Lukas MacNaughton

[Bison44]

I was waiting for the handball thing..hahaha.  Tough break, no time to react.  As for the cross, it splits the CBs and lands on the head of the america player, not much he could have done there, he had good coverage, except be 3 inches taller???  He is still getting starts, in important games for a good team, good for him.  Kind of like StClair, is he playing really good....mehhhh, but he is still starting on a good team, playing big games and doing enough to win.  In the long run these kinds of pressure cooker games will help these CDN guys when we play Hon, or jamaica etc.  

As for TFC, who knows what the hell is going on there....can everyone in that organization be toxic??  Seems like they want to send the whole team away and start from scratch.  McNaughton could have been a useful piece of a CB rotation at TFC but it looks like he and Nashville are a good fit.  

[Shway]

22 minutes ago, RS said:

an issue for young Canadians at that club (TFC gives a ton of minutes to young Canadians, willingly or not).

we're mad when we hoard them, and then we're mad when we trade/sell them.

I'm no TFC apologist like my man RS lol, but when we look at the bigger picture TFC signed LMac from the CPL and gave him minutes. Shipped him out to greener pastures. Signed Luca, gave him minutes and shipped him out to greener pastures. Jakey signed and shipped to greener pastures. Nelson sign and shipped to greener pastures.

As a TFC fan it sucks, but from a CMNT fan perspective they've been doing the right things.

[Aird25]

8 minutes ago, Shway said:

we're mad when we hoard them, and then we're mad when we trade/sell them.

I'm no TFC apologist like my man RS lol, but when we look at the bigger picture TFC signed LMac from the CPL and gave him minutes. Shipped him out to greener pastures. Signed Luca, gave him minutes and shipped him out to greener pastures. Jakey signed and shipped to greener pastures. Nelson sign and shipped to greener pastures.

As a TFC fan it sucks, but from a CMNT fan perspective they've been doing the right things.

I don't know that they shipped them out to greener pastures, or if the players just earned roles at their new clubs

[Shway]

3 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I don't know that they shipped them out to greener pastures, or if the players just earned roles at their new clubs

They did ship them out because they weren't waived. They were traded to teams who were interested/saw value in them from their minutes with TFC.

[Aird25]

2 minutes ago, Shway said:

They did ship them out because they weren't waived. They were traded to teams who were interested/saw value in them from their minutes with TFC.

Yeah, Nashville saw the $200k value in the deal, and they also got a reliable starter in the mix.

[RS]

45 minutes ago, Shway said:

I'm no TFC apologist like my man RS lol

You're stealing other people's narratives here.

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Yeah, but CJ Sapong has scored 1 goal for them

Yeah but that could be the goal that keeps them from getting relegated.  

[Aird25]

6 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yeah but that could be the goal that keeps them from getting relegated.  

Good point. MLSE needs to avoid relegation at all costs.

[VinceA]

TFC gives lots of minutes to their youngsters, but their development plan seems to suck as it doesn't feel like any of these guys are getting any better, with the exception of Kobe Franklin.

[RS]

2 minutes ago, VinceA said:

TFC gives lots of minutes to their youngsters, but their development plan seems to suck as it doesn't feel like any of these guys are getting any better, with the exception of Kobe Franklin.

That's the real problem, although I'd say Deandre Kerr has improved this season as well. 

[Corazon]

3 hours ago, Shway said:

we're mad when we hoard them, and then we're mad when we trade/sell them.

I'm no TFC apologist like my man RS lol, but when we look at the bigger picture TFC signed LMac from the CPL and gave him minutes. Shipped him out to greener pastures. Signed Luca, gave him minutes and shipped him out to greener pastures. Jakey signed and shipped to greener pastures. Nelson sign and shipped to greener pastures.

As a TFC fan it sucks, but from a CMNT fan perspective they've been doing the right things.

It had to be said as I was about to type something similar up as well.  There were 28 other MLS teams that could have signed MacNaughton as a domestic player out of Pacific FC but Toronto is the team that gave him that opportunity.  Nashville likely isn't trading for MacNaughton based on his play with Pacific.

[Bison44]

McNaughton would have counted as a domestic league wide?? Maybe Nashville wouldnt have singned him for damn near free from Pacific before, but maybe some of the rest of the MLS teams are thinking differently now seeing McNaughton and Farsi turned out.  

[RS]

8 hours ago, Bison44 said:

McNaughton would have counted as a domestic league wide?? Maybe Nashville wouldnt have singned him for damn near free from Pacific before, but maybe some of the rest of the MLS teams are thinking differently now seeing McNaughton and Farsi turned out.  

He was born in the US.

