flashback: 1986

[cornerkick]

if you haven't seen the Fifa 1986 movie, the entire thing is great... but this post is more about the brief mention of Canada in it, at 32:20, referred to as a bunch of semi-professionals:

the video won't embed here due to copyright, but you can click the link: 

 

we're gonna see some different scorelines come November

:

 

[Free kick]

The video has been blocked.  But, yes after the NASL folded (two years earlier) many of the players professional careers veered towards the the indoor game.  The indoor game, was not even futsal, but was played in hockey arenas with hockey boards.  That's who we sent to the WC.    In 1982,  a Concacaf side (i think it was El Salvador) lost 11-1 to Hungary so everyone got scared and went to Mexico with the objective of avoiding embarrassment.  And the team played that way.  I watched the games on TV and it was not pleasant to watch.     But the goal of the brass was that this was the start of several WC's so this was an opportunity to get our feet wet,  i bought it.  Problem is,  we never went back.  Hence the game never caught on in Canada, in part,  because, we scored no goals, got no points and we didn't play in a way that would attract fans, so all those fans that existed continued to cheer for their ancestral national sides or flocked in greater numbers to their ancestral  national sides.  plus there was no truly establish professional clubs to follow. 

Another problem with 1986,   is that it was basically a BC side. Most of the players came from the west coast.  Part of that made sense because the Whitecaps were a powerhouse in the NASL before it folded.   You can debate whether or not there was favoritism but, you can safely say that if the large population base of central Canada is not a factor in the team composition, your base will probably be poor because your talent pool is very limited and restricted. 

There were one or two decent players in 1986 but they moved to play indoor soccer and their indoor clubs tried to stop them from going to play at the WC.  Imagine that.   In the first game versus France our bunkering style did succeed against a French team who had some big stars.   France scored rather late in the game.    Another problem in 1986 was the group we were in.    Its not that it was a strong group but it had two eastern block countries when the Cold war was still around.  Not sexy. The eastern block was isolated from the west so very little was known about their players and their talent and abilities.   There was no casual fan who would have known anything about the teams from the Soviet Union and Hungary and that would have tuned in to watch.  Plus the games versus Hungary and Soviets were played on a week day in Canada and in early afternoon.  So very few watched because of the time it was played and because the two opponents had no known players or stars.

In 1986 we had no where close to the talent we have today.  In fact, many of the subsequent WC teams may have been better than that 86 team.  Its just that in 1986, Concacaf was poor (even the US was no good) and there was a lot of political instability in central America.  After 1986, and when the political instability in central america subsided,  the rest of Concacaf got really good and were accelerating their improvement at a rate much faster than Canada.     

For these reasons and others, Canada was never able to leverage from their 1986 experince.  thats a few of the reasons we never went back.   We never had another NASL until MLS came around and this is the biggest reasons why we went to the WC in 86 and in 2022. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Free kick

[cornerkick]

thanks for providing the additional details on the leadup to 86, as well as the tourney.  i'm surprised Hungary was an unknown back then, as I thought that was where a lot of players and tactics came (Puskas?), but maybe all that innovation was prior to political changes in country. 

[TGAA_Star]

They have highlights of Canada's 1986 run through FIFATV on YouTube but I don't know if it is still there or if they deleted it

[theaub]

Throwback to the TSN documentary on the '86 team

 

[EJsens1]

10 hours ago, Free kick said:

 

For these reasons and others, Canada was never able to leverage from their 1986 experince.  thats a few of the reasons we never went back.   We never had another NASL until MLS came around and this is the biggest reasons why we went to the WC in 86 and in 2022. 

Not to get this too off topic, but I was pretty young for this World Cup (6 years old) but remember a bit.  After, I remember the CSL, Vancouver continuing to dominate.  I went to a couple games for the Intrepid here in Ottawa.  I understand this is a loaded question, but what were the problems with that league? I assume it was bleeding money left, right and centre.  I recall watching some games on TSN.  Were the players mostly Canadian? Did they have any rules like the CFL where you had to have a certain number of Canadians in your line up? Any kind of insight would be appreciated 

[ray]

Unfortunately, our '86 World Cup happened just prior to the advent of the (original) Canadian Soccer League.  How would things have been different (public interest/investor/sponsorship-wise) for the CSL had we qualified for Italia 1990, the first World Cup fully broadcast on Canadian television?

I'm interested in seeing what qualifying for Qatar does for the CPL and maybe the women's pro game.  I want to say it will be a significant boost but this is still Canada where corporate sponsorship outside of NHL/CFL/MLB is still a challenge.

