Lukas MacNaughton

[Shway]

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Are TFC leaders in Canadian development because of their program is excellent or is it because they are in the player rich GTA? Feels like the latter, but regardless I think it's clear that TFC do "export" the most players in Canadian club football.

I feel it's a bit of both tbh. Which is sad from a Whitecaps perspective because they were doing the right things long before any professional club had an academy, now their funnel has seemed to dry up.

The GTA may be more player rich than the likes of Vancouver or MTL, but it also doesn't make sense how Alberta has produced more top professionals than them. So population is only a relative metric - imo.

[Shway]

3 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

I agree with you with someone like Okello. Either he should have been sold or went out of loan more to continue development. Thing is, it appears he just isn't good. 

Okello was injured, returned from injury and went on loan to Denmark where he played well in their second division. 
He came back with the expectation of getting more minutes but was injured again and upon full health he got opportunities but just didn't show out. 

He signed with NEReserves in the hopes of doing a Farsi....but has only played 3 games this season likely due to injury.

[Obinna]

49 minutes ago, Shway said:

I feel it's a bit of both tbh. Which is sad from a Whitecaps perspective because they were doing the right things long before any professional club had an academy, now their funnel has seemed to dry up.

The GTA may be more player rich than the likes of Vancouver or MTL, but it also doesn't make sense how Alberta has produced more top professionals than them. So population is only a relative metric - imo.

It's a fair point. I watched the recent One Soccer vid where they did a deep dive into the BC landscape. They touched on the dearth of BC pro players relative to Ontario, Quebec and even Alberta. One thing mentioned was the Whitecaps system of acadameys outside it's local catchment area.

For example, a player identified at the Saskatchewan Whitecaps academy may be shipped to Vancouver and would take a spot from a BC kid in the process.

I am not sure how much this negatively impacts BC but I guess it's worth mentioning. As far as I know TFC and CFM setups aren't found outside their respective provinces, but you can find Whitecaps "academies" all over the nation, even as far away as Newfoundland, believe it or not.

Side note: This may actually strengthen your argument since TFC still produces more players than Vancouver despite all those setups.

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, Obinna said:

It's a fair point. I watched the recent One Soccer vid where they did a deep dive into the BC landscape. They touched on the dearth of BC pro players relative to Ontario, Quebec and even Alberta. One thing mentioned was the Whitecaps system of acadameys outside it's local catchment area.

For example, a player identified at the Saskatchewan Whitecaps academy may be shipped to Vancouver and would take a spot from a BC kid in the process.

I am not sure how much this negatively impacts BC but I guess it's worth mentioning. As far as I know TFC and CFM setups aren't found outside their respective provinces, but you can find Whitecaps "academies" all over the nation, even as far away as Newfoundland, believe it or not.

Side note: This may actually strengthen your argument since TFC still produces more players than Vancouver despite all those setups.

I am not sure how much weight i would put into the whitecap "academies". Places like cranbrook, vernon, kimberly, cochrane and lethbridge are whitecaps affiliated. The level of most of these academy prospects is very rarely anywhere near whitecaps levels. Of course there are exceptions to the rules but I dont see how finding the odd exceptional talent in a farther away center would negatively impact the whitecaps ability to produce players. If anything, it creates more competition and increase the liklihood of a top prospect developing properly. 

On the flip side, losing 1-5 bc roster spots to out of province players, per age group is very unlikely to significantly impact how many BC kids make the whitecaps. Lets assume the top 2-3 players per age group make whitecaps in a good year. There's still 15+ BC kids available per age group that could be the ones to make the jump to the first team. But thats not happening. 

The issue is not that the whitecaps spread their net wider. The issue is a lack of talent identification and/or developing those talents.  

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I am not sure how much weight i would put into the whitecap "academies". Places like cranbrook, vernon, kimberly, cochrane and lethbridge are whitecaps affiliated. The level of most of these academy prospects is very rarely anywhere near whitecaps levels. Of course there are exceptions to the rules but I dont see how finding the odd exceptional talent in a farther away center would negatively impact the whitecaps ability to produce players. If anything, it creates more competition and increase the liklihood of a top prospect developing properly. 