[costarg]

17 hours ago, Shway said:

As a TFC fan it sucks, but from a CMNT fan perspective they've been doing the right things.

Doing the right thing is an isolated statement and scenario, It just ended up that way for Lukas and some of the other guys, but there was no plan.  There are 10 failures for every Lukas.

 

[canuckgbp]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

Doing the right thing is an isolated statement and scenario, It just ended up that way for Lukas and some of the other guys, but there was no plan.  There are 10 failures for every Lukas.

 

Isn’t this common around the world? Tons of guys miss and fail to take the next step? All they ever have is potential until they age out? 
 

 

[costarg]

44 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

Isn’t this common around the world? Tons of guys miss and fail to take the next step? All they ever have is potential until they age out? 

I feel MLS and TFC in particular are kinda special and an outlier in this case.  Many teams (managers) have a must win now mentality, while many others have a develop and make a profit as their philosophy and baseline.  Many and most teams manage to do both.  Even the giants are playing teenagers.  Here is where TFC failed.  They hoarded young guys for years and never played them.  I can't even begin to list the amount of guys they wasted development wise.  A young player NEEDS to play from 17-21.  You cannot ride the bench and play 20 minutes a month while training with pros and expect to develop.  It takes more than that.  The culture at TFC did not encourage that.  Even the losing teams with nothing to play for didn't play the kids and rolled out the same aging 11 match after match. 

That approach and tunnel vision is not common "around the world", any pro organization would've made the most of a losing season, not keep the status quo. 

Edit: and please stop with this "but it's up to the player to prove himself and take that spot" bullshit.  Paul freakin Pogba at his teenage peak would not have pried the starting spot from Bradley, let alone Fraser, Okello, Priso, JMR, etc....

Edited August 10, 2023 by costarg

[Shway]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

Doing the right thing is an isolated statement and scenario, It just ended up that way for Lukas and some of the other guys, but there was no plan.  There are 10 failures for every Lukas.

 

It's subjective you're right. But I'll disagree with the other 10:1 ratio. 
Look at this list of Canadian TFC players over the past 3 years below. Who has TFC "failed" by not giving them a substantial amount of opportunities?

Akinola, Antonoglou, Chung, Dunn, Franklin, Fraser, Henry, Kaye, Kerr, Laryea, MacNaughton, Marshall-Rutty, Mbongue, Okello, Osorio, Nelson, Peruzza, Petrasso, Priso, Romeo, Shaffelburg, Singh.

- All but 3 are homegrown signings (Chung, MacNaughton, Laryea)
- 6 academy signings were either traded or loaned to another MLS team.
- 3 academy signings have been loaned out to CPL teams.
- 10 players have been called up to the CMNT squad, of those 8 are academy signings.
- The only person I can look at from this list and say "TFC failed them" by not giving them substantial opportunities to play as they deserved it is Fraser.
 

So TFC does great at giving young or old Canadian players professional opportunities, what they fail at is integrating them into their squad. This is due to them being a big market team, requiring big names which hinders a lot of the integration issues on the young players. 

As a CMNT fan, they do the best job by farrrrrrrr in regard to the development of national team players. No other club comes remotely close. (somebody challenge me on this please)
As a TFC fan, I hate that guys get traded due to an overall lack of identity and constantly making win-now decisions that don't lead to win-now teams.

[Shway]

36 minutes ago, costarg said:

I feel MLS and TFC in particular are kinda special and an outlier in this case.  Many teams (managers) have a must win now mentality, while many others have a develop and make a profit as their philosophy and baseline.  Many and most teams manage to do both.  Even the giants are playing teenagers.  Here is where TFC failed.  They hoarded young guys for years and never played them.  I can't even begin to list the amount of guys they wasted development wise.  A young player NEEDS to play from 17-21.  You cannot ride the bench and play 20 minutes a month while training with pros and expect to develop.  It takes more than that.  The culture at TFC did not encourage that.  Even the losing teams with nothing to play for didn't play the kids and rolled out the same aging 11 match after match. 

That approach and tunnel vision is not common "around the world", any pro organization would've made the most of a losing season, not keep the status quo. 

Edit: and please stop with this "but it's up to the player to prove himself and take that spot" bullshit.  Paul freakin Pogba at his teenage peak would not have pried the starting spot from Bradley, let alone Fraser, Okello, Priso, JMR, etc....

You make great points. I'm with you, but I don't think you're looking at the overall picture. Look at Real Madrid....they have Caminvinga playing LB just to get him on the field because Modric, and Kroos still want to play. 

