Luca Koleosho

[Obinna]

Just now, InglewoodJack said:

Different player and situation for sure, but Smith's trajectory is starting to mirror Sam Piette's. Piette went to Dusseldorf at 17, playing in Spanish 5th tier by 21, moved around the lower leagues for a bit, and was at IMFC by 22. Justin Smith is a few years ahead of him, but Piette went Metz > Dusseldorf > A Coruna B > Spanish 4th div > Montreal. Smith went PSG > Nice > Nice II > Quveilly > Quevilly 2 (5th tier) > ???

That's a good way to put it. And if Smith ends up being a Piette level player (solid MLS guy, let's say), that's actually good for our future midfield group. It's not "Kone" level, but hopefully someone who could step in and do a job. 

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That's a good way to put it. And if Smith ends up being a Piette level player (solid MLS guy, let's say), that's actually good for our future midfield group. It's not "Kone" level, but hopefully someone who could step in and do a job. 

I'm hoping that by next world cup, players at Piette's level aren't able to cut it for the national team (love sam), but if the worst case scenario is you have a solid midfielder who is able to consistently get MLS contracts, that's a good depth piece, but more than that, any Canadian who can start and play in the MLS is a good thing for us. Hell, if he maxes out at the Tyler Pasher level, that's not a complete tragedy.

[Floortom]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I'm hoping that by next world cup, players at Piette's level aren't able to cut it for the national team (love sam), .

Yah that’s not going to happen in 4 years. We’re a long ways off from that 

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, Floortom said:

Yah that’s not going to happen in 4 years. We’re a long ways off from that 

Are we? The only three guys on our team with that definition would be Piette, Miller and Waterman.

[frmr]

As difficult as it is to predict young player trajectories, I would bet a large sum that Smith will turn into a solid top-5 league player. His ceiling is way higher than Piette's and I have no doubt he will reach it. Defensive players peak later and it's not a worry that a CB/CDM is still in the development phase at 19. Defensive players need more time to learn the game as compared to attackers. Plus, he still hasn't fully grown into his adult body, he's still lanky. He has a huge frame though so once he is fully physically formed and has shown that he think the game at pro level, he'll be what we all hope he is.

[InglewoodJack]

34 minutes ago, frmr said:

As difficult as it is to predict young player trajectories, I would bet a large sum that Smith will turn into a solid top-5 league player. His ceiling is way higher than Piette's and I have no doubt he will reach it. Defensive players peak later and it's not a worry that a CB/CDM is still in the development phase at 19. Defensive players need more time to learn the game as compared to attackers. Plus, he still hasn't fully grown into his adult body, he's still lanky. He has a huge frame though so once he is fully physically formed and has shown that he think the game at pro level, he'll be what we all hope he is.

Honest question, but what makes you so sure? He’s already dropped from PSG to Nice, to Quevilly to Quevilly II. Not that he would be the only good prospect who was dropped from his first big academy, but how can you be so sure that he’ll pan out this well?

[frmr]

20 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Honest question, but what makes you so sure? He’s already dropped from PSG to Nice, to Quevilly to Quevilly II. Not that he would be the only good prospect who was dropped from his first big academy, but how can you be so sure that he’ll pan out this well?

Well he hasn't "dropped" from Nice to QRM, he's out on loan. If they sold him to QRM and he couldn't get a game, that would be a different story. From what I've seen of him, he just has all the tools. There's not a single thing I've seen from him that would suggest that he won't be the player we want him to be. Granted, it is a relatively small sample size, but it's a sample size nonetheless. Until I see something that convinces me otherwise, I have no reason to change my thoughts on him. From the sounds of it on this board, people are starting to think he won't pan out, because of his lack of playing time, which I agree is not ideal, but I just think for a CB or CDM to be not getting first team minutes yet is no reason to panic. If he gets in the 21-22 range and he's still not playing in Ligue 1, then I will change my tune.

