Ismael Kenneth Kone

[prairiecanuck]

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

I guess it all depends on him. If he wants to become a solid central midfielder, he can keep doing what he's doing. However, if he wants to become world class, he has to show that little bit of extra spark that we saw early on, making deep runs up the middle, taking guys on intelligently. I'm not saying he needs to become Fernando Redondo overnight but this guy has the tools to be on the Argentine's level. 

He just turned 20 though.  He's still the young guy in the locker room who has had 13 professional starts.  There's a balance between the fear of making a mistake being the young kid and having the confidence to be bold.  It's a lot easier to be bold when your place in the starting 11 is cemented and a mistake or two isn't going to change that.  

There's plenty of time for the kid to develop.

[SpecialK]

3 hours ago, Macksam said:

I guess it all depends on him. If he wants to become a solid central midfielder, he can keep doing what he's doing. However, if he wants to become world class, he has to show that little bit of extra spark that we saw early on, making deep runs up the middle, taking guys on intelligently. I'm not saying he needs to become Fernando Redondo overnight but this guy has the tools to be on the Argentine's level. 

I agree with you. I found him kinda lazy out there to be honest. He didn't do  anything special out there. He didn’t drive the attack. We say oh he’s young and all that but football stars are developing  younger and younger, it’s the way the game is going. 

[InglewoodJack]

I only caught the highlights last night, but he seemed to be really involved whenever Montreal was looking dangerous.

[Kent]

On 7/30/2022 at 10:42 AM, costarg said:

There are a few things to take into consideration here.  Davies is on the world top 11, I think we can all agree he would not be there if he had stayed in BC two more years. He left at that critical 18-21 range. 

Norwich is not Ajax or Sporting Lisbon, but i'm pretty confident they're better off than CFM in the player development side.  I can't imagine any 18-21 player being better off at CFM, TFC or VWC compared to developping in EU.  The coaching and training is just on another level.

I am very late to this, but I have some thoughts.

A big difference between Davies and Kone is that when Davies left he was already an MLS all star. I haven't seen much of Kone play, but I don't think he is at that level yet.

Maybe you were just using EU as shorthand, but it's annoying whenever someone implies that all of the EU is better than MLS (in this case, in terms of development). Would 5th tier in England be better? How about the Estonian league? MLS isn't some wasteland where talented players go to die.

[Cicero]

17 minutes ago, Kent said:

I am very late to this, but I have some thoughts.

A big difference between Davies and Kone is that when Davies left he was already an MLS all star. I haven't seen much of Kone play, but I don't think he is at that level yet.

Maybe you were just using EU as shorthand, but it's annoying whenever someone implies that all of the EU is better than MLS (in this case, in terms of development). Would 5th tier in England be better? How about the Estonian league? MLS isn't some wasteland where talented players go to die.

I was the op on this side-topic. I don't want to be argumentative with those who are Europhiles, but I would ask this question: what could coaches over there be doing or simply know that is not happening or known here? Training with significantly better players, playing against better players, that's a clear improvement in development environment. But the coaching and knowledge, that's all pretty openly available. We've had all kinds of Euro coaches and players with Euro experience coaching and playing in MLS, so why wouldn't they be implementing the same things? There are coaching conferences and training courses in Europe that NA coaches attend. To think they wouldn't be implementing these things suggests they are unprofessional or not serious. I think there was a time in MLS that that was true. Maybe not even that long ago. I don't believe that's the case now.

I can also imagine at the Bayern or Man City etc. level that there is basically unlimited access to trainers, sports psychologists, nutritionists, doctors...basically anything one could possibly need or want, whenever you want it. How quickly does that diminish as you go down the strata? I don't know, but even by the Championship, it is probably significantly reduced. The budgets of Championship teams are not much different from MLS teams with the exception of the salary budget of teams who have just dropped. Some at the bottom tier of the Championship are actually lower than most MLS teams.

[The Beaver 2.0]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I am very late to this, but I have some thoughts.

A big difference between Davies and Kone is that when Davies left he was already an MLS all star. I haven't seen much of Kone play, but I don't think he is at that level yet.