On the flip side, losing 1-5 bc roster spots to out of province players, per age group is very unlikely to significantly impact how many BC kids make the whitecaps. Lets assume the top 2-3 players per age group make whitecaps in a good year. There's still 15+ BC kids available per age group that could be the ones to make the jump to the first team. But thats not happening. 

The issue is not that the whitecaps spread their net wider. The issue is a lack of talent identification and/or developing those talents.  

Totally agree. That's why I don't put much stock in it. And that's also why I put "academy" in quotations. Was just saying it's worth mentioning since the One Soccer crowd thought enough about it to highlight it as a possible reason for the lack of BC representation in the pro game. 

The Whitecaps "academy" in St. John's Newfoundland, for example, was before my time, so I don't have any big insights on it, but from the little I know it's just a rebranding of what's already there. I bet it's ditto for Lethbridge and some of these other areas. Someone from the Caps maybe takes a trip out once a year to visit the setup, but that's it. 

I am curious about Cochrane though. That's basically Calgary, which is a pretty large player catchment area obviously. I never even knew they had an "academy" in Cochrane though, so that may speak to how little of a deal that particular setup is.

[BearcatSA]

11 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Totally agree. That's why I don't put much stock in it. And that's also why I put "academy" in quotations. Was just saying it's worth mentioning since the One Soccer crowd thought enough about it to highlight it as a possible reason for the lack of BC representation in the pro game. 

The Whitecaps "academy" in St. John's Newfoundland, for example, was before my time, so I don't have any big insights on it, but from the little I know it's just a rebranding of what's already there. I bet it's ditto for Lethbridge and some of these other areas. Someone from the Caps maybe takes a trip out once a year to visit the setup, but that's it. 

I am curious about Cochrane though. That's basically Calgary, which is a pretty large player catchment area obviously. I never even knew they had an "academy" in Cochrane though, so that may speak to how little of a deal that particular setup 

It's all about brand recognition.

[costarg]

Good points guys, @Shway @canuckgbp @Aird25, I agree with many of them and I'm enjoying the feedback. 

Regarding CANMNT reps, I feel its kinda normal there will be more players that passed through TFC, we can't ignore the massive population as well as the size and money invested from TFC in the academy.  But TFC still hasn't produced the best players or a major star, so there is also that against their development model.

As far as transfers and minutes, I feel we're looking at the last 12 months which skews the numbers drastically.  I haven't looked up the stats, but if TFC is in fact leading minutes, it's gotta be the first time ever, and it's gotta be really close, not like they're dominating anything there.

Lets look at transfers, take Shaffelburg, do you feel he's doing so well because he was developed at TFC or in spite of it?  He transferred like 7 months ago?  How much better is he now?  TFC got $300k in GAM, Transfermarkt has him valued at $2.5m.  Is that good business?  Just another example of poor management, not success.

Are the players happy at TFC?  Are the players being transferred sad or relieved?  Even while they were successful, Osorio was interested in leaving, Laryea was trying to leave, only guy that seems settled (too settled) in all this is Bradley and he's not CANMNT.

The Barcelona comment was a veiled remark regarding the benching the youngsters would get after a solid outing.  it's happened to several kids, several times under Vanney as well as Bradley.  It's just something that does not happen elsewhere.  

Hope I'm not coming off too rough with this stuff, really just a fan letting it out.  Cheers!

 

[RS]

16 minutes ago, costarg said:

As far as transfers and minutes, I feel we're looking at the last 12 months which skews the numbers drastically.  I haven't looked up the stats, but if TFC is in fact leading minutes, it's gotta be the first time ever, and it's gotta be really close, not like they're dominating anything there.

The three MLS teams have all taken turns leading in CanCon minutes since 2012 (when Montreal joined the league). @jonovision used to track those numbers but stopped when the CPL started.

TFC and CFMTL have pretty much been neck and neck over the past two seasons (maybe three, but I’m just remembering this off the top of my head), while the Whitecaps have lagged way behind during this time. @Corazon has the numbers for the last few seasons.

 

[Bigandy]

12 hours ago, costarg said:

Good points guys, @Shway @canuckgbp @Aird25, I agree with many of them and I'm enjoying the feedback. 

Regarding CANMNT reps, I feel its kinda normal there will be more players that passed through TFC, we can't ignore the massive population as well as the size and money invested from TFC in the academy.  But TFC still hasn't produced the best players or a major star, so there is also that against their development model.