Edited January 13, 2023 by frmr
missed word

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Honest question, but what makes you so sure? He’s already dropped from PSG to Nice, to Quevilly to Quevilly II. Not that he would be the only good prospect who was dropped from his first big academy, but how can you be so sure that he’ll pan out this well?

The eye test I am guessing? I see a good player when I watch him, one with a lot more tools than Piette has. I agree with you though, just because he has the tools doesn't mean he'll reach his potential. He hasn't been doing anything on the club side to be optimistic about. 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, frmr said:

Well he hasn't "dropped" from Nice to QRM, he's out on loan. If they sold him to QRM and he couldn't get a game, that would be a different story. From what I've seen of him, he just has all the tools. 

I see it the same way as you:

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

The eye test I am guessing? I see a good player when I watch him, one with a lot more tools than Piette has. I agree with you though, just because he has the tools doesn't mean he'll reach his potential. He hasn't been doing anything on the club side to be optimistic about. 

However, I think he'll be lucky at this rate to be playing Ligue 1 soccer by 21-22:

3 minutes ago, frmr said:

If he gets in the 21-22 range and he's still playing in Ligue 1, then I will change my tune.

 

[frmr]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I see it the same way as you:

However, I think he'll be lucky at this rate to be playing Ligue 1 soccer by 21-22:

 

Sorry, I meant "not playing in Ligue 1".

[InglewoodJack]

14 minutes ago, frmr said:

Well he hasn't "dropped" from Nice to QRM, he's out on loan. If they sold him to QRM and he couldn't get a game, that would be a different story. From what I've seen of him, he just has all the tools. There's not a single thing I've seen from him that would suggest that he won't be the player we want him to be. Granted, it is a relatively small sample size, but it's a sample size nonetheless. Until I see something that convinces me otherwise, I have no reason to change my thoughts on him. From the sounds of it on this board, people are starting to think he won't pan out, because of his lack of playing time, which I agree is not ideal, but I just think for a CB or CDM to be not getting first team minutes yet is no reason to panic. If he gets in the 21-22 range and he's still not playing in Ligue 1, then I will change my tune.

I hope you're right- my whole point in bringing him up is that he's this prospect we don't know much about, because he barely plays, but he is attached to a big club, so it gets us excited. He has impressed me in what I've seen from him in friendlies and at the U20 tournament, but you would think that if the club saw anything in him, they'd give him at least some charity appearances in garbage time, if for no other reason than to maintain good relations with Nice. Most often, when you look back at where some of our NT players in "lesser" leagues got their starts, they look similar to that. Ugbo was a Chelsea prospect who got loaned into the abyss, Liam Millar even started a game for Liverpool, Piette played two games for Dusseldorf, so on.

Smith has never played a minute of competitive soccer for a professional club's first team, ever. He turns 20 in two weeks, and it doesn't look like it will change before then. Thus, we're now looking at a prospect who in the very best case scenario makes a Kone-like jump from obscurity to being a pro at that age which is a longshot for any young player, and even then, Kone played at a higher level than Smith, and transferred to a lower level than Ligue 1.

I'm fine with players developing late, especially defensive players, but the thing that is most concerning for me is that he hasn't played a single minute. QRM added him to the roster for this afternoon's game, so maybe today is where the tide turns for him, but if the rest of the season is more of the same for Smith, I think it's going to be extremely hard to somehow become a Ligue 1 guy anytime soon.

[frmr]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I hope you're right- my whole point in bringing him up is that he's this prospect we don't know much about, because he barely plays, but he is attached to a big club, so it gets us excited. He has impressed me in what I've seen from him in friendlies and at the U20 tournament, but you would think that if the club saw anything in him, they'd give him at least some charity appearances in garbage time, if for no other reason than to maintain good relations with Nice. Most often, when you look back at where some of our NT players in "lesser" leagues got their starts, they look similar to that. Ugbo was a Chelsea prospect who got loaned into the abyss, Liam Millar even started a game for Liverpool, Piette played two games for Dusseldorf, so on.

