Luc de Fougerolles

[frmr]

It's a tiny sample size but MOTM at barely 18 against a Championship side that looks to be headed to the Premier League next year is a big accomplishment. I'm certainly not ready to call him our best CB, but do we have any other CB's who could put in a MOTM performance against a top Championship side? Doubtful.

[InglewoodJack]

23 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

LDF is our best CB. Would he play the best given hes never expereinced concacaf? Probably not. But on pure ability, no other CB could compete at the level he can currently. 

I'm of the bold opinion that Kamal Miller could get it done on a balmy evening in old Ipswitch town. Cornelius too. Think Vitoria could probably give you an honest shift out there.

Agree about him being here on merit though. Just don't think he's our best CB yet, and likely won't be until just before 2026 if his development goes to plan.

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, Shway said:

Man these takes are just outright disrespectful lol. 
I get there's hype, but he hasn't played much. 1 cup match and he's the best in our pool. 

If he wasn't English would he be in the same position? Probably not.

Call me crazy, but I don't think I could say THAT confidently. 

Yeah I am with you. I am not ready to say he's the best CB we have. Kind of crazy to say for a guy without a cap and exactly 1 pro apperance (in a Cup match). Highest ceiling? No doubt about it. Deserves to be in the pool and called up? Yes and yes. 

I will wait to see how he does for Canada before saying he is a starter. I expect that he'll fit in seemlessly and next roster we can confidently pencil him in as the starting RCB.

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, frmr said:

It's a tiny sample size but MOTM at barely 18 against a Championship side that looks to be headed to the Premier League next year is a big accomplishment. I'm certainly not ready to call him our best CB, but do we have any other CB's who could put in a MOTM performance against a top Championship side? Doubtful.

Thing to keep in mind with LDF is that when we say we want a premier league CB, it's not a guy who can look good against a Championship team in November (very impressive nonetheless). It's because we think he can shut down Manchester City, Arsenal, Tottenham, so on, and go toe to toe with the absolute world's best, and realistically, you want him to be what, like within the top 30 best CBs in the world? That's what a good EPL CB would be. No discredit to him for not showing this yet, he will get that opportunity, but I think we have several CBs who can look good in a one game stint in a cup match as part of a good premier league team roster.

I will be disappointed if he isn't our best CB in 2026, unless someone even better somehow comes along, but as it stands, he has played one single game of professional soccer in his entire life, and like Corbeanu, Jebbison, Millar, we don't know if he's going straight to the main club, or if he still has to do the whole loan circuit for the next few years. I think a big part of why he was named MOTM was because it was his debut at 18 and he didn't look terrible.

I'll be very disappointed if we don't see him against Jamaica, however, I do think at the very present time, I take Miller, Cornelius, maybe Vitoria for the height over him if we want to win a game. That will hopefully change over the next 6-12 months.

[Bigandy]

39 minutes ago, Shway said:

Man these takes are just outright disrespectful lol. 
I get there's hype, but he hasn't played much. 1 cup match and he's the best in our pool. 

If he wasn't English would he be in the same position? Probably not.

Call me crazy, but I don't think I could say THAT confidently. 

The criteria of inexperience doesnt hold much weight for me. Theres plenty of youngsters who make their debut and are clearly ahead of guys with experience. 

Now experience is obviously valuable and i wouldnt say that LDF is clearly going to perform the best, especially in concacaf and against physically stronger guys and with MLS guys guiding him instead of prem players. 

However, in terms of ability and skill, I cant see any of our CB's anywhere near a prem team, much less a MOTM performance. none of our cbs have the composure on the ball or reading of the game that LDF shows. How many times have we been caught out from not reading a long ball properly. Miller seems closest to being composed on the ball but kennedy and vitoria have looked shaky against better opposition. Cornelius is a bit unknown but he did look shaky against japan. 