[Free kick]

22 minutes ago, EJsens1 said:

Not to get this too off topic, but I was pretty young for this World Cup (6 years old) but remember a bit.  After, I remember the CSL, Vancouver continuing to dominate.  I went to a couple games for the Intrepid here in Ottawa.  I understand this is a loaded question, but what were the problems with that league? I assume it was bleeding money left, right and centre.  I recall watching some games on TSN.  Were the players mostly Canadian? Did they have any rules like the CFL where you had to have a certain number of Canadians in your line up? Any kind of insight would be appreciated 

In my opinion, the quality of play of that league was too poor.   Hence not good enough to produce international quality talent.  I  watched regularly and attended some games in that league but the harsh reality is that the quality of play was poor and the foreign talent wasn't good enough to elevate the quality of play.  You need bigger budgets,  well funded and profitable clubs to pay for quality.  

best example,   today,  you see MLS players transferring to Bayern Munich, Brugge, Notts forest,  and some other first division sides in Italy or even Turkey.  I wish this could be better but back then , the best that our most promising CSL player (Jason Devos)could do was to land in Darlington,  you cant do much lower than that

Edited February 4, 2022 by Free kick

[TGAA_Star]

12 minutes ago, ray said:

Unfortunately, our '86 World Cup happened just prior to the advent of the (original) Canadian Soccer League.  How would things have been different (public interest/investor/sponsorship-wise) for the CSL had we qualified for Italia 1990, the first World Cup fully broadcast on Canadian television?

I'm interested in seeing what qualifying for Qatar does for the CPL and maybe the women's pro game.  I want to say it will be a significant boost but this is still Canada where corporate sponsorship outside of NHL/CFL/MLB is still a challenge.

I think qualifying for Qatar but also doing well in that tournament like actually winning games in the group stages and advancing to at least a Round of 16 game 

If we could do that and then host in 2026 on top of it, it will do wonders for the CPL and our men's program going forward.

[Metro]

Two great posts FK.  Thanks.

On top of revenue and stadium issues (and I still can't believe Esther Shiner Stadium in North York actually hosted professional soccer matches), wasn't the CSA also at odds with the CSL?

I remember former CSL Pres Dale Barnes saying over and over again that they lobbied the CSA to increase registration fees by $1 and it would have satisfied the teams' travel costs completely, but the CSA wouldn't budge. 

I am probably wrong but it felt to me that the CSA treated the CSL as a renegade league more than anything else. 🙂

[Free kick]

10 minutes ago, Metro said:

Two great posts FK.  Thanks.

On top of revenue and stadium issues (and I still can't believe Esther Shiner Stadium in North York actually hosted professional soccer matches), wasn't the CSA also at odds with the CSL?

I remember former CSL Pres Dale Barnes saying over and over again that they lobbied the CSA to increase registration fees by $1 and it would have satisfied the teams' travel costs completely, but the CSA wouldn't budge. 

I am probably wrong but it felt to me that the CSA treated the CSL as a renegade league more than anything else. 🙂

yes.  all true.  but that goes part and parcel with the Budget,  Funding and Revenues issue.  If the clubs and league wouldnt have had these issues,  they would not have had to go hat in hand to the CSA.

 

Ps.:  yes poor facilities.  that one could have a topic onto its own.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Free kick

[sstackho]

From CBC's The Journal 36 years ago:

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/canada-cracks-the-world-cup

 

4 hours ago, theaub said:

Throwback to the TSN documentary on the '86 team

 

That's my upload!  You can tell I have awesome encoding skills by the poor quality and the unedited ads. 

 

 

 

[Free kick]

Thanks.  That was a good video.  I had seen that before but it was a long time and i had forgotten about it.   The final twenty minutes are especially worth it.  

The CBC segment was also pretty good.  

Edited February 4, 2022 by Free kick

[red card]

9 hours ago, ray said:

Unfortunately, our '86 World Cup happened just prior to the advent of the (original) Canadian Soccer League.  How would things have been different (public interest/investor/sponsorship-wise) for the CSL had we qualified for Italia 1990, the first World Cup fully broadcast on Canadian television?

I'm interested in seeing what qualifying for Qatar does for the CPL and maybe the women's pro game.  I want to say it will be a significant boost but this is still Canada where corporate sponsorship outside of NHL/CFL/MLB is still a challenge.

The first World Cup broadcast on Canadian tv was 82 by the CBC. They basically showed all the matches but some were on a delayed basis. They also showed Mexico 86 and this time, it was all live ex if matches overlapped. TSN did it for the first time with Italia 90.

