Lukas MacNaughton

[Aird25]

In addition to reaching the final, he is a regular on a playoff bound team and the stingiest defense in the league. I'm sure his stock will have been raised from his time at Toronto, who were in shambles defensively. I don't think we know where he stands in the coaches eyes at this point

[MauditYvon]

Thing is, we don’t have any real centerback playing in a big club. Top four at the moment is probably Vitoria, Miller, Cornelius and Kennedy.
 

After that, you have a mix of guys who are decent but never really break it : Waterman, Bombito, Heibert, MacNaughton, Zator, McGraw damn even Camacho. 
 

He could get a call up, but he’d be the 5th or 6th CB. 

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That's a big list ahead of LM - but you could make a case for them all. 

At the same time you could do the reverse for most of the names. I can find arguments that LM is ahead of Heibert, Bombito, Zator, Waterman and even McGraw. Each of these guys have single-digit caps and all besides Bombito are basically the same age and stage in their careers. They are all basically interchangable in my eyes. None are standouts and all are servicable. 

Bombito is the odd ball, very young but lacks experience and raw so prone to errors. 

Waterman, heibert, zator and LM are all guys i dont expect to ever seriously contribute to CMNT. Heibert, zator and waterman are more versatile and appear to suit CMNT better than LM. They are all more recent call ups which is why I put them above LM. Realistically we play a guy like kennedy out of position at RCB before calling up any of those guys.  

Bombito is younger with a higher ceiling. Hes athletic and tall which is something we severly lack and hes versatile playing outside CB, wingback and CDM. Assuming he continues his trajectory, hes a guy who can contribute meaningful minutes. 

ZMG may not be amazing but his skill set is exactly what we need for the post vitoria era. He commands central CB and is great at dealing with aerially balls. He helps cover some of our squads weaknesses with his strengths. 

If we are just looking at what we expect from herdman, is there a case to be made the LM is ahead of any of those guys? He has not once made a squad above any of the other guys when they were available. Could he improve enough that he gets a call? Sure, but I dont see any reason to expect that based on all of the most recent squad selections.

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

In addition to reaching the final, he is a regular on a playoff bound team and the stingiest defense in the league. I'm sure his stock will have been raised from his time at Toronto, who were in shambles defensively. I don't think we know where he stands in the coaches eyes at this point

Very good point. I bet they are very happy with his run in the Leagues Cup right now. That's going to work in his favour to some degree, you'd think. And like you said - Nashville are going to qualify for MLS Cup playoffs. More high level games for the coaching staff to observe.

Things could definitely come together for him and result in a call for the Nations League QF. Montreal (Waterman) and McGraw (Portland) could be out-of-season by that point - so if you're Herdman to you go with LM instead if he's fresh off playing in the MLS Cup playoffs?

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

He's already a Canada player, but if you mean you don't ever see him being a starter for our best team I could see where you are coming from.

That said, we could do worse than a guy who will start for Nashville in the Leagues Cup final. I am not penciling him into our starting 11, but it feels like he should earn a few more caps this cycle. MacNaughton, Zator, Waterman and McGraw are the right-footed CB options behind Vitoria and one could argue that MacNaughton should be top of that list.

But speaking of CanPL bred CBs, I wonder if there's still time for Didic to make a move to MLS. He's regarded as one of the top players in the league and he's spent time in MLS before with SKC. Like all these other guys he's in his prime and moving to MLS would/should put him right in the mix when we see how Waterman and MacNaughton have adapted and even thrived in MLS.

He’s a Canada player in the same way that Raheem Edwards is. In other words he’s just a domestic call up. 
 

With all due respect: throwing out his teams recent success as justification as to why he should be called makes no sense. 
 

If MacNaughton is in our best 23 we’re in big trouble. Luckily he’s not and he’s not in the eyes of the coaching staff either. 

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Waterman, heibert, zator and LM are all guys i dont expect to ever seriously contribute to CMNT. Heibert, zator and waterman are more versatile and appear to suit CMNT better than LM. They are all more recent call ups which is why I put them above LM. Realistically we play a guy like kennedy out of position at RCB before calling up any of those guys.  

On the grounds of versatility, or are you thinking about playing style? His lack of speed could be exposed at the international level, but he's very composed on the ball and part of a stauch defensive unit which can only help his communication and confidence on the defensive end. 

