Ismael Kenneth Kone

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, grigorio said:

GGG recently had this to say about some of the US’ young guys who made early moves to Europe. Curious what y’all make of them and if Koné is in the same class as the guys mentioned, above or below? Haven’t seen him play much at all tbh. https://twitter.com/nicocantor1/status/1549395240020332552?s=21&t=M1DGL80LloEujeDGtAaMvg

I would say Kone rightfully belongs amongst those names, hence why Norwich is interested.

He is somewhat of a late bloomer compared to most of them, however. Bello, who is the same age, played 57 MLS games for Atlanta before his move to Europe. Kone by contrast has played just 16 MLS games.

[Chad_Impact]

Kone to Norwhich would be an absolutely terrible move 

[MauditYvon]

Just now, Chad_Impact said:

Kone to Norwhich would be an absolutely terrible move 

Why?

[P-O]

Would be a great news.

But can't see him crack Norwich team that far into preseason. I'm scared he is going to end up in the meaningless PL U23.

Buy and loan back until january?

Then find him a loan in England to finish the year?

He isn't first choice in MTL and he's going to one of the toughest league in the world. 46 games + cups

[Chad_Impact]

19 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

Why?

Follow the proven path of success, not the one where 85% don't succeed and end up back in MLS or in League One. 

1: Make the move when you're ready, and imo he isn't. Kone is still very young and as many young talented players, he's inconsistent. He has flashes of the player he can be, but can often drift in and out of games. You make the big move to Europe when you are a no questions asked starter and dominating in most games. He's not there yet. 

2: Make the move that will allow you to develop and grow. As we've seen time and time again, the championship and England is not that in most cases. You want to transfer to clubs and leagues that have track records of developing young players because their business model relies on it. You will get legit chances and will be allowed to make mistakes/grow, which is not the case with the majority of English clubs. 

There is a high chance it would end up being a bad move for him. The MLS is not the terrible standard eurosnobs think it is, there's no need to rush. 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Chad_Impact

[MauditYvon]

15 minutes ago, Chad_Impact said:

Follow the proven path of success, not the one where 85% don't succeed and end up back in MLS or in League One. 

So he will just back up in MLS if things don’t go his way. What can he lose?

[MauditYvon]

He (and Mihailovic) could also be sold and loaned to Montréal until January 1st. 
 

EFL loaded calendar is excellent news.

[DeRo_Is_King]

1 hour ago, MauditYvon said:

Was thinking about him, but he played after MLS. Like Sebrango I think.

Pretty surprising, but after thinking about this, I don't know of any. 

Quebec has a ton of excellent players. I'm not sure why there's that disconnect.

If you look at youth soccer, whether at the club or provincial levels, as well as university teams like McGill, UdeM and Université Laval, Quebec reguarly has strong representation.

From purely a talent perspective, I've never understood why we don't see more Quebecers play in top-flight Europe. Then again, maybe I'm missing some who have.

Edit: Sandro Grande signed with Brescia when they were in Serie A back in 2001, but he never played. Actually, I remember him scoring a real cracker of a goal in a friendly vs Spain.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by DeRo_Is_King

[ag futbol]

Interest in Europe is great and I think he’s capable of having a great career there but right now he needs to look for a club side where he can tactically get up to speed and continue to get paying time.

The problem with Prem sides is the pressure to perform is immediate and if you’re not contributing immediately the clubs think nothing of putting you on the shelf. Even loan deals are tricky because incentives get warped.

I would try Holland, Belgium or similar. That’s a decent entry point.

[InglewoodJack]

13 hours ago, Obinna said:

Wandrille Lefèvre?

I mean, that counts, I was more thinking of guys who’ve made it out of the province, haha

[InglewoodJack]

26 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Interest in Europe is great and I think he’s capable of having a great career there but right now he needs to look for a club side where he can tactically get up to speed and continue to get paying time.

The problem with Prem sides is the pressure to perform is immediate and if you’re not contributing immediately the clubs think nothing of putting you on the shelf. Even loan deals are tricky because incentives get warped.

I would try Holland, Belgium or similar. That’s a decent entry point.

