Lukas MacNaughton

[costarg]

16 minutes ago, RS said:

If you're counting Piette for Montreal then you have to count Laryea for Toronto, IMO. Also not sure why Cornelius counts towards Vancouver when he played for CANMNT prior to joining the Whitecaps.

None of the three teams is obviously ahead or behind in this area.

Wasn't Laryea was 24 when he came to TFC? 

I agree, no one is "winning" this, but fun exercise.

I would just give it all to Vancouver for bringing up Davies the correct way and not f'ing that up.  For the rest, lets come back in 3-4 years.

[Bigandy]

34 minutes ago, costarg said:

If you take Cornelius and ZBG out, you need to remove Fraser as well.  So that makes it:

TFC = 2 - VWC=2 - CFM = 3

Your finger is on the scale dude.... if you're counting Akinola, Kerr.... as top prospects you can add Pantemis, Waterman....  we're just going back and forth.

If we want to talk about ceilings, the conversation starts and ends with Davies and Kone.  The rest is all just hypothetical forecasting.  We'll have to come back here in 3 years to add it all up, and given the names above, I'm very comfortable with my statement.  TFC has the largest yard with the most cash and has produced less quantity and quality.

 

Pantemis is an option but waterman was bought like mcnaughton (what about toronto getting laryea and MAK included if waterman is?). So sure, include both of them as well. 

Fraser played 5 games in WCQ. I was literally using your cut off of 3 realish games. ZBG and Cornelius didnt play more than 3, fraser did. 

EDIT: Fraser played 6 WCQ matches.

Even with you moving the goal post against toronto (where I add more players for Vancouver and montreal but take away from toronto), the numbers are 
Contributors: 2,2,3 - pretty even.
Prospects: 12, 9, 4 - lopsided towards toronto.

I dont have my finger on the scale. I dont support toronto. I am just responding to your bias that toronto is behind the curve. 

The numbers do not support your claim that toronto is behind the curve. Thats my only point. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Bigandy

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, Ruffian said:

These club coaches are part of the Canadian development system. They are the grass roots level of it.

Clubs have their own development path at the competitive level. CSA and their “development” has nothing to do with that if that is where you are going with this. 

[Ruffian]

3 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Clubs have their own development path at the competitive level. CSA and their “development” has nothing to do with that if that is where you are going with this. 

No mention of CSA

[Bison44]

Everyone could and should be doing a better job.  But I do think TFC is behind the curve, just because they have the biggest/best pool to draw from and we all see the amount of untapped talent that finds its way to the CMNT,  while avoiding the TFC academy. I dont expect TFC to catch every kid,  but it seems like more get to the top of the game through other pathways than through TFC academy.  

[Ottawafan]

3 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

No mention of CSA

Gotcha. 

[Bigandy]

9 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Everyone could and should be doing a better job.  But I do think TFC is behind the curve, just because they have the biggest/best pool to draw from and we all see the amount of untapped talent that finds its way to the CMNT,  while avoiding the TFC academy. I dont expect TFC to catch every kid,  but it seems like more get to the top of the game through other pathways than through TFC academy.  

I 100% agree with this, but the same argument can be made with vancouver as well.  Davies is an anomaly, adekugbe and cornelius were never properly nurtured. Tiebert is the only real contribution that the whitecaps developed and he was only around in the dark days of CMNT. With whitecaps able to pull from all of western Canada, they have a pretty deep and diverse pool to pick from and I would say they produce the worst out of the 3 teams. 

[costarg]

21 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Pantemis is an option but waterman was bought like mcnaughton (what about toronto getting laryea and MAK included if waterman is?). So sure, include both of them as well. 

Fraser played 5 games in WCQ. I was literally using your cut off of 3 realish games. ZBG and Cornelius didnt play more than 3, fraser did. 

EDIT: Fraser played 6 WCQ matches.

Even with you moving the goal post against toronto (where I add more players for Vancouver and montreal but take away from toronto), the numbers are 
Contributors: 2,2,3 - pretty even.
Prospects: 12, 9, 4 - lopsided towards toronto.

I dont have my finger on the scale. I dont support toronto. I am just responding to your bias that toronto is behind the curve. 

The numbers do not support your claim that toronto is behind the curve. Thats my only point. 

Fraser = 208 minutes, not quite 6 full matches.  There is a fine line there.

Kaye and Laryea were not developed by TFC.  

Saying Corbeanu was developed by TFC is a stretch.  Like saying you visited a city, cause you had connecting flight.

This is going nowhere.  The prospects haven't achieved anything and its a guessing game.  None of the prospects you listed even come close to Ahmed, Choiniere and Sirois today. 

It was fun, but bordering pointless now.