As far as transfers and minutes, I feel we're looking at the last 12 months which skews the numbers drastically.  I haven't looked up the stats, but if TFC is in fact leading minutes, it's gotta be the first time ever, and it's gotta be really close, not like they're dominating anything there.

Lets look at transfers, take Shaffelburg, do you feel he's doing so well because he was developed at TFC or in spite of it?  He transferred like 7 months ago?  How much better is he now?  TFC got $300k in GAM, Transfermarkt has him valued at $2.5m.  Is that good business?  Just another example of poor management, not success.

Are the players happy at TFC?  Are the players being transferred sad or relieved?  Even while they were successful, Osorio was interested in leaving, Laryea was trying to leave, only guy that seems settled (too settled) in all this is Bradley and he's not CANMNT.

The Barcelona comment was a veiled remark regarding the benching the youngsters would get after a solid outing.  it's happened to several kids, several times under Vanney as well as Bradley.  It's just something that does not happen elsewhere.  

Hope I'm not coming off too rough with this stuff, really just a fan letting it out.  Cheers!

 

Other than davies, have any of the canadian academies produced stars? 

CMNT contributions since 2010ish
TFC
1. Oso
2. Nelson
3. Shaf
4. Akinola
5. fraser
6. Mcnaughton?
7. Corbeanu?
8. Henry
9. Okello
10. Edwards
11. Hamilton
12. Bekker
13. JMR 

Whitecaps
1. Tiebert
2. Cornelius
3. Adekugbe
4. Hasal
5. Davies
6. Froese
7. Bustos
8. ahmed
9. Farmer?
10.  Clarke?

Montreal
1.Kone
2. Piette
3. Waterman?
4. ZBG
5. Bassong
6. tabla
7. Breza
8. Pantemis
9. Crepeau 

I feel like im missing a ton of guys but theres not really tons of top talent coming through the canadian academies. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Bigandy

[Ruffian]

39 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Other than davies, have any of the canadian academies produced stars? 

CMNT contributions since 2010ish
TFC
1. Oso
2. Nelson
3. Shaf
4. Akinola
5. fraser
6. Mcnaughton?
7. Corbeanu?
8. Henry
9. Okello
10. Edwards
11. Hamilton
12. Bekker

Whitecaps
1. Tiebert
2. Cornelius
3. Adekugbe
4. Hasal
5. Davies
6. Froese
7. Bustos
8. ahmed

Montreal
1.Kone
2. Piette
3. Waterman?

I feel like im missing a ton of guys but theres not really tons of top talent coming through the canadian academies. 

I think if you are adding guys like Mcnaughton and Cornelius who came into the team at a later stage then you can add a lot of guys to Montreal. Piette, Waterman, Brault-Guillard. Likely more.

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, Ruffian said:

I think if you are adding guys like Mcnaughton and Cornelius who came into the team at a later stage then you can add a lot of guys to Montreal. Piette, Waterman, Brault-Guillard. Likely more.

piette and waterman are included already on my list but ZBG is a fair shout.  

[Ruffian]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

piette and waterman are included already on my list but ZBG is a fair shout.  

That is very poor reading skills on my part! I just saw that list and it looked short based on how many Canadians came to Montreal. Bassong, Tabla, Choiniere, Breza, Pantemis, Crépeau

Edited August 11, 2023 by Ruffian

[Bigandy]

10 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

That is very poor reading skills on my part! I just saw that list and it looked short based on how many Canadians came to Montreal. Bassong, Tabla, Choiniere, Breza, Pantemis, Crépeau

All good.  Appreciate your update list. 

I left choiniere of the list just like rea, franklin etc. are not included because they havnt impacted the CMNT yet. 

[InglewoodJack]

 

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Other than davies, have any of the canadian academies produced stars? 

CMNT contributions since 2010ish
TFC
1. Oso
2. Nelson
3. Shaf
4. Akinola
5. fraser
6. Mcnaughton?
7. Corbeanu?
8. Henry
9. Okello
10. Edwards
11. Hamilton
12. Bekker
13. JMR 

Whitecaps
1. Tiebert
2. Cornelius
3. Adekugbe
4. Hasal
5. Davies
6. Froese
7. Bustos
8. ahmed
9. Farmer?
10.  Clarke?