FWIW Norwich is in the championship, not the prem. They also flew all the way to the US to meet with Kone, so my guess is that they consider him an important player for them. The EFL is still a highly competitive league and we all saw what happened to Laryea, but the championship is around a similar quality to the Netherlands and Belgium. There’s also the added bonus that Norwich should be pushing for promotion, so there’s a situation in which he improves as the team does and finds himself in the premier league as a 21 or 22 year old with actual English football experience, and from there, the sky is the limit for him.

[InglewoodJack]

12 hours ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Pretty surprising, but after thinking about this, I don't know of any. 

Quebec has a ton of excellent players. I'm not sure why there's that disconnect.

If you look at youth soccer, whether at the club or provincial levels, as well as university teams like McGill, UdeM and Université Laval, Quebec reguarly has strong representation.

From purely a talent perspective, I've never understood why we don't see more Quebecers play in top-flight Europe. Then again, maybe I'm missing some who have.

Edit: Sandro Grande signed with Brescia when they were in Serie A back in 2001, but he never played. Actually, I remember him scoring a real cracker of a goal in a friendly vs Spain.  

Sporting resources in Quebec are pretty bare compared to Ontario and BC. I don’t think we have anything like Sigma FC in Ontario (who has produced like half of the NT), and Quebec players are less well represented in the NCAA and also the CPL- we don’t even have a team there. If you are a player in Quebec whose parents don’t have the money to uproot their life and move to the GTA or BC, then your only hope is getting noticed by CF Montreal or going to Europe extremely young like Piette or ZBR. 
 

it’s not apples to apples, but Quebec opened up a basketball school in Alma a few years ago and Adidas sponsored a competitive AAU team out of Montreal, and in the last 5 or so years, they’ve produced 4 NBA players from the city, which is by no means a traditional basketball market. If Quebec wants to put more players in Europe, we need a better development system and investments into youth development that rival what Ontario and our west are doing.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, ag futbol said:

Interest in Europe is great and I think he’s capable of having a great career there but right now he needs to look for a club side where he can tactically get up to speed and continue to get paying time.

The problem with Prem sides is the pressure to perform is immediate and if you’re not contributing immediately the clubs think nothing of putting you on the shelf. Even loan deals are tricky because incentives get warped.

I would try Holland, Belgium or similar. That’s a decent entry point.

Norwich is no longer in the Prem. They were relegated to the Championship.

Holland and Belgium have better reputations for developing players, but there are tons of young players in the Championship developing their game. I am not saying I prefer Norwich to say a Gent or Twente, in fact I would like to see what other clubs are trying to get him, but if it were solely the Canaries I would be supportive. I get the argument that MLS is a fine league for him to grow his game, surely he's yet to dominate this league, but it's exciting to see what our young players can do abroad. I don't know what their CM options are, but Wanayma and Piette (and probably Choniere) are all "Championship" level players anyways, so perhaps his job is not any more difficult, just the matter of a new team, system, league, etc. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Obinna

[Dominic94]

9 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Norwich is no longer in the Prem. They were relegated to the Championship.

Holland and Belgium have better reputations for developing players, but there are tons of young players in the Championship developing their game. I am not saying I prefer Norwich to say a Gent or Twente, in fact I would like to see what other clubs are trying to get him, but if it were solely the Canaries I would be supportive. I get the argument that MLS is a fine league for him to grow his game, surely he's yet to dominate this league, but it's exciting to see what our young players can do abroad. I don't know what their CM options are, but Wanayma and Piette (and probably Choniere) are all "Championship" level players anyways, so perhaps his job is not any more difficult, just the matter of a new team, system, league, etc. 

I was going to add that same point that Montreal does have some championship caliber players.

[canuckgbp]

Wonder what tier the "many other clubs" are at who are interested play. Hopefully, we will get some more reporting on that soon. Hard to know if the Championship is a good move without knowing the other options. As others have said, it is a tough league that can be ruthless at times for development.  