Maybe you were just using EU as shorthand, but it's annoying whenever someone implies that all of the EU is better than MLS (in this case, in terms of development). Would 5th tier in England be better? How about the Estonian league? MLS isn't some wasteland where talented players go to die.

Yeah, I'd go so far as to say that MLS is becoming a solid development league. No, not every club is doing great developing young players, but some are excellent (think Philadelphia.) I expect MLS will continue to invest in its academies and other development incentives, if only because they've been doing very well the past few years in terms of selling players to Europe. Kone at Montreal seems like another example of a young, talented kid getting a chance to develop under smart, considered coaching and guidance. Another year at Montreal would be beneficial, I feel, but there might be some great opportunities overseas, too.  All depends on where he lands.  I trust some leagues to do a better job of developing young players than others. Germany, for instance, seems to have a better development mindset than the UK. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

I was the op on this side-topic. I don't want to be argumentative with those who are Europhiles, but I would ask this question: what could coaches over there be doing or simply know that is not happening or known here? Training with significantly better players, playing against better players, that's a clear improvement in development environment. But the coaching and knowledge, that's all pretty openly available. We've had all kinds of Euro coaches and players with Euro experience coaching and playing in MLS, so why wouldn't they be implementing the same things? There are coaching conferences and training courses in Europe that NA coaches attend. To think they wouldn't be implementing these things suggests they are unprofessional or not serious. I think there was a time in MLS that that was true. Maybe not even that long ago. I don't believe that's the case now.

I can also imagine at the Bayern or Man City etc. level that there is basically unlimited access to trainers, sports psychologists, nutritionists, doctors...basically anything one could possibly need or want, whenever you want it. How quickly does that diminish as you go down the strata? I don't know, but even by the Championship, it is probably significantly reduced. The budgets of Championship teams are not much different from MLS teams with the exception of the salary budget of teams who have just dropped. Some at the bottom tier of the Championship are actually lower than most MLS teams.

Any kid who trains at Dynamo Zagreb, Ajax, Benfica or Villareal will explain the difference very clearly to you. And it is not not minor, it is huge. 

You just have to look at what the ceiling is in MLS. It is low. Every five minutes in every single match you see things happen that you'd never get away with at age 19 at a top European academy where the demand is high. It doesn't matter what the coach may know: if you are taught to think before you receive the ball and prepare the ball when you are trapping for the next pass, that is wonderful. But because in MLS, where you as a young player are aspiring to be, no one closes down hard, hardly ever, and sometimes not even in their own box, it makes no difference: you can trap and have time for your pass.

Then you go to a top academy and you are closed down immediately and proven to be a slow thinker on the ball. So you have to start all over again, but you are in your 20s. Even Davies is an imprecise passer, sometime horribly so, because he was not trained any better as a kid. He was allowed to compensate his lack of precision passing with other things. So after 20 is a bit late, because you thought it was a top pro development system in MLS but you were wrong.

[Cicero]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 Even Davies is an imprecise passer, sometime horribly so, because he was not trained any better as a kid.

Pavard 88% over the last three seasons, Davies 86.7%. A little lower, but not huge. I'm sure you'll tell me he makes safer passes or something.

[InglewoodJack]

There are a couple differences off the top of my head. The european coaches we get are coaches who couldn't land top jobs in Europe- we're not getting their best. We're also competing against clubs that have a century+ of refining the way they do things. While you learn a lot from conferences and knowledge sharing, for the same reason that few attendees of the become a millionaire conference become millionaires, there's only so much you can learn. What makes these clubs so successful, beyond money, is decades of tweaking their processes to understand what makes their club work best. Not to mention, you learn by doing. All these Champions League coaches are traded amongst each other- there's just no way for MLS clubs to get that kind of experience.

It's also a lot harder to scout players when they play across the ocean. They made it a huge thing that Norwich flew to DC to speak to Kone, and he's one of the most hyped young players in MLS, meanwhile players of lower calibre developing in Europe would've gotten a visit, because it's normal. You fly to America, you scout a player, he has a bad game, you fly home. are you gonna fly back to catch him again and see if he was just having a bad day? Maybe, but you'd be more inclined to do so if it was a 2 hour flight away, not a 9 hour one.