Canada vs France in 86 got about 1 million. Audiences for the other two weekday afternoon matches were much lower. Stadiums weren't full, style of play from Canada and Russia/Hungary were pretty boring, Canada was never really close to scoring a goal and no stand out players ex Dolan's performance vs France. Though having the Soviets in the same group did help with the pre-match story lines given the hockey ties. 

It never carried over because the NASL was already dead. And beyond the World Cup and some showing of the Euros, there was no pro soccer on tv to see. Live Premier League matches only started to be shown in 1998. It skewed Canadians view of football as similar to the Olympics: pay attention every 4 years, no clue about professional leagues and so viewed the sport as just for kids. 

They had a chance to reignite the flames by making USA 94 but blew it against Mexico at Varsity in the last match. This forced playoffs with Australia which they lost on penalty kicks but they then wouldn't have defeated Argentina anyway. 

The CSL helped to some degree but quality of play wasn't sufficient to develop enough good national team players and it didn't last long enough. It did put live league soccer on tv again. 

Canada also hosted the u16 World Cup in 87 but again never won a match and only scored 1 goal. TSN carried some of the matches.

https://www.fifa.com/tournaments/mens/u17worldcup/canada1987

Post 86, there was also a lot of naivety about Canada making it back to the World Cup. In hindsight, some thought they had all the answers. Others were largely clueless - we didn't know what we didn't know. End result was a walk in the football wilderness for a generation. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by red card

[sstackho]

5 hours ago, Free kick said:

The CBC segment was also pretty good.  

Except for the Vancouver parade scene.  That part physically hurts. 

[An Observer]

32 minutes ago, red card said:

The first World Cup broadcast on Canadian tv was 82 by the CBC. They basically showed all the matches but some were on a delayed basis. They also showed Mexico 86 and this time, it was all live ex if matches overlapped. TSN did it for the first time with Italia 90.

Canada vs France in 86 got about 1 million. Audiences for the other two weekday afternoon matches were much lower. Stadiums weren't full, style of play from Canada and Russia/Hungary were pretty boring, Canada was never really close to scoring a goal and no stand out players ex Dolan's performance vs France. Though having the Soviets in the same group did help with the pre-match story lines given the hockey ties. 

It never carried over because the NASL was already dead. And beyond the World Cup and some showing of the Euros, there was no pro soccer on tv to see. Live Premier League matches only started to be shown in 1998. It skewed Canadians view of football as similar to the Olympics: pay attention every 4 years, no clue about professional leagues and so viewed the sport as just for kids. 

They had a chance to reignite the flames by making USA 94 but blew it against Mexico at Varsity in the last match. This forced playoffs with Australia which they lost on penalty kicks but they then wouldn't have defeated Argentina anyway. 

The CSL helped to some degree but quality of play wasn't sufficient to develop enough good national team players and it didn't last long enough. It did put live league soccer on tv again. 

Canada also hosted the u16 World Cup in 87 but again never won a match and only scored 1 goal. TSN carried some of the matches.

https://www.fifa.com/tournaments/mens/u17worldcup/canada1987

Post 86, there was also a lot of naivety about Canada making it back to the World Cup. In hindsight, some thought they had all the answers. Others were largely clueless - we didn't know what we didn't know. End result was a walk in the football wilderness for a generation. 

I agree with most of this but I would say we did have a few good chances in the World Cup including vrablic in the box against France, and Ian Bridge header just wide, and Mitchell just putting it over on a free kick (indeed, it landed on top of the goal and I thought he had scored originally).  Also, Randy Samual signed for PSV on the back of the World Cup and he was the stand out player but a defender so really didn’t excite the casual fan like a Davies could/does

[Gian-Luca]

10 hours ago, Free kick said:

In my opinion, the quality of play of that league was too poor.   Hence not good enough to produce international quality talent.  I  watched regularly and attended some games in that league but the harsh reality is that the quality of play was poor and the foreign talent wasn't good enough to elevate the quality of play.  You need bigger budgets,  well funded and profitable clubs to pay for quality.  

best example,   today,  you see MLS players transferring to Bayern Munich, Brugge, Notts forest,  and some other first division sides in Italy or even Turkey.  I wish this could be better but back then , the best that our most promising CSL player (Jason Devos)could do was to land in Darlington,  you cant do much lower than that

I think Peschisolido & Bunbury were considered higher prospects as CSL players and they went to bigger clubs than De Vos did originally (De Vos was in his mid-late teens in the CSL & transferred to Darlington after playing for the Impact in the APSL or whatever the heck it was called back in the day).