Smith has never played a minute of competitive soccer for a professional club's first team, ever. He turns 20 in two weeks, and it doesn't look like it will change before then. Thus, we're now looking at a prospect who in the very best case scenario makes a Kone-like jump from obscurity to being a pro at that age which is a longshot for any young player, and even then, Kone played at a higher level than Smith, and transferred to a lower level than Ligue 1.

I'm fine with players developing late, especially defensive players, but the thing that is most concerning for me is that he hasn't played a single minute. QRM added him to the roster for this afternoon's game, so maybe today is where the tide turns for him, but if the rest of the season is more of the same for Smith, I think it's going to be extremely hard to somehow become a Ligue 1 guy anytime soon.

Yeah, that's all fair. The big question mark here though is what is really going on with his club situation. Obviously we don't know the details, but there could be two very different pictures being painted. One is that he actually could be excelling at this level, but for whatever reason, he's not being played for reasons like QRM don't want to waste development time on a player that isn't theirs, maybe his manager has own designs which do not include him for whatever reason, or some other "unjust" reason why he isn't playing and that the loan itself is a failed loan. If that's the case and he really is on the cusp on Nice's first team, then that paints a very optimistic picture. Or, maybe he just isn't at Ligue 2 level and he truly isn't as good as we think he is, and that's why he isn't playing. Two very different scenarios but both could equally be true. In reality, the truth is probably somewhere in between.

[InglewoodJack]

  

7 minutes ago, frmr said:

 Two very different scenarios but both could equally be true. In reality, the truth is probably somewhere in between.

This is why I have now classified him as a (tier 2):

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

 shrodinger's prospect

 

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, frmr said:

Yeah, that's all fair. The big question mark here though is what is really going on with his club situation. Obviously we don't know the details, but there could be two very different pictures being painted. One is that he actually could be excelling at this level, but for whatever reason, he's not being played for reasons like QRM don't want to waste development time on a player that isn't theirs, maybe his manager has own designs which do not include him for whatever reason, or some other "unjust" reason why he isn't playing and that the loan itself is a failed loan. If that's the case and he really is on the cusp on Nice's first team, then that paints a very optimistic picture. Or, maybe he just isn't at Ligue 2 level and he truly isn't as good as we think he is, and that's why he isn't playing. Two very different scenarios but both could equally be true. In reality, the truth is probably somewhere in between.

This is what I am hoping for. The reason why I think something like this may be happening is because he's actually gotten more looks with Nice than QRM, which is obviously an inferior club despite the excellent season they are having. Maybe injuries and such have played a role, but I haven't paid enough attention. 

[InglewoodJack]

update: justin smith did not, in fact, make the match day squad.

[frmr]

Just now, InglewoodJack said:

update: justin smith did not, in fact, make the match day squad.

I think that's a mistake. Gbelle is listed as starting and on the bench.

[dyslexic nam]

My not-so-quick $0.02.  

The player of those 3 I have watched most is JMR.  But unless I start seeing something this upcoming season that begins to separate him from the pack, I will become increasingly skeptical that he will turn into a top calibre player.  He is still quite young so lots can obviously change but he doesn’t have pace or explosive acceleration, he doesn’t have elite ball skills that make him tricky, and he has never demonstrated specific skills like laser beam passes or a rocket of a shot that would separate him from the pack.  He seems like a smart, tidy, competent player.  I am not sure where that puts his ceiling but nothing so far that I have seen seems to justify the hype machine that went into over drive during his earliest days as a pro.  I sincerely hope he proves me wrong. 

I have limited time watching Smith and admittedly it was in the U20 tournament where he was playing against other young regional players, but he clearly stood head and shoulders above his Canadian teammates and was the only player to seem on par with the talented American team containing a lot of upwardly mobile US prospects.   His club situation has been a head scratcher but I can’t discount what I saw - that he is a talented, capable ball-player who can do the job in a predominantly defensive role.  