 

In terms of budgets, here's Norwich City's training grounds: https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/gallery-inside-ncfc-rejuvenated-colney-training-ground-8397896

Here's CF Montreal's: https://en.cfmontreal.com/stadium/centre-nutrilait

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, Cicero said:

Pavard 88% over the last three seasons, Davies 86.7%. A little lower, but not huge. I'm sure you'll tell me he makes safer passes or something.

Of course he does, he is a very safe passer. A huge % are back to the central defender. Apart from the fact that virtually no team in Bundesliga high presses the Bayern back line, they have time galore because all rivals, except maybe Dortmund on a good day, sit back in a lower block.

When he is going forward he kills many attacking plays by passing to the wrong side of the guy who's receiving. He actually does not consider how the ball is going to be trapped by the receiver, there are more or less hail-Marys.

He never was a great passer in MLS and he is not one at Bayern. Even his crossing in from his good foot: his assist total is nothing out of this world, he's inefficient still. And may always be inefficient.

The day he has a coach who asks him to be regularly part of the attack, or like he is with Canada, where the passes are forward, part of quick attacking plays, need to be done at a higher pace, and where the defenders are closing down harder, he may be asked to step it up a bit.

Tajon is another who, with Canada, has totally blown simple passes and killed off attacking plays. I think he is improving at Bruges, will be interesting to see though.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

In terms of budgets, here's Norwich City's training grounds: https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/gallery-inside-ncfc-rejuvenated-colney-training-ground-8397896

Here's CF Montreal's: https://en.cfmontreal.com/stadium/centre-nutrilait

 

Gotta love that vegetable patch at the Norwich grounds!

[InglewoodJack]

The question about whether players should go to europe or grow in MLS is an existential one as to the type of players we should be focusing on for CANMNT. We should be aspiring to take the next jump, which is fielding a team capable of exiting their WC group. For that, you need players in top 5 leagues, and the best way to achieve that is by going there as young as possible. And it may not work for everyone- some guys sputter out and find themselves in a lower league, or some should've stayed in MLS a bit longer, but are those players really gonna be the ones to take our program in the direction it needs to go? We can argue a guy like liam fraser should've never left toronto for Belgian second div, fine, but what if he stays at Toronto- his career would've been on a better trajectory, but is another TFC player the thing that's going to make us competitive against Croatia or Belgium? Same with Kone- if he can't cut it in England (if he does get his move there some day), maybe he would've benefited from a longer stint at Montreal, but that also means he's not the guy we think he is; we care about him because he has the potential to play in a top league.

I guess it's different if you take the POV of the player- different environments develop players differently, but for our national team, every player needs to be tested at the highest level possible because that's where our program is headed. I'm less concerned about richie ennin playing in latvia or hungary, or jayson leutwiler playing in the national league, I care about theo corbeanu playing for Wolverhampton or Belal Halbouni getting noticed by a bundesliga team. Maybe neither of those guys are prioritized at their clubs and as such they never make it, but if they never make it, they're not players taht are that important to us in the grand scheme.

[GasPed]

10 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

He never was a great passer in MLS and he is not one at Bayern. Even his crossing in from his good foot: his assist total is nothing out of this world, he's inefficient still. And may always be inefficient.

I agree that Davies is still not a great passer, but he is much much better than he was with the Whitecaps, primarily because, as you said, he understands how to anticipate and use his teammates at a high (rather than rudimentary) level.  He rarely outright gives the ball away now, even when pressed hard (something that can't be said for all his teammates, ahem, Sane), and most of his incompletions are in the opposing third where crosses are hit and miss at the best of times.

But it was hard-won progress to be sure.  Davies himself said in his first practices he was routinely humiliated in the possession drills just because he gave the ball away so much.  The intensity of the practices, coupled with the relatively laissez-faire training he got with the Caps, pretty much set him up for failure.  Frankly, if it wasn't for the fact that he is a physical freak of nature, he could well have washed out without ever making the first team.

[An Observer]

33 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Any kid who trains at Dynamo Zagreb, Ajax, Benfica or Villareal will explain the difference very clearly to you. And it is not not minor, it is huge. 