I guess its curious to say where the line is. Is he better than nimick - arguably the best cpl CB, nimick has more pro experience. zator? waterman? I'd confidently say yes to all of those. An aging vitoria with no speed.... yes probably. Kennedy and bombito - yes. The only ones who put up a case are miller, an aging and slow vitoria and cornelius who hasnt really proven anything at a higher level yet. 
 

[costarg]

54 minutes ago, Shway said:

Man these takes are just outright disrespectful lol. 
I get there's hype, but he hasn't played much. 1 cup match and he's the best in our pool. 

If he wasn't English would he be in the same position? Probably not.

Call me crazy, but I don't think I could say THAT confidently. 

He's already accomplished more than any other CB in our pool.  No one else would even get scouted by an English side, or even top 3 league in the world, nevermind make the bench and actually see the field in preseason and a cup match.

 

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

He clearly has the ability. It's just experience he's lacking at this point.

Exact opposite of Vitoria at the moment.

[Obinna]

20 minutes ago, costarg said:

He's already accomplished more than any other CB in our pool.  No one else would even get scouted by an English side, or even top 3 league in the world, nevermind make the bench and actually see the field in preseason and a cup match.

Part of this is Fulham developing a youth player. No CB in the pool would be scouted by an EPL team because they are in their mid 20s. What it does say is that LDF has a high ceiling. 

[Dominic94]

Reality is if he made their bench and started it is because they think he can help them and gain more from being with them for the time being. If he plays and is capped it’s a big win for us because right now we have only LS and JKL who might end up at that level eventually. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

He's already accomplished more than any other CB in our pool.

I may be seeing this out of context (I did read around a bit) and am a huge fan LDF and of new centre backs but this is a wildly inaccurate statement.   

Being scouted and even playing a number of games a very high level is not really accomplishing anything, it is a sign of big potential but really just that.  Helping your nation qualify for the World Cup for the first time in over 3 decades is a much bigger one, for instance. Being a consistent leader at club level for years or winning trophies in a lesser league is more of an accomplishment for me. 

I look at players like Reece Oxford, who had "accomplished" more than Fougerolles, earlier in his career (ie. he shut down Arsenal in a Premier League match).  Now, pre-injuries, he was a lower table Bundesliga CB, which we would take, of course. But him thinking he had accomplished more than he had, I think held him back.  Another would be someone like Ravel Morrison.  I can give you dozens of (former) kids who have accomplished for West Ham, what Fougerolles has for Fulham. ie. played a cup game for a Premier League club.  The vast majority of them aren't good enough for Canada. Full stop.

Fougerolles should be capped on talent and potential, like Corbeanu was.  But let's not do him and us a disservice by pretending he has really accomplished anything yet as a professional. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I can’t be the only who saw his inclusion with a potential to provisionally cap tie him and thought, is this guy fucking crazy picking Canada already? I’m not complaining it just seems very odd. 

[frmr]

7 minutes ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

I can’t be the only who saw his inclusion with a potential to provisionally cap tie him and thought, is this guy fucking crazy picking Canada already? I’m not complaining it just seems very odd. 

Sounds like for a change his dad is really pushing him towards Canada. It does feel weird but for once we seem to be on the good side of this sort of thing.

[Kent]

I didn't see his game (or I guess games, if you include preseason) but I just would like to point out that a massive part of being a good defender is consistency. Highlight reels or one off games aren't always a great indicator of what the player will be like. I'd like to see him against Jamaica, but one appearance for an EPL team doesn't mean he will end up an EPL player, or even a Championship player. Hopefully he will though!

[Bigandy]

Just now, Kent said:

I didn't see his game (or I guess games, if you include preseason) but I just would like to point out that a massive part of being a good defender is consistency. Highlight reels or one off games aren't always a great indicator of what the player will be like. I'd like to see him against Jamaica, but one appearance for an EPL team doesn't mean he will end up an EPL player, or even a Championship player. Hopefully he will though!