 

[canuckgbp]

58 minutes ago, costarg said:

Wasn't Laryea was 24 when he came to TFC? 

I agree, no one is "winning" this, but fun exercise.

I would just give it all to Vancouver for bringing up Davies the correct way and not f'ing that up.  For the rest, lets come back in 3-4 years.

Laryea was a midfielder for Orlando and was down and out. TFC took a chance on him and developed him into the FB we see today. It is not the typical academy case but they moved him to FB and he thrived.
 

In terms of his FB develop I think TFC can take credit for that if we look at it in balance. 

[costarg]

Just now, canuckgbp said:

Laryea was a midfielder for Orlando and was down and out. TFC took a chance on him and developed him into the FB we see today. It is not the typical academy case but they moved him to FB and he thrived.
 

In terms of his FB develop I think TFC can take credit for that if we look at it in balance. 

ok then, add Kamal Miller to the CFM list then.

Shall we move Henry over to VWC since they gave him the second chance after the injury?

This is going nowhere guys.

[canuckgbp]

13 minutes ago, costarg said:

ok then, add Kamal Miller to the CFM list then.

Shall we move Henry over to VWC since they gave him the second chance after the injury?

This is going nowhere guys.

Well why not go with academy produced players that have become pros and have gotten MLS minutes? That’s something tangible. 

Edit- All of Laryea’s caps came when he was a TFC player. I agree this is all meaningless but we are just responding. 

And no we wouldn’t put Henry into that.  2nd TFC academy graduate that TFC let go because he wanted to try his hand in Europe. Toronto also brought him back after he moved on from Vancouver. 
 

edit- MLS because it’s a decent level to judge at but you could include other leagues. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by canuckgbp

[RS]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Wasn't Laryea was 24 when he came to TFC? 

Yes, and Piette was almost 23. Both improved immensely after joining their hometown MLS team.

Piette already had 30+ caps for Canada by the time he joined the Impact, so he probably shouldn't be counted by the spirit of this discussion. But if he does count for Montreal, then so should Laryea for Toronto.

[canuckgbp]

Btw, to somewhat get this thread on track with regards to MacNaughton is that he often gets lumped into the “young group”.

He is 28 and seems to be blooming late. It is definitely an interesting case. 

[Bigandy]

15 minutes ago, costarg said:

Fraser = 208 minutes, not quite 6 full matches.  There is a fine line there.

Kaye and Laryea were not developed by TFC.  

Saying Corbeanu was developed by TFC is a stretch.  Like saying you visited a city, cause you had connecting flight.

This is going nowhere.  The prospects haven't achieved anything and its a guessing game.  None of the prospects you listed even come close to Ahmed, Choiniere and Sirois today. 

It was fun, but bordering pointless now.

 

It seems that every TFC player you disregard and every non TFC player is boosted. 

Like how you will include corelius,  piette and waterman as home grown developments (when they were pro's and joined in there 20'sish) but wont include laryea or fraser. 

I dont disagree that corbeanu is a stretch. We can endlessly debate what criteria we should use to judge which academy is working but its a stretch when youre being bias and not consistent with your standards.  I actually think that montreal will end up contributing to the national team more than toronto in the future but as things stand, TFC is not behind vancouver in terms of prospects... nor are they significantly behind in CMNT contributions. 

[Obinna]

The Lukas Macnaughton thread is HOT

The way we are losing dual internationals I thought Macnaughton may have switched to the USA 

[canuckgbp]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

It seems that every TFC player you disregard and every non TFC player is boosted. 

Like how you will include corelius,  piette and waterman as home grown developments (when they were pro's and joined in there 20'sish) but wont include laryea or fraser. 

I dont disagree that corbeanu is a stretch. We can endlessly debate what criteria we should use to judge which academy is working but its a stretch when youre being bias and not consistent with your standards.  I actually think that montreal will end up contributing to the national team more than toronto in the future but as things stand, TFC is not behind vancouver in terms of prospects... nor are they significantly behind in CMNT contributions. 

Especially when Fraser was a TFC academy graduate, played at TFC 2 then the first team. And received his first national team caps as a TFC player. 
 

[ADP10]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

The Lukas Macnaughton thread is HOT

The way we are losing dual internationals I thought Macnaughton may have switched to the USA 

I thought he had a traumatizing injury or something 

[canuckgbp]

He has nice hair tho 

[Obinna]

Just now, canuckgbp said:

He has nice hair tho 

Not as nice as Shaffelburg's mullet

[TOcanadafan]

50 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Everyone could and should be doing a better job.  But I do think TFC is behind the curve, just because they have the biggest/best pool to draw from and we all see the amount of untapped talent that finds its way to the CMNT,  while avoiding the TFC academy. I dont expect TFC to catch every kid,  but it seems like more get to the top of the game through other pathways than through TFC academy.  