That's not to disagree with your point overall about the quality of the play in that league, it was below NASL, and we all knew that at the time. But as for what the problems with the league, they went farther than just the lower qualify of play. The #1 reason for the demise of that league I think was down to certain CSL teams wanting to jump ship after 6 years because they figured the APSL was going to be upgraded to what the MLS is today (or a revival of the NASL) in light of the Americans getting the 1994 World Cup. Only it didn't turn out that way, the Americans started afresh with a new league that was completely American rather than upgrading the existing North American league that a few CSL teams jumped ship to.

 

 

[Gian-Luca]

Mention of the two weekday afternoon games Canada played at the 86 World Cup reminds me of an irritation about the 1986 World Cup - the games being played in Mexico in the middle of the afternoon in June for the benefit of the European viewers, presumably. Great for them, but crap for everyone else, including the players & the fans in attendance in Mexico. I was still in elementary school (final year) so I wasn't able to watch either the Hungary or USSR games live as I was in school and something went wrong with the VCR recording of the USSR game so I didn't get to see that game in its entirety until, would you believe, 2002 when Matthew Gourlie on this forum brought a copy of the game on a VHS with him to the UK to give to me when we all met up for the Canada-Scotland match that year (someone posted a photo of myself, him, Bill Spiers & a few other posters recently in one of the threads). Crazy to think that Scotland trip was 20 years ago now.....

[narduch]

1 hour ago, red card said:

The first World Cup broadcast on Canadian tv was 82 by the CBC. They basically showed all the matches but some were on a delayed basis. They also showed Mexico 86 and this time, it was all live ex if matches overlapped. TSN did it for the first time with Italia 90.

Canada vs France in 86 got about 1 million. Audiences for the other two weekday afternoon matches were much lower. Stadiums weren't full, style of play from Canada and Russia/Hungary were pretty boring, Canada was never really close to scoring a goal and no stand out players ex Dolan's performance vs France. Though having the Soviets in the same group did help with the pre-match story lines given the hockey ties. 

It never carried over because the NASL was already dead. And beyond the World Cup and some showing of the Euros, there was no pro soccer on tv to see. Live Premier League matches only started to be shown in 1998. It skewed Canadians view of football as similar to the Olympics: pay attention every 4 years, no clue about professional leagues and so viewed the sport as just for kids. 

They had a chance to reignite the flames by making USA 94 but blew it against Mexico at Varsity in the last match. This forced playoffs with Australia which they lost on penalty kicks but they then wouldn't have defeated Argentina anyway. 

The CSL helped to some degree but quality of play wasn't sufficient to develop enough good national team players and it didn't last long enough. It did put live league soccer on tv again. 

Canada also hosted the u16 World Cup in 87 but again never won a match and only scored 1 goal. TSN carried some of the matches.

https://www.fifa.com/tournaments/mens/u17worldcup/canada1987

Post 86, there was also a lot of naivety about Canada making it back to the World Cup. In hindsight, some thought they had all the answers. Others were largely clueless - we didn't know what we didn't know. End result was a walk in the football wilderness for a generation. 

My dad used to watch Italy World Cup matches at a movie theater in the 70s in Toronto. 

[TGAA_Star]

7 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Mention of the two weekday afternoon games Canada played at the 86 World Cup reminds me of an irritation about the 1986 World Cup - the games being played in Mexico in the middle of the afternoon in June for the benefit of the European viewers, presumably. Great for them, but crap for everyone else, including the players & the fans in attendance in Mexico. I was still in elementary school (final year) so I wasn't able to watch either the Hungary or USSR games live as I was in school and something went wrong with the VCR recording of the USSR game so I didn't get to see that game in its entirety until, would you believe, 2002 when Matthew Gourlie on this forum brought a copy of the game on a VHS with him to the UK to give to me when we all met up for the Canada-Scotland match that year (someone posted a photo of myself, him, Bill Spiers & a few other posters recently in one of the threads). Crazy to think that Scotland trip was 20 years ago now.....

But then we are mostly likely going to get early morning or afternoon games here in Canada once 2026 rolls around and said World Cup games are played in Canada depending on who plays in said stadiums I mean that's pretty much a given

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

18 hours ago, Metro said:

...I remember former CSL Pres Dale Barnes saying over and over again that they lobbied the CSA to increase registration fees by $1 and it would have satisfied the teams' travel costs completely, but the CSA wouldn't budge...

That did tend to be a recurring refrain on his International Sports Report on the FAN on Sunday mornings along with the anecdote of how Steeler beer stole the thunder of a sponsorship deal he had lined up for the league with another brewery. As much as I was a fan of the CSL it's not reasonable to expect amateur recreational players to subsidize a privately owned pro sports league most of them never watched, so he needed to look elsewhere for scapegoats including to a certain extent in the mirror. If Toronto Italia and Croatia had been on board rather than the Rockets would the league have been able to keep going after 1992?