Within the past two seasons, Bradley most definitely needed to drop his minutes substantially. But even then the middle had Osorio, Delgado, Pozuelo, and Priso. Priso took the minutes that Fraser could've got because he was showing more promise at the time. Unfortunately, he got injured when he was staking his claim. Okello got sevvvveeeraaal chances to "show-out" but never did. JMR as much as we didn't want to admit it was over-hyped and not ready for the level...now he's 19 with 40+ apps and is starting to show the promise and hype.

I'm not saying TFC are perfect, but I don't think they have failed from the development standpoint as some guys are showing that they just weren't cut out for this level or league...like Peruzza, Romeo, and Chung. Sometimes a change of scenery is required to elevate one's game - like Shaffelburg.

[canuckgbp]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

I feel MLS and TFC in particular are kinda special and an outlier in this case.  Many teams (managers) have a must win now mentality, while many others have a develop and make a profit as their philosophy and baseline.  Many and most teams manage to do both.  Even the giants are playing teenagers.  Here is where TFC failed.  They hoarded young guys for years and never played them.  I can't even begin to list the amount of guys they wasted development wise.  A young player NEEDS to play from 17-21.  You cannot ride the bench and play 20 minutes a month while training with pros and expect to develop.  It takes more than that.  The culture at TFC did not encourage that.  Even the losing teams with nothing to play for didn't play the kids and rolled out the same aging 11 match after match. 

That approach and tunnel vision is not common "around the world", any pro organization would've made the most of a losing season, not keep the status quo. 

Edit: and please stop with this "but it's up to the player to prove himself and take that spot" bullshit.  Paul freakin Pogba at his teenage peak would not have pried the starting spot from Bradley, let alone Fraser, Okello, Priso, JMR, etc....

But TFC is playing teenagers and young players? JMR, Kerr and Thompson have been given decent minutes. (Granted sometimes out of position but that is not unique to TFC with young players)

Akinola and Perruzza have had numerous opportunities to figure it out (Especially the former. Perruzza is plain just not good enough for this level)

Mbongue and Antonoglou haven't broken in yet but have seen the field several of times. 

Franklin is obviously the standout and has been rewarded with consistent minutes. 

Other players like Nelson, Shaff, Dunn, Priso and Fraser were sold. Players like Okello were never good enough. 

Stefanovic (17) and Pearlman (18) have made debuts and the future looks bright. 

I agree with you if we look back earlier, especially at the end of Vanney's tenure, where old American's were being rewarded with minutes despite poor form. They seemed have moved on from that though and have given younger players more opportunities. 

Out of all the Canadian teams, to me TFC is leading the way (correct me if I am wrong)

There seems to be a general sentiment on this board where we hype of young players that all they have is potential. (Myself included).

Truth is most players never make it. I am not sure what the rate of academy dropouts is, or how many reach or exceed the level where they were developed but I assume it is low. Sometimes the player is just not good enough. It simply isn't just play the young players because they are young. Or if we only played them more, they would develop. 

With TFC in particular, I think the JMR insane evaluation is an example of shooting themselves in the foot. He seems to be on an upward trajectory to me. That target wasn't wise. 

I feel they also need to do a better job of moving players on quicker, whether that is through transfer or a loan. 

 

 

 

[RS]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

It's subjective you're right. But I'll disagree with the other 10:1 ratio. 
Look at this list of Canadian TFC players over the past 3 years below. Who has TFC "failed" by not giving them a substantial amount of opportunities?

Akinola, Antonoglou, Chung, Dunn, Franklin, Fraser, Henry, Kaye, Kerr, Laryea, MacNaughton, Marshall-Rutty, Mbongue, Okello, Osorio, Nelson, Peruzza, Petrasso, Priso, Romeo, Shaffelburg, Singh.

- All but 3 are homegrown signings (Chung, MacNaughton, Laryea)
- 6 academy signings were either traded or loaned to another MLS team.
- 3 academy signings have been loaned out to CPL teams.
- 10 players have been called up to the CMNT squad, of those 8 are academy signings.
- The only person I can look at from this list and say "TFC failed them" by not giving them substantial opportunities to play as they deserved it is Fraser.
 

So TFC does great at giving young or old Canadian players professional opportunities, what they fail at is integrating them into their squad. This is due to them being a big market team, requiring big names which hinders a lot of the integration issues on the young players. 

As a CMNT fan, they do the best job by farrrrrrrr in regard to the development of national team players. No other club comes remotely close. (somebody challenge me on this please)
As a TFC fan, I hate that guys get traded due to an overall lack of identity and constantly making win-now decisions that don't lead to win-now teams.

1 hour ago, Shway said:

You make great points. I'm with you, but I don't think you're looking at the overall picture. Look at Real Madrid....they have Caminvinga playing LB just to get him on the field because Modric, and Kroos still want to play. 