You just have to look at what the ceiling is in MLS. It is low. Every five minutes in every single match you see things happen that you'd never get away with at age 19 at a top European academy where the demand is high. It doesn't matter what the coach may know: if you are taught to think before you receive the ball and prepare the ball when you are trapping for the next pass, that is wonderful. But because in MLS, where you as a young player are aspiring to be, no one closes down hard, hardly ever, and sometimes not even in their own box, it makes no difference: you can trap and have time for your pass.

Then you go to a top academy and you are closed down immediately and proven to be a slow thinker on the ball. So you have to start all over again, but you are in your 20s. Even Davies is an imprecise passer, sometime horribly so, because he was not trained any better as a kid. He was allowed to compensate his lack of precision passing with other things. So after 20 is a bit late, because you thought it was a top pro development system in MLS but you were wrong.

If closing down hard is the only difference between Europe and NA at all levels (and from what you seem to suggest, it’s all of Europe), that seems something very easy to teach and in-still. Wonder why it doesn’t happen in North America? 

Personally, I think the development channels in Europe and NA are much closer than people on this board such as you think.  And there is a much wider variance in coaching in Europe than people like you acknowledg. Personally, I think the big differences are less about the coaching at the top levels whether academy or professionally and its more about (1) the top athletes in Europe play football whereas that is not generally the case in North America so the talent pool from the get go is a lot smaller; and (2) the culture is so imbedded in Europe that its ever present everywhere and players better understand the nuances of the game from a young age which are ultimately reflected in them becoming more complete players.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 minutes ago, GasPed said:

But it was hard-won progress to be sure.  Davies himself said in his first practices he was routinely humiliated in the possession drills just because he gave the ball away so much.  The intensity of the practices, coupled with the relatively laissez-faire training he got with the Caps, pretty much set him up for failure.  Frankly, if it wasn't for the fact that he is a physical freak of nature, he could well have washed out without ever making the first team.

This leap to the speed of practice drills also happens as you step from one system to another at the top level. Almost every player who came into Barça in the glory years with Xavi and Iniesta was humilliated in the famous "rondos", because the ball just sizzled. Even players you many not appreciate for their skill: Busquets is just amazing in practice, for me one of the most impressive of the current players, but he grew up the son of a Barça player, it's logical.

Of course this can become a form of decadence, which is how I see it at Barça, we got stuck in a Johan Cruyff paradigm from the 90s and that does not always enable you to compete to win. Every 5-10 years there is an inflection in international football and you have to shift with it, or die on the pitch. Probably losing Messi and replacing him with Lewandowski and Aubemayang is a good reflection of the club finally understanding that.

BTW, I remember watching Ballou warming up before Barça B matches and he was fine, he learned to be a sizzler, the ball just burned the turf, they were just angling feet and richocheting off each other, there was virtually no hip movement at all.

But even when my kid went to a HP academy age 12, they would just blast balls at each other from 10, then 15, then 20 m, and they could do it for 15 minutes, scores of passes at high volume to the controlling foot. All that faster, faster, then the kids fail and you laugh and do something else---well no, faster, faster, fail, then try again.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

29 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Gotta love that vegetable patch at the Norwich grounds!

You should check out the current state of Coventry's home ground

[GasPed]

45 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

This leap to the speed of practice drills also happens as you step from one system to another at the top level. Almost every player who came into Barça in the glory years with Xavi and Iniesta was humilliated in the famous "rondos", because the ball just sizzled. Even players you many not appreciate for their skill: Busquets is just amazing in practice, for me one of the most impressive of the current players, but he grew up the son of a Barça player, it's logical.

Davies also said he was megged three times by Boateng in his first rondo.  He said they were all laughing at him, but he was laughing too - which is maybe why he was so quickly accepted by the team...

Edited August 8, 2022 by GasPed

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 minutes ago, An Observer said:

If closing down hard is the only difference between Europe and NA at all levels (and from what you seem to suggest, it’s all of Europe), that seems something very easy to teach and in-still. Wonder why it doesn’t happen in North America? 

Personally, I think the development channels in Europe and NA are much closer than people on this board such as you think.  And there is a much wider variance in coaching in Europe than people like you acknowledg. Personally, I think the big differences are less about the coaching at the top levels whether academy or professionally and its more about (1) the top athletes in Europe play football whereas that is not generally the case in North America so the talent pool from the get go is a lot smaller; and (2) the culture is so imbedded in Europe that its ever present everywhere and players better understand the nuances of the game from a young age which are ultimately reflected in them becoming more complete players.