Don't think Esther Shiner was the worst of the stadiums in the CSL. Vaguely remember that it looked like the Ottawa Intrepid were playing in a local public park at one point but it probably didn't help that the cameras would have been pointing away from the seated area. Looking back being able to watch multiple members of the CMNT playing for the 86ers at a venue like the Marconi Club in London, Ont is something that will never happen again and that's definitely a good thing.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[EJsens1]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That did tend to be a recurring refrain on his International Sports Report on the FAN on Sunday mornings along with the anecdote of how Steeler beer stole the thunder of a sponsorship deal he had lined up for the league with another brewery. As much as I was a fan of the CSL it's not reasonable to expect amateur recreational players to subsidize a privately owned pro sports league most of them never watched, so he needed to look elsewhere for scapegoats including to a certain extent in the mirror. If Toronto Italia and Croatia had been on board rather than the Rockets would the league have been able to keep going after 1992?

Don't think Esther Shiner was the worst of the stadiums in the CSL. Vaguely remember that it looked like the Ottawa Intrepid were playing in a local public park at one point but it probably didn't help that the cameras would have been pointing away from the seated area. Looking back being able to watch multiple members of the CMNT playing for the 86ers at a venue like the Marconi Club in London, Ont is something that will never happen again and that's definitely a good thing.

 Yeah the Intrepid played here.  Seats about 2000.  Terry Fox Stadium. Canada played Belgium there in like 1989 maybe? 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Didn't remember that one but apparently so and with strong looking teams :

https://www.transfermarkt.com/canada_belgium/index/spielbericht/3104466

and I thought the Intrepid having Ted Eck on board that year (top USMNT player of the time and needed to move to Canada to be able to find worthwhile soccer outdoors, which is a bit different from Pulisic being at Chelsea) would have been the most noteworthy aspect of soccer in Ottawa that year:

2. Matchday | Thu, 6/8/89   |  1:30 PM

0:2

(0:0)

Terry Fox Stadium  |  Attendance: 3.300
Referee: tbc

Canada

Goalkeeper	Craig Forrest
Defenders	Stephen Francis Jansen, Colin Miller, Enzo Concina
Midfielders	Norman Odinga, John Limniatis, Gerry Gray
Forwards	Dale Mitchell, Alex Bunbury
Manager	Bob Lenarduzzi

Belgium

Goalkeeper	Michel Preud'homme
Defenders	Philippe Albert, Jean-Francois De Sart, Eric Gerets
Midfielders	Franky Van der Elst, Marc Emmers, Koen Sanders, Patrick Vervoort, Jan Ceulemans
Forwards	Marc Degryse, Marc Van Der Linden
Manager	Guy Thys

Edited February 5, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[JamboAl]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That did tend to be a recurring refrain on his International Sports Report on the FAN on Sunday mornings along with the anecdote of how Steeler beer stole the thunder of a sponsorship deal he had lined up for the league with another brewery. As much as I was a fan of the CSL it's not reasonable to expect amateur recreational players to subsidize a privately owned pro sports league most of them never watched, so he needed to look elsewhere for scapegoats including to a certain extent in the mirror. If Toronto Italia and Croatia had been on board rather than the Rockets would the league have been able to keep going after 1992?

Don't think Esther Shiner was the worst of the stadiums in the CSL. Vaguely remember that it looked like the Ottawa Intrepid were playing in a local public park at one point but it probably didn't help that the cameras would have been pointing away from the seated area. Looking back being able to watch multiple members of the CMNT playing for the 86ers at a venue like the Marconi Club in London, Ont is something that will never happen again and that's definitely a good thing.

I was at the first ever CSL game at a place called Aydelu Park in Aylmer, QC when I was in high school.  That place made Terry Fox Park look like Wembley.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

On 2/4/2022 at 7:06 AM, Free kick said:

...Another problem with 1986,   is that it was basically a BC side. Most of the players came from the west coast.  Part of that made sense because the Whitecaps were a powerhouse in the NASL before it folded.   You can debate whether or not there was favoritism but, you can safely say that if the large population base of central Canada is not a factor in the team composition, your base will probably be poor because your talent pool is very limited and restricted...

Don't think there was anything sinister to the strong BC influence. The big advantage BC has over Ontario and Quebec in soccer is being able to play outdoors year round. The growth of indoor facilities has largely negated that in the present day.