Completely agree.  For all the talent TFC has at its disposal, they do a piss poor job of developing it.  Sure they give these youngsters exposure (which is a huge plus) but so many of these prospects (especially the current ones) stall or might actually get worse when they sniff the first team.  Imagine if JMR had signed with the Liverpool academy… he would have been exposed to way better coaching, higher age-level appropriate competition and a proven development system… instead he’s a mess.  Would also say Kosi and Kerr have stalled or regressed. I also question the quality of development at the TFC II level.

[nolando]

21 minutes ago, ADP10 said:

I thought he had a traumatizing injury or something 

Such a quintessential Voyageurs reaction. 😄 

[An Observer]

I posted this a little while back in the TFC thread so will repost here. Basically, all 3 are shit at developing players and TFC is the worse:

“I tend to agree with you.  For a very long time, TFC players have dominated the selection of our U20, U17 and U15 teams.  It is well known that the Toronto area produces by far the greatest number of soccer (and basketball!) players in the country and TFC gets to pick the cream of the crop as evidenced by the national youth selections.  Currently, if I look at the Canadian soccer team's wikipedia page and the current roster and recent call ups, there are 48 players on the list list.  From the TFC academy, there are 6 (a little over 10% of the total):

    Liam Fraser (who also played in the Whitecaps academy)
    Jayden Nelson
    Jacen Russell-Rowe (who was released by TFC before turning pro and went to Columbus after college)
    Doneil Henry
    Mark-Anthony Kaye (who was releasted by TFC before turning pro and went to LAFC after a stint in USL)
    Aki Akinola

    So two of those players were actually released by TFC before turning pro and had to make it elsewhere and one of them was jointly developed with the Whitecaps.  And none of the 6 are mainstays of the national team.  Henry you could argue was a few years back and Kaye for a short period of time when he was at LAFC.  None are even sure selections these days to the roster no matter starters.
    There are 3 others that were signed late in their youth career and spent some time with the reserves (TFC II) and of those only Osorio has stuck with TFC and prospered (but that's not related to the youth set up anyway).

    Raheen Edwards
    Jonathan Osorio
    Jacob Shaffleburg

    As a comparison, VFC has 5 (Ahmed, Fraser, Hasel, Adekugbe, and Davies) and CFM (Choiniere, Kone, Crepeau, Pantemis) has 4 youth players in that 48 in spite of having much less to work with.

    And from the Toronto area (in TFC's catchment) you have the following 11 on the national side:

    Dwayne St. Clair
    Kamal Miller
    Richie Laryea
    Liam Miller
    Lucas Cavallini
    Junior Hoilett
    Alistair Johnson
    Derek Cornelius
    Cyle Larin
    Tajon Buchanan
    Theo Corbeanu

    You coud make a case for Jonathan David as well but he is from Ottawa so not quite in the catchment.  A few like Hutchinson, Vitoria and Borjan are too old to have been in TFC academy but are from the area.  What stands out is the fact that our best players come from elsewhere other than the 3 academies.

    So frankly a quite pathetic record.  Yes, you can argue they edge VFC and CFM but those two have a smaller catchment area.  CFM has done well recently and is growing; VFC you could argue is worse than TFC, especially recently and so sad after having one of the best programs in NA not that long ago.

    From observing the players, it seems clear to me that when they graduate to the pro ranks, they are not fully rounded.  They are missing the fundamentals.  It seems as if due to their either greater physical gifts or early development, they can simply bully and dominate other teams so don't refine those skills while a youth player which when they get to the pro ranks becomes glaringly obvoius.  

    Considering they get the cream of the cream, they should be doing a lot better.  They should be like Ajax and the Netherlands. 25% or more of the national team should have come through them.  And VFC and CFM should be like PSV and Feyenoord.  As it is, our best players (other than Davies) are developed elsehwhere.  That is pathethic.”
 

     
 
 

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, canuckgbp said:

Btw, to somewhat get this thread on track with regards to MacNaughton is that he often gets lumped into the “young group”.

He is 28 and seems to be blooming late. It is definitely an interesting case. 

Is he blooming late or was he just missed/ignored?

[Acid-Tone]

2 hours ago, canuckgbp said:

He has nice hair tho 

I heard he was Ken in that new Barbie movie!

[kacbru]

Re: youth development debate. I read this and it seems like it has descended to an argument about who's shit stinks the least. Yes, you can come up with all kinds of arguments about how to assess the relative stench, but at the end of the day, it is all shit.

All the MLS academies should be doing much better.