Within the past two seasons, Bradley most definitely needed to drop his minutes substantially. But even then the middle had Osorio, Delgado, Pozuelo, and Priso. Priso took the minutes that Fraser could've got because he was showing more promise at the time. Unfortunately, he got injured when he was staking his claim. Okello got sevvvveeeraaal chances to "show-out" but never did. JMR as much as we didn't want to admit it was over-hyped and not ready for the level...now he's 19 with 40+ apps and is starting to show the promise and hype.

I'm not saying TFC are perfect, but I don't think they have failed from the development standpoint as some guys are showing that they just weren't cut out for this level or league...like Peruzza, Romeo, and Chung. Sometimes a change of scenery is required to elevate one's game - like Shaffelburg.

Careful with all these facts, you may take my title as the apologist.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, canuckgbp said:

I agree with you if we look back earlier, especially at the end of Vanney's tenure, where old American's were being rewarded with minutes despite poor form. They seemed have moved on from that though and have given younger players more opportunities. 

Indeed, if we reset and use the last 12 months to gauge, it's more balanced.  I was talking about the past 10 years. 

Even there though, would the young guys have gotten these opportunities if it wasn't for all the injuries?  We will never know.....

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by costarg

[costarg]

1 hour ago, canuckgbp said:

Out of all the Canadian teams, to me TFC is leading the way (correct me if I am wrong)

There seems to be a general sentiment on this board where we hype of young players that all they have is potential. (Myself included).

Truth is most players never make it. I am not sure what the rate of academy dropouts is, or how many reach or exceed the level where they were developed but I assume it is low. Sometimes the player is just not good enough. It simply isn't just play the young players because they are young. Or if we only played them more, they would develop. 

Leading the way... how so?  By revenue?  By developing?  By minutes?  or by % of population and opportunities?  Whats the date range we're looking at?  Are we only counting success stories?  There are several ways to look at this, and they can all give us different answers.  I will say this: I don't feel TFC is leading anything at the moment just because they offloaded players that they weren't willing to play.  TFC would've been a better team today if they had developed and kept some of these guys instead of playing Delgado and all the other old Americans.

Several of the players that didn't make it, specifically didn't make it because they had no development or plan from 17-21.  Blaming the players for not being good enough is not fair or realistic.  TFC was tougher on kids than Barcelona is.

[Aird25]

50 minutes ago, costarg said:

Leading the way... how so? 

In terms of pull for starters. It's a desirable destination for a player even though very few seem to ever find a long career there. Signing with Toronto, even if quickly discarded, seems to lead to a professional contract elsewhere much of the time. The same can't be said for most Canadian clubs

[Obinna]

Are TFC leaders in Canadian development because of their program is excellent or is it because they are in the player rich GTA? Feels like the latter, but regardless I think it's clear that TFC do "export" the most players in Canadian club football.

[canuckgbp]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Leading the way... how so?  By revenue?  By developing?  By minutes?  or by % of population and opportunities?  Whats the date range we're looking at?  Are we only counting success stories?  There are several ways to look at this, and they can all give us different answers.  I will say this: I don't feel TFC is leading anything at the moment just because they offloaded players that they weren't willing to play.  TFC would've been a better team today if they had developed and kept some of these guys instead of playing Delgado and all the other old Americans.

Several of the players that didn't make it, specifically didn't make it because they had no development or plan from 17-21.  Blaming the players for not being good enough is not fair or realistic.  TFC was tougher on kids than Barcelona is.

Canadian senior players developed, first team debuts and minutes, MLS minutes. Money invested in the academy. 

From rough count they have had 15 academy graduates have minutes with the senior men's national team. 16 if you include Osorio (who is not technically grad but started young). 

So if certain players wish to move on to Europe (Nelson, Fraser, Dunn, etc) TFC get dinged for offloading players? They didn't have Shaff in their players, moved him and he is doing well. Isn't that a positive thing? 

I don't think they should have moved Priso, but he isn't exactly lighting it up Colorado. (Still early tho). Will TFC be blamed far into the future if Priso can't crack that 11? 

I agree with you with someone like Okello. Either he should have been sold or went out of loan more to continue development. Thing is, it appears he just isn't good. 

Just because you give first team minutes time to young players, is no guarantee they will develop into anything approaching that level. 

Should TFC field a team of mostly young players? Regardless of their ability? Prob not. Incorporating a couple throughout the year makes more sense, 

If we look at the current regime as it is, they have been playing young players. Many supporters will tell you too many young players. (As there is no experienced core to guide them). Someone like Akinola has been given chance after chance. So has does that line up with everything? 

With regards to your Barcelona comment, I don't even know how to quantify that. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by canuckgbp