So true, which is why its been great that hes been very solid throughout all of his appearances. It also speaks to his consistency in training that he would be trusted. As a striker, if you blow hot and cold in training, a coach may still gamble on you. At CB, thats not happening unless youve earned trust.

[Kadenge]

6 minutes ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

I can’t be the only who saw his inclusion with a potential to provisionally cap tie him and thought, is this guy fucking crazy picking Canada already? I’m not complaining it just seems very odd. 

Think it's our collective PTSD after being blanked by a number of eligible Canadians but there are many players that opt to play for "lesser nations" even at an early age. 20 yr old  Mejbri at ManU,  born in France who he repped at youth switched to Tunisia in 2021. 20 yr old Chelsea's Omari Hutchinson on loan to Ipswich switched to Jamaica a yr after  he repped England U19 and U17. With Canada co-hosting 2026 and having a good chance to qualify for subsequent WCs with the expanded format we are a decent option for players that want a chance to play in a WC. Jebbo will be next.

[Obinna]

48 minutes ago, Kent said:

I didn't see his game (or I guess games, if you include preseason) but I just would like to point out that a massive part of being a good defender is consistency. Highlight reels or one off games aren't always a great indicator of what the player will be like. I'd like to see him against Jamaica, but one appearance for an EPL team doesn't mean he will end up an EPL player, or even a Championship player. Hopefully he will though!

I saw up to about the 30th minute of the first half against Ipswich. I saw a young, technically sound role player who focused on doing a good job and making the right play on his official debut. Nothing fancy, nothing spectacular, nothing too nervy, nothing too overconfident. Just did his job well and didn't let his team down.

I think the MOTM was probably a sentimental pick because he made his debut at 18 years old. Unless there was a bunch I was missing after I turned it off, of course. 

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I didn't see his game (or I guess games, if you include preseason) but I just would like to point out that a massive part of being a good defender is consistency. Highlight reels or one off games aren't always a great indicator of what the player will be like. I'd like to see him against Jamaica, but one appearance for an EPL team doesn't mean he will end up an EPL player, or even a Championship player. Hopefully he will though!

To be fair, he’s a lot more highly rated by his club than our other premier league owned players, past and present. Not to say he can’t drop to a lower level and there’s a larger than 0 chance he won’t ever be a premier league player, but by all accounts, he’s one of, if not the top prospect in Fulham’s system. There’s also the real chance that sometime between now and when he breaks into the squad as a full time starter that Fulham get relegated. They’ve been good these past few years, but they’ve spent 6 of the last 10 years in the championship. 

[kacbru]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

He's already accomplished more than any other CB in our pool.  No one else would even get scouted by an English side, or even top 3 league in the world, nevermind make the bench and actually see the field in preseason and a cup match.

Is playing in a single Cup game more of an accomplishment than playing in a Europa League qualifier (Henry)?  Presumably he was also scouted by an English side given it was with West Ham.

Being on the bench in a Europa League final (Vitoria)?

MLS all-star (Miller)?

Playing in Champions League group stage (Johnston is technically a CB for Canada)?

Etc. etc.

Sure, lots of potential, but he hasn't actually accomplished much.

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, kacbru said:

Is playing in a single Cup game more of an accomplishment than playing....

And of course those guys you mentioned played in tons of WCQ (beating the best in CONCACAF) and the world cup itself....which would trump one really good game in England, so they all have that going for them. 

Sometimes the hype train just takes off and there is no stopping it.    Now I hope that Wynn..oops I mean Gyaki..umm Aleman....oops Tabla...grrrrr Fig rolls will be a important national team player for the next 4 cycles......what could go wrong eh??  Wait, he isnt even capped yet????   

[kacbru]

Ah Wyn and that U20 team that lost on a golden goal to Spain in the quarters.  I thought we were on the cusp of becoming a football nation...

[Shway]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

... but one appearance for an EPL team doesn't mean he will end up an EPL player, or even a Championship player. Hopefully he will though!