The person I haven’t seen at all is Koleosho.  Ironically, and purely talking out of my arse, he is the one I suspect may have the highest ceiling.  I can’t ignore the fact that a respectable La Liga team has had him on the bench and even handed him sub minutes with the senior team.  Injury depleted or not, the fact remains that is an extremely high level.  It doesn’t take too many fingers and toes to count the number of Canadians who have ever played in the top 3 leagues, so regardless of the circumstances of his appearances I put a lot of credence in the judgement of the Espanyol management team that felt he warranted those minutes/opportunities.  I find it hard to believe that either of the other two would be given a similar opportunity even under extenuating circumstances.  For that reason alone, he is probably the one I am most excited about.  

And just to throw a curveball into the mix, Jebbison may just top them all in terms of potential CMNT impact.   

 

 

 

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, frmr said:

I think that's a mistake. Gbelle is listed as starting and on the bench.

FOTMob has smith on the bench, you're right I think

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Floortom said:

Yah that’s not going to happen in 4 years. We’re a long ways off from that 

I also am not sure we are that far off in 2026.

Our attackers could easily be above this level. Drop Cav and add jebbison/corbeanu/koleosho and we are way past the mls level. Even with Cav, hes a DP caliber player and above the piette level. 

Our midfields could be Staq, kone, JMR (super unknown but possible), Smith/loturi/dias/simmons/pellegrino/costa/MJohnston?, zouhir playing in europe? Piette for experience? 
Obviously, a lot of prospects have to turn out in order for this to work, but lets also add in a few unknowns like kone and we have a possibility of outgrowing the piette level.

Our defenders is a big concern 

Johnston/laryea/adekugbe/davies are all at a higher level than piette
Cb is all slightly above, equal, or below the piette level. Maybe miller moves to europe? Cornelius takes off? Kennedy improves? 

We need some favourable outcomes but its not impossible to outgrow the piette level.

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

My not-so-quick $0.02.  

The player of those 3 I have watched most is JMR.  But unless I start seeing something this upcoming season that begins to separate him from the pack, I will become increasingly skeptical that he will turn into a top calibre player.  He is still quite young so lots can obviously change but he doesn’t have pace or explosive acceleration, he doesn’t have elite ball skills that make him tricky, and he has never demonstrated specific skills like laser beam passes or a rocket of a shot that would separate him from the pack.  He seems like a smart, tidy, competent player.  I am not sure where that puts his ceiling but nothing so far that I have seen seems to justify the hype machine that went into over drive during his earliest days as a pro.  I sincerely hope he proves me wrong. 

I have limited time watching Smith and admittedly it was in the U20 tournament where he was playing against other young regional players, but he clearly stood head and shoulders above his Canadian teammates and was the only player to seem on par with the talented American team containing a lot of upwardly mobile US prospects.   His club situation has been a head scratcher but I can’t discount what I saw - that he is a talented, capable ball-player who can do the job in a predominantly defensive role.  

The person I haven’t seen at all is Koleosho.  Ironically, and purely talking out of my arse, he is the one I suspect may have the highest ceiling.  I can’t ignore the fact that a respectable La Liga team has had him on the bench and even handed him sub minutes with the senior team.  Injury depleted or not, the fact remains that is an extremely high level.  It doesn’t take too many fingers and toes to count the number of Canadians who have ever played in the top 3 leagues, so regardless of the circumstances of his appearances I put a lot of credence in the judgement of the Espanyol management team that felt he warranted those minutes/opportunities.  I find it hard to believe that either of the other two would be given a similar opportunity even under extenuating circumstances.  For that reason alone, he is probably the one I am most excited about.  

And just to throw a curveball into the mix, Jebbison may just top them all in terms of potential CMNT impact.   

 

 

 

This^^^! 