I never said it was the "only" difference, I gave one single example, that is all. One that irks me.

Just a question though: where in North America do all the 7 year olds in Grade 2, at lunch, go out and play soccer in the school ground for 45 minutes? All, meaning say 50-70%, boys and girls? Every day? And then the same in Grade 3, 4, 5, 6...

[N1ckbr0wn]

7 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I never said it was the "only" difference, I gave one single example, that is all. One that irks me.

Just a question though: where in North America do all the 7 year olds in Grade 2, at lunch, go out and play soccer in the school ground for 45 minutes? All, meaning say 50-70%, boys and girls? Every day? And then the same in Grade 3, 4, 5, 6...

May be an outlier as my private school had a very strong soccer program, but we did at mine. All grades and genders

infact me and a good chunk of my classmates all played on the same rep team in club ball. Same went for older grades and lower grades. Very competitive 

Edited August 8, 2022 by N1ckbr0wn

[kacbru]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I never said it was the "only" difference, I gave one single example, that is all. One that irks me.

Just a question though: where in North America do all the 7 year olds in Grade 2, at lunch, go out and play soccer in the school ground for 45 minutes? All, meaning say 50-70%, boys and girls? Every day? And then the same in Grade 3, 4, 5, 6...

We did at mine, but played with a tennis ball and called it foot hockey.  

[InglewoodJack]

14 minutes ago, An Observer said:

If closing down hard is the only difference between Europe and NA at all levels (and from what you seem to suggest, it’s all of Europe), that seems something very easy to teach and in-still. Wonder why it doesn’t happen in North America? 

Personally, I think the development channels in Europe and NA are much closer than people on this board such as you think.  And there is a much wider variance in coaching in Europe than people like you acknowledg. Personally, I think the big differences are less about the coaching at the top levels whether academy or professionally and its more about (1) the top athletes in Europe play football whereas that is not generally the case in North America so the talent pool from the get go is a lot smaller; and (2) the culture is so imbedded in Europe that its ever present everywhere and players better understand the nuances of the game from a young age which are ultimately reflected in them becoming more complete players.

There isn't necessarily an overlap between top athletes in other sports and soccer. Guys like Lebron James, DK Metcalf, Sidney Crosby, etc. wouldn't have (necessarily) became star soccer players either, just like if Leo Messi grew up in Canada, he wouldn't necessarily be the next marty st. louis (size comparison). Not to mention, there have been more registered soccer players than hockey players in canada for like 30 years now, and IIRC there is a higher proportion of young canadians playing soccer than many top soccer nations.

The culture and early investment in development is a big one though. Someone did a study, maybe it was from that Malcolm Gladwell book, where in hockey in Canada, players start to separate between elite and decent as young as 5 years old, and that's often heavily impacted by the month they were born in. You were born in January vs. a kid born in September means you're 6 months older (big dif when you're a small child), thus bigger, thus more likely to make all star teams which give you more practice with better players, which puts you in a better spot to play for your top local teams, which as you get older gives you better professional opportunities, etc. By the time you're 17 and getting ready for the draft, you have years of superior development over kids who were held back due to something trivial when they were starting out. Same in soccer. going to England at 16 vs. going at 24 gives you an inside track, and you have an even better track if you somehow stuck on a european academy even younger. If Kone goes to Norwich or a similar team at 20, there's a pretty good chance he makes his way to the premier league eventually, vs. Richie Laryea, if he goes back to Nottingham Forest, it's not like he's going to suddenly develop into a premier league player at 30.

[Unnamed Trialist]

11 minutes ago, kacbru said:

We did at mine, but played with a tennis ball and called it foot hockey.  

Oh damn, we did that indoors when it was dark and rainy as kids. Useless IMHO. Should have used a smaller ball and played with outs, like futsal. Talking about the late 60s even.

