. Having said that, LDF should play if hes the best option. The problem is that hes fighting aj for a spot. Aj could then fight buchanan and laryea for RWB. either way, LDF is likely dropping one of our top players as opposed to one of our weaker players. 

[Dominic94]

Does anyone know the ceiling for him ? Like can he be a top class CB in the EPL ?

[Obinna]

I say may the best player win the minutes.

The best player may be the experienced player in Vitoria, or the biggest (and slowest) player in Vitoria, or it may be the quicker but less experienced LDF.

In the Biello interview (which I half listened to) he was talking about how a transition needs to happen gradually and young players need to go through a learning period. This presumably applies to LDF and may explain why he didn't see the field in Japan. It was his first call up.

How much of an adjustment period LDF will need in the eyes of Biello?

I still think he sees the field in Toronto if all goes well. And I think we live and die with Vitoria in Kingston, be it a back four or back 3.

I also wonder if Biello panicks and throws on LDF if it goes very badly with Vitoria getting burned for pace..... 

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Does anyone know the ceiling for him ? Like can he be a top class CB in the EPL ?

Anyone's guess and probably too early to say, but my guess is that his ceiling is a garden variety CB or FB in the EPL. I don't think he's going to end up at Man City, but he looks like he could have a career-long run at the likes of Fulham or equivalent. Again though, way too early to say that with confidence.

[costarg]

27 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I also wonder if Biello panicks and throws on LDF if it goes very badly with Vitoria getting burned for pace..... 

That's the thing, we know Vitoria will get burned for pace vs this opponent, it's not a question.  Ignoring that and playing him anyway is bat shit crazy.

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

That's the thing, we know Vitoria will get burned for pace vs this opponent, it's not a question.  Ignoring that and playing him anyway is bat shit crazy.

We should prepare for bat shit crazy then because that's almost certainly what's going to happen 

At this point all we can do is hope Vitoria (and the rest of the team) compensates positionally to minimize the issue.

I am trying to take comfort in the fact that Vitoria has played against Jamaica before and knows what to expect. He has also played much better teams than Jamaica. 

Then again though, he got pulled out and exposed against Guadeloupe in Gold Cup which led to the free kick and dropped points. I would like to think something like that won't happen with Johnston and Cornelius to either side of him.

Miller makes me nervous though and although we probably start Miller I feel that Cornelius can recover better. Hopefully Biello plays him, he should be in better rhythm anyway.

[Bigandy]

11 minutes ago, costarg said:

That's the thing, we know Vitoria will get burned for pace vs this opponent, it's not a question.  Ignoring that and playing him anyway is bat shit crazy.

We also know LDF in the middle would be extremely high risk with his inexperience and his lack of physicality AND the biggest, his lack of height (add in miller and AJ and we are asking for trouble aerially). 

So LDF isnt an option at CCB. 

The question is: is does vitorias aerially ability, leadership/experience, and lack of pace provide more to the team than cornelius improved pace, inexperience/lack of leadership. 

We have seen the best and worst of vitoria quite frequently. Our team plays better with him in the line-up in every instance except when we get caught on counters (compared to kennedy, waterman, zmg, and cornelius at CCB). Do we trust the back 3 to read the game well enough to manage the counter.... tough call. 

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

We also know LDF in the middle would be extremely high risk with his inexperience and his lack of physicality AND the biggest, his lack of height (add in miller and AJ and we are asking for trouble aerially). 

So LDF isnt an option at CCB. 

The question is: is does vitorias aerially ability, leadership/experience, and lack of pace provide more to the team than cornelius improved pace, inexperience/lack of leadership. 

We have seen the best and worst of vitoria quite frequently. Our team plays better with him in the line-up in every instance except when we get caught on counters (compared to kennedy, waterman, zmg, and cornelius at CCB). Do we trust the back 3 to read the game well enough to manage the counter.... tough call. 

I have been thinking the same. This is not an easy choice for Biello. Does he run it back with Miller-Cornelius-Johnston? Maybe. He would lose the presence and ability in the air, but with Vitoria you run the risk of him getting isolated. 

I think we need to consider what kind of game this is likely to be. If it is a scrappy game with neither team able to connect passes I think Vitoria is the way to go. Maybe we get something off a corner or free kick. Considering the surface this is probably the way it goes down.

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I have been thinking the same. This is not an easy choice for Biello. Does he run it back with Miller-Cornelius-Johnston? Maybe. He would lose the presence and ability in the air, but with Vitoria you run the risk of him getting isolated. 

I think we need to consider what kind of game this is likely to be. If it is a scrappy game with neither team able to connect passes I think Vitoria is the way to go. Maybe we get something off a corner or free kick. Considering the surface this is probably the way it goes down.