Montreal
1.Kone
2. Piette
3. Waterman?
4. ZBG
5. Bassong
6. tabla
7. Breza
8. Pantemis
9. Crepeau 

I feel like im missing a ton of guys but theres not really tons of top talent coming through the canadian academies. 

I wonder how much of this is due to NCAA scouts heavily scouting the GTA and not so much the other regions of Canada. When you look at our NCAA NT players, it's Tajon, Larin, Laryea, Johnston, Miller, JRR, even Raheem Edwards, all GTA guys. Of course Bombito and Hiebert also went the NCAA route, but by and large, almost all of our NCAA players come from Toronto. I think the NCAA route- getting a scholarship and still being able to get drafted or sign directly in Europe is a much more enticing plan than trying to climb the academy ranks. If that path wasn't available to these players, much like that path not being a thing anywhere else outside of NA, most of those guys would've been TFC players.

Beyond that though, when I look at those lists, each of our 3 top tier clubs in the country have all produced several national team starters and bench players. Can mid table premier league teams say that about England's NT, for example? Like every other country, our best players will always develop at big European academies, whether it's David in Belgium, Liam Millar with Liverpool, Corbeanu with Wolves, Hoilett with Blackburn, Kone came very close to signing with Brugge before Montreal swooped in, and Davies would've likely went directly to Europe if he had the passport.

 

 

[costarg]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Other than davies, have any of the canadian academies produced stars? 

CMNT contributions since 2010ish
TFC
1. Oso
2. Nelson
3. Shaf
4. Akinola
5. fraser
6. Mcnaughton?
7. Corbeanu?
8. Henry
9. Okello
10. Edwards
11. Hamilton
12. Bekker
13. JMR 

Whitecaps
1. Tiebert
2. Cornelius
3. Adekugbe
4. Hasal
5. Davies
6. Froese
7. Bustos
8. ahmed
9. Farmer?
10.  Clarke?

Montreal
1.Kone
2. Piette
3. Waterman?
4. ZBG
5. Bassong
6. tabla
7. Breza
8. Pantemis
9. Crepeau 

I feel like im missing a ton of guys but theres not really tons of top talent coming through the canadian academies. 

Don't wanna sound elitist or anything, but is it worth counting the guys that went from MLS to CPL like Bekker, Hamilton, Okello, etc... ?  That isn't the development we're talking about right?  Cause i don't think I see them playing for CANMNT any time soon.  

If we do count those guys, we gotta throw in all the Ouimettes, Tissots, Shones, JGLs, Yao's, etc...

There are still probably a lot of names missing, but how does one look at that list and not feel like TFC is behind the curve?

[Bigandy]

17 minutes ago, costarg said:

Don't wanna sound elitist or anything, but is it worth counting the guys that went from MLS to CPL like Bekker, Hamilton, Okello, etc... ?  That isn't the development we're talking about right?  Cause i don't think I see them playing for CANMNT any time soon.  

If we do count those guys, we gotta throw in all the Ouimettes, Tissots, Shones, JGLs, Yao's, etc...

There are still probably a lot of names missing, but how does one look at that list and not feel like TFC is behind the curve?

For sure! I basically tried to include guys who developed at the MLS academies-ish and played for canada. Like why would  caleb clarke and jackson farmer count?

As for saying TFC is behind the curve, i disagree. 
They have 10 guys on the list who have either contributed meaningfully or are guys within the conversation and are likely to contribute in the future (Nelson, jmr etc).

Whitecaps have 5 if you include tiebert

Montreal has 4 plus 1-3ish GK depending on how you look at GK. 

I have no idea how you can say quantity wise that TFC is behind the curve. If you look at quality, kone is the only significant player montreal has produced. Davies and adekugbe are the only whitecaps quality players (cornelius and ahmed  are likely to be added but they havnt really lit up CMNT yet). Toronto has Oso, fraser and henry who contributed to WCQ with some high potential guys like corbeanu, shaf, nelson, jmr.  

We can split hairs on the quality argument but TFC is certainly in the conversation for best quality produced if you take davies as the anomaly. 
 