Exactly. And if you follow a premier league team as far the academy products coming up. You'll know that some guys get a few appearances and then end up being career League 2 players. 

It's just way to early to say he's had a better career already just because of that appearance. 

Excited for him to be apart of the program and see him play. But I'll  err on the side of caution. 

[costarg]

3 hours ago, kacbru said:

Is playing in a single Cup game more of an accomplishment than playing in a Europa League qualifier (Henry)?  Presumably he was also scouted by an English side given it was with West Ham.

Being on the bench in a Europa League final (Vitoria)?

MLS all-star (Miller)?

Playing in Champions League group stage (Johnston is technically a CB for Canada)?

Etc. etc.

Sure, lots of potential, but he hasn't actually accomplished much.

You'll note, I specifically said, "in our pool".  Henry is no longer in our pool.  Henry has as much chance of making the roster as David Edgar at the moment.

Also, I specifically mentioned making an English side - best league in the world - at 18.

Vitoria was not on the bench for th3 Europa league final, he was not dressed, but he was on their roster.  Even then it was a Portuguese side not an English side.  He was 27 at the time, not 18.

Miller and Johnston have never been anywhere near suiting up for the top league in the world.  I hope that changes, but I guarantee you even if it does, Johnston will not be a CB. 

It's fine if you think an MLS all-star comes close to EPL and puts them in the same league, you're entitled to that opinion, however you're ignoring lots of evidence to the contrary.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

10 hours ago, costarg said:

It's fine if you think an MLS all-star comes close to EPL and puts them in the same league, you're entitled to that opinion, however you're ignoring lots of evidence to the contrary.

I hate seeming like I am running him down but let's be precise, he has not played in the best league in the world.  No one making a real analysis would put him at that level...yet.

So has a player who has been an MLS All-Star accomplished more than one who has not made a senior league appearance?  Of course, it seems crazy to even entertain the other side.  In fact, having been able to watch them about the same amount, Cornelius has accomplished more this year in intense big game situations than de Fougerolles has played in.

The latter has played in a League Cup game and made the bench.  There are many many other English players who have done that. Names I remember having decent League Cup games at about the same age: Zavon Hines, Freddie Sears, Josh Payne, Kyel Reid, Elliot Lee.  Who? Players who had okay careers but played some of their football in the 5th tier and below, after getting a chance in Cups as West Ham youth. 

12 hours ago, Shway said:

Exactly. And if you follow a premier league team as far the academy products coming up. You'll know that some guys get a few appearances and then end up being career League 2 players. 

So in my memory a League 2 average might be generous.  And those are ones I remember. And a number of them had Premier League appearances as well, something that I am hoping will soon come for de Fougerolles but hasn't yet. 

I hope (after we cup tie him😉) Luc becomes Rio Ferdinand or Glen Johnson or Declan Rice or even more modestly, James Tomkins or Reece Burke (who I saw play 120' in a League Cup game one of coldest night I spent in England). But he is not close to being rated as a Premiership player yet in anything but potential.   

Edited November 9, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, kacbru said:

Ah Wyn and that U20 team that lost on a golden goal to Spain in the quarters.  I thought we were on the cusp of becoming a football nation...

A kid named Iniesta scored, then a kid named Hume hit a long beauty to tie it.

We had Atiba and Josh Simpson on that team. Just noticed we lined up 3-4-3: I LIKE!

Edited November 9, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

I think we made 3-4 U20 World Cups in a row and it felt like we would continue to do so. Then we hosted 2007 and shit the bed

And then we haven't made 1 since.

[InglewoodJack]

Re: have any of our players accomplished what LDF did- I don’t think people realize how big of a feat it was for Kamal Miller to not only not get traded by GMessi, but he looked very good for a Miami team that could absolutely compete to some extent in Europe. Messi, Busquets, Alba, Taylor, Kamal, Calendar, Cremeschi- that’s a team that can go deep in Europe. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by InglewoodJack