I agree.  In fact, we could sit deeper so theres less space behind vitoria and more space for our attackers to counter attack. 

[dyslexic nam]

Especially in Kingston, I think we play fairly defensively.  Hell, I would be surprised to see us essentially play a back 5 at certain points in the game with Davies and Buchanan switching between attacking and defending roles 

[kacbru]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:56 AM, costarg said:

He's already accomplished more than any other CB in our pool.

17 hours ago, costarg said:

It's fine if you think an MLS all-star comes close to EPL and puts them in the same league, you're entitled to that opinion, however you're ignoring lots of evidence to the contrary.

It's fine if you think a solitary cup appearance is more of an accomplishment than the entire professional careers of other CBs in our pool, you're entitled to that opinion, however you're ignoring lots of evidence to the contrary.

I think it is incredibly dismissive.

[SthMelbRed]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:25 AM, InglewoodJack said:

Thing to keep in mind with LDF is that when we say we want a premier league CB, it's not a guy who can look good against a Championship team in November (very impressive nonetheless). It's because we think he can shut down Manchester City, Arsenal, Tottenham, so on, and go toe to toe with the absolute world's best, and realistically, you want him to be what, like within the top 30 best CBs in the world? That's what a good EPL CB would be. No discredit to him for not showing this yet, he will get that opportunity, but I think we have several CBs who can look good in a one game stint in a cup match as part of a good premier league team roster.

I will be disappointed if he isn't our best CB in 2026, unless someone even better somehow comes along, but as it stands, he has played one single game of professional soccer in his entire life, and like Corbeanu, Jebbison, Millar, we don't know if he's going straight to the main club, or if he still has to do the whole loan circuit for the next few years. I think a big part of why he was named MOTM was because it was his debut at 18 and he didn't look terrible.

I'll be very disappointed if we don't see him against Jamaica, however, I do think at the very present time, I take Miller, Cornelius, maybe Vitoria for the height over him if we want to win a game. That will hopefully change over the next 6-12 months.

Not necessarily looking to nitpick here, but there are between 50 and 100 CBs getting regular minutes in the Premier League in any given season. Are you suggesting that all of them should be considered in the top 30 CBs in the world? Are we just discounting all of the great CBs that are also playing for super clubs in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc?

Frankly, to be far and away the best Canadian CB of all time, he'd only have to get into the top two or three hundred at that position in the world. Essentially, he'd just have to be an everyday starter for mid- to lower-table Premier League team. Like Tim Ream, who's pretty ordinary with respect to your average PL defender.

[sebdeserio]

1 hour ago, SthMelbRed said:

Not necessarily looking to nitpick here, but there are between 50 and 100 CBs getting regular minutes in the Premier League in any given season. Are you suggesting that all of them should be considered in the top 30 CBs in the world? Are we just discounting all of the great CBs that are also playing for super clubs in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc?

Frankly, to be far and away the best Canadian CB of all time, he'd only have to get into the top two or three hundred at that position in the world. Essentially, he'd just have to be an everyday starter for mid- to lower-table Premier League team. Like Tim Ream, who's pretty ordinary with respect to your average PL defender.

Would Tim Ream be far and away the best Canadian centre back of all time? Not a sexy name but he's had 4 seasons of playing an important role for a prem team.

[SthMelbRed]

16 minutes ago, sebdeserio said:

Would Tim Ream be far and away the best Canadian centre back of all time? Not a sexy name but he's had 4 seasons of playing an important role for a prem team.

He was okay last season, and has started this season similarly. However, in Fulham's previous, one-year stint in the Premier League, he was probably one of the worst CBs the division had seen in a long, long time. However, he's stuck at a level unseen by any Canadian CB for half a decade, so he'd be definitely in the conversation.

 

[Kent]

Now you guys have me trying to figure out who is the best CB in CMNT's history. I instinctively think of DeVos and Randy Samuel. When I think of McKenna I immediately think of that day in Honduras and that sours that pick. What about from our 2022 batch, Vitoria? Am I missing any obvious contenders? McKenna probably played at the highest levels for club. Not sure if he did better than Tim Ream or not, I'm not an expert on either.

[Stoppage Time]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Now you guys have me trying to figure out who is the best CB in CMNT's history. I instinctively think of DeVos and Randy Samuel. When I think of McKenna I immediately think of that day in Honduras and that sours that pick. What about from our 2022 batch, Vitoria? Am I missing any obvious contenders? McKenna probably played at the highest levels for club. Not sure if he did better than Tim Ream or not, I'm not an expert on either.

Ian Bridge

[Obinna]

I see that LDF wasn't in the Fulham matchday squad over the weekend. Back with the U21s...or did he head to Jamaica a few days early?