[Ruffian]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

Like every other country, our best players will always develop at big European academies, whether it's David in Belgium, Liam Millar with Liverpool, Corbeanu with Wolves, Hoilett with Blackburn, Kone came very close to signing with Brugge before Montreal swooped in, and Davies would've likely went directly to Europe if he had the passport.

You are making a big effort to exclude the Whitecaps' and Montreal's impact on Davies' and Kone's success.

The way I see it is that most of our national team had MLS and CPL as part of their development. There are few who didn't like David and Eustáquio. The list of Canadian players who chose a European academy route instead of a Canadian academy route has just as poor a record as our MLS teams developing players for our national team.

[Ruffian]

I would also give credit for Jonathan David's development to part of the Canadian development system. He arrived at Gent as a quality player already.

[InglewoodJack]

39 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

You are making a big effort to exclude the Whitecaps' and Montreal's impact on Davies' and Kone's success.

The way I see it is that most of our national team had MLS and CPL as part of their development. There are few who didn't like David and Eustáquio. The list of Canadian players who chose a European academy route instead of a Canadian academy route has just as poor a record as our MLS teams developing players for our national team.

No, not at all, just that top prospects will go to Europe as early as they're able to; in Davies' case, he didn't have the passport, and in Kone's case, Montreal came to their senses at the last minute instead of snubbing him like they did Farsi. I don't think we can point to players like this and argue that it's a sign that TFC can't develop players- perhaps if Kone was from Mississauga instead of NDG, he would've been offered a scholarship and went to the US. Perhaps if Davies had obtained Liberian citizenship via his parents, he could've went directly to Europe at 15- there were certainly interested clubs. Doesn't mean that they would've developed the same way as they did, of course.

Point was more so that players in the GTA have better access to the NCAA pathway than players anywhere else in the country, so Toronto looses a lot of its best talent because going the college route is probably a safer bet than hoping you can climb through a club academy. If the NCAA pathway was not an option for Canadians, like it mostly isn't for any other country than the US, those guys would've all had to come through the TFC system. When you factor that in, I don't think TFC has done as bad a job at developing players as we give them credit for; they just lose a lot of top talent in a way that isn't really the case with WC and CFM.

Also, when you compare any top european national team, it would be insane to expect 3 domestic clubs who are ~mid table in their league to pump out generational stars every couple years. All three MLS teams have produced at least one NT star- Davies, Osorio, Kone, and some really strong depth pieces. Still think TFC is due to produce a bonafide world class player given their territory, but I don't know that our expectations for what a team like that can realistically produce are fair.

Edited August 11, 2023 by InglewoodJack

[Ottawafan]

36 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

I would also give credit for Jonathan David's development to part of the Canadian development system. He arrived at Gent as a quality player already.

David was strictly his club coach at his local club until he went overseas as an 18 year old.

[Ruffian]

4 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

David was strictly his club coach at his local club until he went overseas as an 18 year old.

These club coaches are part of the Canadian development system. They are the grass roots level of it.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

For sure! I basically tried to include guys who developed at the MLS academies-ish and played for canada. Like why would  caleb clarke and jackson farmer count?

As for saying TFC is behind the curve, i disagree. 
They have 10 guys on the list who have either contributed meaningfully or are guys within the conversation and are likely to contribute in the future (Nelson, jmr etc).

Whitecaps have 5 if you include tiebert

Montreal has 4 plus 1-3ish GK depending on how you look at GK. 

I have no idea how you can say quantity wise that TFC is behind the curve. If you look at quality, kone is the only significant player montreal has produced. Davies and adekugbe are the only whitecaps quality players (cornelius and ahmed  are likely to be added but they havnt really lit up CMNT yet). Toronto has Oso, fraser and henry who contributed to WCQ with some high potential guys like corbeanu, shaf, nelson, jmr.  

We can split hairs on the quality argument but TFC is certainly in the conversation for best quality produced if you take davies as the anomaly. 
 

I'm not seeing it.  Lets count.  I suggest we go with 3+ presences for CANMNT in "realish" games.