[kacbru]

1 hour ago, Ruffian said:

The only people I would have ahead of him for sure are Vitoria, Miller and AJ. That is it. Lukas is the starting CB for a team that is, right now, better than all of those other player's teams.

If we chose players based on the quality of their team, we should never see another TFC player on the CMNT again.  The quality of the team doesn't matter so much.  For example, is Miller all of a sudden a better CB because Messi joined Miami and they will rocket up the standings?  He's still the same guy, with the same strengths and weaknesses.  Or is MacNaughton faster, or more positionally aware, or have better ball skills because he moved from TFC to Nashville?  If Nashville goes on a losing streak, does that make him a worse player?  Did Laryea become a worse player because he moved to TFC?

I'm not saying the team environment doesn't matter, but I think it is way overblown, in part by the transfer hype train.

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

On the grounds of versatility, or are you thinking about playing style? His lack of speed could be exposed at the international level, but he's very composed on the ball and part of a stauch defensive unit which can only help his communication and confidence on the defensive end. 

LM has to be a central CB in a back 3 IMO. He lacks mobility and speed to play outside CB. He also performs much better in low blocks than a pressing team. The same can be said about Vitoria and ZMG and we get exposed regularly for this. However, Id say vitoria and ZMG read the game better, lead and organize the entire backline better and are much much better at aerially balls. 

So what exactly does LM bring to that Central CB role that is an improvement on vitoria, ZMG or even kennedy? I just dont see him having a complimentary skill set thats valuable enough that he leap frogs other players who do offer those complimentary skills. 

Waterman, zator and heibert all have a similar problem but the versatility helps them become a more attractive option for a call up. 

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, kacbru said:

If we chose players based on the quality of their team, we should never see another TFC player on the CMNT again.  The quality of the team doesn't matter so much.  For example, is Miller all of a sudden a better CB because Messi joined Miami and they will rocket up the standings?  He's still the same guy, with the same strengths and weaknesses.  Or is MacNaughton faster, or more positionally aware, or have better ball skills because he moved from TFC to Nashville?  If Nashville goes on a losing streak, does that make him a worse player?  Did Laryea become a worse player because he moved to TFC?

I'm not saying the team environment doesn't matter, but I think it is way overblown, in part by the transfer hype train.

100% agree. LM "improved" overnight because he has a higher quality CB partner and plays a lower block with more CDM coverage in front of him.  Im sure hes improved as a player as well, but the easiest improvement was because of the system and not him specifically.  

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

He’s a Canada player in the same way that Raheem Edwards is. In other words he’s just a domestic call up. 

Absolutely. At the end of the day we are discussing the tail end of the roster. Most of these guys will have single-digit caps by the time the WC comes.

However, with Vitoria expected to be phased out (at least by us), we're going to need a right-footed CB. That's why the topic is interesting to me. Sure, these guys are domestic call ups for now, but someone is going to have to emerge to replace Vitoria. There's a possibility it's someone not currently in the pool or even on our radar, but short of that it's going to be one of the names we are throwing around.

My money is on Bombito but who knows how it will play out. 

 

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

LM has to be a central CB in a back 3 IMO. He lacks mobility and speed to play outside CB. He also performs much better in low blocks than a pressing team. The same can be said about Vitoria and ZMG and we get exposed regularly for this. However, Id say vitoria and ZMG read the game better, lead and organize the entire backline better and are much much better at aerially balls. 

So what exactly does LM bring to that Central CB role that is an improvement on vitoria, ZMG or even kennedy? I just dont see him having a complimentary skill set thats valuable enough that he leap frogs other players who do offer those complimentary skills. 

Waterman, zator and heibert all have a similar problem but the versatility helps them become a more attractive option for a call up. 

Agree with your post - but to answer your questoin in bold I would say that LM is more composed on the ball than ZMG and (maybe) Kennedy as well. I have seen some good stuff on the ball from Kennedy, but against the USA he has struggled on the ball - twice.

Kennedy for me is a superior player though, so consider my Kennedy point to be moot.

And there's nothing LM does better than Vitoria imo.

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, kacbru said:

If we chose players based on the quality of their team, we should never see another TFC player on the CMNT again.  The quality of the team doesn't matter so much.  For example, is Miller all of a sudden a better CB because Messi joined Miami and they will rocket up the standings?  He's still the same guy, with the same strengths and weaknesses.  Or is MacNaughton faster, or more positionally aware, or have better ball skills because he moved from TFC to Nashville?  If Nashville goes on a losing streak, does that make him a worse player?  Did Laryea become a worse player because he moved to TFC?