[Cicero]

To get back, somewhat, on topic...I don't think anyone would argue that going to Bayern wasn't superior to staying at the Whitecaps for Davies. The team is made up of world elite players. You have to step up your game, or you won't stick. The question is whether going to a second division team, and potentially playing for their U23's, is really better than playing regular first team games with Montreal. I think that gap has closed substantially, and if he was playing U23 there, I think he's definitely better off at Montreal.

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

There isn't necessarily an overlap between top athletes in other sports and soccer. Guys like Lebron James, DK Metcalf, Sidney Crosby, etc. wouldn't have (necessarily) became star soccer players either, just like if Leo Messi grew up in Canada, he wouldn't necessarily be the next marty st. louis (size comparison). Not to mention, there have been more registered soccer players than hockey players in canada for like 30 years now, and IIRC there is a higher proportion of young canadians playing soccer than many top soccer nations.

The culture and early investment in development is a big one though. Someone did a study, maybe it was from that Malcolm Gladwell book, where in hockey in Canada, players start to separate between elite and decent as young as 5 years old, and that's often heavily impacted by the month they were born in. You were born in January vs. a kid born in September means you're 6 months older (big dif when you're a small child), thus bigger, thus more likely to make all star teams which give you more practice with better players, which puts you in a better spot to play for your top local teams, which as you get older gives you better professional opportunities, etc. By the time you're 17 and getting ready for the draft, you have years of superior development over kids who were held back due to something trivial when they were starting out. Same in soccer. going to England at 16 vs. going at 24 gives you an inside track, and you have an even better track if you somehow stuck on a european academy even younger. If Kone goes to Norwich or a similar team at 20, there's a pretty good chance he makes his way to the premier league eventually, vs. Richie Laryea, if he goes back to Nottingham Forest, it's not like he's going to suddenly develop into a premier league player at 30.

Interesting, because my kid is a January baby and yes, it may have helped him ensure his cred on the pitch at a young age. You take that advantage and then it creates self esteem and you stick with it.

Mind you, he was the littlest player on the field, as I was up to age 16. I once put him in a UBC camp back here, u-14, he was 12, and he ran the show as a mid, went back to get the ball from the CBs, turned, fed the other players, went in support. The coaches, some who even made pro or were semi-pro, told me he was better than any of them had been at that age. 

But in Spain he was just an average amongst the solid players. He played third tier u-19, for example, he was never even close to being elite.

So it is not just coaching, it is context. We may be sorting out coaching slowly (though up to 15 years ago it was mostly untrained dads doing it volunteer with zero credentials in Canada), but we are a long way from the context.

[InglewoodJack]

4 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Interesting, because my kid is a January baby and yes, it may have helped him ensure his cred on the pitch at a young age. You take that advantage and then it creates self esteem and you stick with it.

Mind you, he was the littlest player on the field, as I was up to age 16. I once put him in a UBC camp back here, u-14, he was 12, and he ran the show as a mid, went back to get the ball from the CBs, turned, fed the other players, went in support. The coaches, some who even made pro or were semi-pro, told me he was better than any of them had been at that age. 

But in Spain he was just an average amongst the solid players. He played third tier u-19, for example, he was never even close to being elite.

So it is not just coaching, it is context. We may be sorting out coaching slowly (though up to 15 years ago it was mostly untrained dads doing it volunteer with zero credentials in Canada), but we are a long way from the context.

Similar happened to me in baseball- I was one of my team's best players (mostly casual, U-12, suburban league), we washed our league, but when we played an exhibition game against the team that ended up representing canada at the little league world series, their pitcher through a no-hitter (it only wasn't a perfect game because I walked into a pitch to get on base) and they totally punked us. That team in turn got embarrassed at the LLWS once they had to face a team from the US or Japan. It's also safe to say not a single player from that Canadian team ever came close to making MLB.

 

With the age and birth month, that's just one factor- to be an elite player, you need elite talent, and if you have that, you can overcome all sorts of hurdles and disadvantages. But when you want to be an elite athlete, the difference between greatness and mediocrity can be minuscule little things out of your control when you were younger. On a whole other level, you take a 5 year old in Canada playing for the Winnipeg Sunshine Kids and you take a 5 year old british kid who plays for Manchester City, and by the time they're ready to go pro, one isn't even in the same stratosphere as the other.