• TFC has 3 guys that contributed the past few years. (Osorio, Fraser and Henry)
• VWC: 3, with 2 strong contributers (Davies, Adekubgbe, Cornelius, do we add Tiebert?)
• CFM has 4. (Piette, Kone, Crepeau & ZBG)

If we discuss guys that are likely to contribute, like Nelson, JMR, Kerr… we need to add Choiniere, Sirois, Saliba, Rea, Zouhir, Breza….

I still don't see where TFC is leading.

  

[Bigandy]

31 minutes ago, costarg said:

I'm not seeing it.  Lets count.  I suggest we go with 3+ presences for CANMNT in "realish" games.

• TFC has 3 guys that contributed the past few years. (Osorio, Fraser and Henry)
• VWC: 3, with 2 strong contributers (Davies, Adekubgbe, Cornelius, do we add Tiebert?)
• CFM has 4. (Piette, Kone, Crepeau & ZBG)

If we discuss guys that are likely to contribute, like Nelson, JMR, Kerr… we need to add Choiniere, Sirois, Saliba, Rea, Zouhir, Breza….

I still don't see where TFC is leading.

  

You can make a case for or against cornlius (1 WCQ match) and ZBG (2 WCQ). Basically all 3 teams are roughly on par with each other for the count. 

If youre looking at prospects:

TFC: 
corbeanu, JMR, nelson, franklin, pearlman, stefanovic, shaf, petrasso, Akinola, Kerr,  Plus outsiders like okello, priso, thompson,  

=9 + 3

Montreal: Choiniere, sirious, saliba, zouhir, rea, Plus outsiders breza, vilsaint 
5+2

Whitecaps: Ahmed, Any more?  Plus outsiders like Yao, Johnston, Coupland 
=1 + 3 

TFC is clearly producing more and higher quality prospects. 

So back to the original point where you claimed that it was obvious that TFC is behind the curve. I am all for a debate that TFC is or is not the best producer as I could be persuaded wither way. BUT, I cannot understand how you can say that Toronto is behind the curve when they are producing more prospects with conceivably higher ceilings, while also roughly matching whitecaps and montreal with the contributions to the WC squad. Where are they behind the curve given the players.  

[RS]

50 minutes ago, costarg said:

• TFC has 3 guys that contributed the past few years. (Osorio, Fraser and Henry)
• VWC: 3, with 2 strong contributers (Davies, Adekubgbe, Cornelius, do we add Tiebert?)
• CFM has 4. (Piette, Kone, Crepeau & ZBG)

If you're counting Piette for Montreal then you have to count Laryea for Toronto, IMO. Also not sure why Cornelius counts towards Vancouver when he played for CANMNT prior to joining the Whitecaps.

None of the three teams is obviously ahead or behind in this area.

[costarg]

29 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

You can make a case for or against cornlius (1 WCQ match) and ZBG (2 WCQ). Basically all 3 teams are roughly on par with each other for the count. 

If youre looking at prospects:

TFC: 
corbeanu, JMR, nelson, franklin, pearlman, stefanovic, shaf, petrasso, Akinola, Kerr,  Plus outsiders like okello, priso, thompson,  

=9 + 3

Montreal: Choiniere, sirious, saliba, zouhir, rea, Plus outsiders breza, vilsaint 
5+2

Whitecaps: Ahmed, Any more?  Plus outsiders like Yao, Johnston, Coupland 
=1 + 3 

TFC is clearly producing more and higher quality prospects. 

So back to the original point where you claimed that it was obvious that TFC is behind the curve. I am all for a debate that TFC is or is not the best producer as I could be persuaded wither way. BUT, I cannot understand how you can say that Toronto is behind the curve when they are producing more prospects with conceivably higher ceilings, while also roughly matching whitecaps and montreal with the contributions to the WC squad. Where are they behind the curve given the players.  

If you take Cornelius and ZBG out, you need to remove Fraser as well.  So that makes it:

TFC = 2 - VWC=2 - CFM = 3

Your finger is on the scale dude.... if you're counting Akinola, Kerr.... as top prospects you can add Pantemis, Waterman....  we're just going back and forth.

If we want to talk about ceilings, the conversation starts and ends with Davies and Kone.  The rest is all just hypothetical forecasting.  We'll have to come back here in 3 years to add it all up, and given the names above, I'm very comfortable with my statement.  TFC has the largest yard with the most cash and has produced less quantity and quality.

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by costarg