I'm not saying the team environment doesn't matter, but I think it is way overblown, in part by the transfer hype train.

I think he's probably more confident playing with Messi and confidence makes for a better player. 

This is ditto for MacNaughton at Nashville. Going from a losing team to a winning team doesn't change your baseline skills much in the short term, but surely it ups your confidence which is important. 

[Aird25]

30 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

He has not once made a squad above any of the other guys when they were available.

Wasn't the the spare player brought to the World Cup?

[Shway]

He played 20 or so minutes in the Bahrain game and to me looked like one of the best defenders in that cameo.

What I find interesting about this conversation is guys are acting like we have a bunch of tier 1 center backs, that are playing at elite levels vs elite competition. A lot of our CB's are playing against the same attacks (6 out of 10)

Here's what I think our CB depth chart looks likes

Tier 1: Vitoria (aging but not soo like fine wine)
Tier 2: Miller, Corneilius
Tier 3: Kennedy (has dropped), McGraw, Bombito, 
Tier 4: Zator, MacNaughton, Waterman, Heibert 

Yes Kennedy has his speed, but he didn't look good at this past GC. And has dropped a level at the club game. 
The way I see it, anyone from 3-4 can move up or down based on how they are doing with their respective seasons/team. So to think that Lukas can't move into the 4-6 depth spot is crazy to me. The tier 3-4 have their strengths and have their weaknesses. 

I just simply can't write him off because he's playing in a team that is "defensively sound."  

 

[jonovision]

The fact that anyone feels they could definitively rank any of this mishmash of central defenders is astonishing to me. Unless you include Alistair Johnston as CB, or think Vitoria has more than few months of a future with the NT, each and every one of them is a few months of hot form away from the top of the list. We all have our favourites (personally I'd like to see a lot more of Cornelius and less of Kennedy) but let's be real here.

[dyslexic nam]

I just wish the guys on those CB lists were 20-22 year olds.  I would feel a lot better about where we are at if they were young guys playing at this level with room to develop further vs largely the finished what-you-see-is-what-you-get product.  Depth is good bet damn we need a couple of defensive studs to emerge.  

[Dominic94]

Reality is we have very good depth, 0 standouts but a lot of capable bench level guys. 
 

puns aside there’s s drop after Miller, and another after Kennedy and McGraw… that being said the floor isn’t high. Matter of time till a prospect walks in.

[Bigandy]

16 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Wasn't the the spare player brought to the World Cup?

Yes he was but not at the expense of any of our other CB options.  I'm just saying that hes never made a squad when mcgraw, bombito, zator etc were available. Therefore he hasnt ever beat out any of our current defenders. 

16 hours ago, Shway said:

He played 20 or so minutes in the Bahrain game and to me looked like one of the best defenders in that cameo.

What I find interesting about this conversation is guys are acting like we have a bunch of tier 1 center backs, that are playing at elite levels vs elite competition. A lot of our CB's are playing against the same attacks (6 out of 10)

Here's what I think our CB depth chart looks likes

Tier 1: Vitoria (aging but not soo like fine wine)
Tier 2: Miller, Corneilius
Tier 3: Kennedy (has dropped), McGraw, Bombito, 
Tier 4: Zator, MacNaughton, Waterman, Heibert 

Yes Kennedy has his speed, but he didn't look good at this past GC. And has dropped a level at the club game. 
The way I see it, anyone from 3-4 can move up or down based on how they are doing with their respective seasons/team. So to think that Lukas can't move into the 4-6 depth spot is crazy to me. The tier 3-4 have their strengths and have their weaknesses. 

I just simply can't write him off because he's playing in a team that is "defensively sound."  

 

He looked much much better than waterman IMO but tiring legs against a terrible opposition is a tough measuring stick.

youve laid out the tier list extremely well and can arguably add AJ to the list. Thats 7 guys tier 3 and above. My guess is we take 5 CB's for a 23 man roster. LM will have to jump 3-5 spots and that will be a tough ask. 

I dont think anyone is writing him off for playing in a team thats defensively sound. My point is that hes improved within a system that is different from the CMNT. His skillset isnt ideal for our system. In order to overcome this, he will have to be substantially better than the options ahead of him.