[InglewoodJack]

To actually answer my own question, I think JMR is the best prospect of all 3. He's played the most professional soccer, he had made the MLS team of the month before he got injured, I think had he played the whole season and had toronto not signed the most expensive players they ever had, he likely would've started almost every game and probably be on his way to a good european team by now. If we ignore all the hype, he's our only 18 year old player playing professionally, I think. That counts for a lot.

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

To actually answer my own question, I think JMR is the best prospect of all 3. He's played the most professional soccer, he had made the MLS team of the month before he got injured, I think had he played the whole season and had toronto not signed the most expensive players they ever had, he likely would've started almost every game and probably be on his way to a good european team by now. If we ignore all the hype, he's our only 18 year old player playing professionally, I think. That counts for a lot.

I would love for this to be true.  And his capable performances at such a young age suggest promise.  But I can’t deny that I am just not seeing the kind of performances or potential that matches the hype.  To date he has looked like a competent MLS player.  And that is very cool for an 18 year old.   But it doesn’t seem to suggest a path to the top tiers of footy.  

[Obinna]

15 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

To actually answer my own question, I think JMR is the best prospect of all 3. He's played the most professional soccer, he had made the MLS team of the month before he got injured, I think had he played the whole season and had toronto not signed the most expensive players they ever had, he likely would've started almost every game and probably be on his way to a good european team by now. If we ignore all the hype, he's our only 18 year old player playing professionally, I think. That counts for a lot.

To add, this was while playing out of position as a FB. The fact he stepped into that position and played well speaks to how adaptable he is. It speaks to how good his football IQ is. I know it seems like I rag on him playing FB a lot, but the fact he can do so (and do so well) speaks to how good of a player/prospect he is. 

The few minutes I watched of Koleosho in La Liga, he was very, very exciting. Not because he dominated, but because he was technically and skill wise at the level of everyone else on the field. It was a small sample size, granted, but all that is needed is minutes to gain experience, in my view anyway.

Koleosho has "top 5 league" ability, just like Corbeanu, but unlike Theo his decision making doesn't seem to be a question mark. It actually seemed very mature (not outstanding, just not problematic). Corbeanu, the last few times I watched him, still had decision making that I view as problematic. Not sure to what degree he cleaned that up at Blackpool, though. Talent is there, decision making is questionable. 

While I like Rutty for his versatility, could we drop him into a Top 5 league squad today and expect him to hang? Maybe? We've seen Corbeanu do it at Wolves, Luca do it at Espanyol....

Liverpool seemed to like him, but that's training.  

Edited January 13, 2023 by Obinna

[Shway]

He’s been at previous camps, but has requested to not play?….

He hasn’t been invited to any US camps yet…..

Idc about “benefit of the doubt”, I’m not as optimistic, or holding on a prayer like some of you - and that’s fine.

I’ll stick to my statement. Until he’s fully capped, and fully a member then I will care.

We have wayyy to many of these cases in which I’ve given the BOD.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

He’s been at previous camps, but has requested to not play?….

He hasn’t been invited to any US camps yet…..

Idc about “benefit of the doubt”, I’m not as optimistic, or holding on a prayer like some of you - and that’s fine.

I’ll stick to my statement. Until he’s fully capped, and fully a member then I will care.

We have wayyy to many of these cases in which I’ve given the BOD.

I really don't think there are that many cases, maybe only a half dozen of interest.

Just to be exact, he likely would have gotten minutes in the friendly at BC Place, if we hadn't cancelled.

Then, he was at a US camp in the spring of 2022, but it was an u-20 B camp in California, they sent him with the fringe of the u-20 group, they played some games against university teams. So they did not even consider him to be amongst the best 20-25 they had at that age.

I have the impression that he was not impressed with having to train and play at a level far below what he sees weekly and he'd shown, it was a bit like disrespecting his club level. A month later he had his 1st team debut with Espanyol and accepted our call-up shortly afterwards.

The other factor in our favour is that he's American, but his mother is Canadian and his father is from Nigeria. So his US ties are there but not as powerful as others perhaps.