Take Henry for example, he may not have been one of our best 23 players in qualifying but his skill set/style was extremely valuable because it filled the gap of what we didnt have (after vitoria). LM doesnt have the same luxury (to the same extent) of having a skillset we lack. ZMG does. Therefore its easier for one to be selected over the other. 

[Bigandy]

15 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I just wish the guys on those CB lists were 20-22 year olds.  I would feel a lot better about where we are at if they were young guys playing at this level with room to develop further vs largely the finished what-you-see-is-what-you-get product.  Depth is good bet damn we need a couple of defensive studs to emerge.  

Stefanovic, pearlman, knight lebel and chisholm(maybe) all seem to be having some breakout years. In a year or 2 they could become possible options. 

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Stefanovic, pearlman, knight lebel and chisholm(maybe) all seem to be having some breakout years. In a year or 2 they could become possible options. 

Regardless of what is going on with the rest of our positions, this is my biggest hope.  I don’t see any of our current CB pool making a quantum step up in quality.  And while MLS journeymen are fine for squad depth we clearly need to improve in defence if we want to take the next step and be able to compete on the global stage.  At the risk of looking for the next messiah, I think the only way that happens is through a couple of young prospects maturing into top calibre players or uncovering some mystery dual national (pretty unlikely).  

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Regardless of what is going on with the rest of our positions, this is my biggest hope.  I don’t see any of our current CB pool making a quantum step up in quality.  And while MLS journeymen are fine for squad depth we clearly need to improve in defence if we want to take the next step and be able to compete on the global stage.  At the risk of looking for the next messiah, I think the only way that happens is through a couple of young prospects maturing into top calibre players or uncovering some mystery dual national (pretty unlikely).  

I mean, we seem to find dual nationals out of no where semi regularly ish.  Its unlikely but maybe. 

My hope is Bombito can become a tier 2 CB. stefanovic and LDF become tier 1 and then we have some prospects plus the MLS journeyman. Its all a BIG if but in 4 years we could possibly have LDF and Stefanovic playing prem and anchoring our back line. 

[narduch]

We really do like to get way ahead of ourselves on this site.

Knight-Lebel still gasnt gotten off the bench.

Chisholm hasn't even made an appearance for Honover 96 II yet.

Stefanovic probably goes back to TFC II once they get their shit together.

Another example is Bombito. Still fighting for a starting spot at Colorado 

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

We really do like to get way ahead of ourselves on this site.

Knight-Lebel still gasnt gotten off the bench.

Chisholm hasn't even made an appearance for Honover 96 II yet.

Stefanovic probably goes back to TFC II once they get their shit together.

Another example is Bombito. Still fighting for a starting spot at Colorado 

How so? 

knight lebel is currently having a breakout year by being on the bench. Obviously hes still young and his development is unknown but getting on the bench is clearly a step up from last year when he wasnt on the bench. Surely hes one of our top CB prospects.

Chisholm - 100% agree. Ive been extremely critical of him playing for CMNT anytime soon but worth a mention because of his agents hype on him? Maybe? Probably not? 

Stefanovic is having a breakout year and looks to be something special. Sure there is tons of development still to do but hes been our best home grown CB prospect in years and years. 

Bombito has some great base characteristics and is currently a tier 3ish CB. Theres a very good chance he could become a miller type player for us. Hes our only realistic CB option currently that is youngish. I doubt a LM or waterman develop leaps and bounds but bombito could easily get to the next level. 

This isnt even including LDF. 

No one is saying these guys are the finished articles yet but when have we ever had this many prospects at this level? I dont think acknowledging our pipeline and their current trends is getting ahead of ourselves. 

[Aird25]

55 minutes ago, narduch said:

We really do like to get way ahead of ourselves on this site.

I can't believe people are able to watch all of these players regularly enough to determine which ones have intangible attributes that the other options don't possess, who doesn't, and who will develop them. I couldn't possibly speak with confidence on some of these players mentioned. 

[Ruffian]

11 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I can't believe people are able to watch all of these players regularly enough to determine which ones have intangible attributes that the other options don't possess, who doesn't, and who will develop them. I couldn't possibly speak with confidence on some of these players mentioned. 

The world's biggest club's scouting departments have trouble doing that too and usually just end up buying players that have performed well in other competitive leagues.