 

[frmr]

I've got no problem with our top young players moving to tough leagues like the Championship. We're at a point now where we shouldn't be afraid of our players taking too big of a step. Top countries (even Mexico and USA) wouldn't think twice about a young player moving to the Championship at 20. Is it a guarantee? Of course not, but let's take off the training wheels and have ambition with our young prospects rather than playing it safe because "the league is too hard". If we want to keep progressing we need our players to show ambition and learn to rise to the occasion. If it's a step too far, c'est la vie, loan him out for a year.

[Corazon]

28 minutes ago, frmr said:

I've got no problem with our top young players moving to tough leagues like the Championship. We're at a point now where we shouldn't be afraid of our players taking too big of a step. Top countries (even Mexico and USA) wouldn't think twice about a young player moving to the Championship at 20. Is it a guarantee? Of course not, but let's take off the training wheels and have ambition with our young prospects rather than playing it safe because "the league is too hard". If we want to keep progressing we need our players to show ambition and learn to rise to the occasion. If it's a step too far, c'est la vie, loan him out for a year.

USA absolutely but Mexico is by far one of the worst countries sending players overseas.  Mexico (LigaMX) is actually well known for holding back their young players from moving to Europe. It takes years for most "European quality" Mexican players to move abroad and many do not ever even get there.

[Cicero]

I can understand the eagerness for the opportunity to try to make it in the most lucrative soccer nation on Earth, but the economics of going to Europe are becoming less clear every year. It's still obvious for players like Alphonso Davies and Christian Pulisic, but even for the next tier, while it's still worth it for now, it's not as obvious as it was even a couple years ago. Take Tyler Adams for instance. He was on 2.5 millionish gross at Leipzig, which is about the same in USD. I don't know what Leeds is paying him, but is it impossible that an MLS team would pay him that? He'd probably have trouble getting it, but DP's on almost every team make that kind of money, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Does he get more ancillary money from being in Europe? I don't know, maybe. I think in five years, the economic logic of going will be gone for all but those playing on the 'Superleague' teams. I guess there's more glory playing in soccer-first countries, and it's a dream for many, but we will soon have to adjust our thinking from this obsession with getting every player to Europe.

I can't think of many examples where playing for a second tier league in Europe has launched a player up into the elite tier of teams. Hopefully Richie Laryea can somehow make it work and buck that trend.

[frmr]

9 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I can understand the eagerness for the opportunity to try to make it in the most lucrative soccer nation on Earth, but the economics of going to Europe are becoming less clear every year. It's still obvious for players like Alphonso Davies and Christian Pulisic, but even for the next tier, while it's still worth it for now, it's not as obvious as it was even a couple years ago. Take Tyler Adams for instance. He was on 2.5 millionish gross at Leipzig, which is about the same in USD. I don't know what Leeds is paying him, but is it impossible that an MLS team would pay him that? He'd probably have trouble getting it, but DP's on almost every team make that kind of money, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Does he get more ancillary money from being in Europe? I don't know, maybe. I think in five years, the economic logic of going will be gone for all but those playing on the 'Superleague' teams. I guess there's more glory playing in soccer-first countries, and it's a dream for many, but we will soon have to adjust our thinking from this obsession with getting every player to Europe.

I can't think of many examples where playing for a second tier league in Europe has launched a player up into the elite tier of teams. Hopefully Richie Laryea can somehow make it work and buck that trend.

Jonathan David?

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, frmr said:

Jonathan David?

I suspect he means an actual D2 league (like the Championship) vs what many would consider to be a second tier European D1 (like Belgium or Holland).  The latter pathway is well established.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by dyslexic nam

[Cicero]

3 minutes ago, frmr said:

Jonathan David?

Is Lille elite? I don't know what they pay. If you consider it that, I guess he'd be one. I should have added that I meant North American players as well. There have been lots of players from other countries who've followed that route obviously.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Cicero

[frmr]

5 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Is Lille elite? If you consider it that, I guess he'd be one. I should have added that I meant North American players as well. There have been lots of players from other countries who've followed that route obviously.

I wouldn't consider Lille elite, although they did pip PSG to the title two years ago, so I think you could make the argument. We all know David will end up at an elite club though at some point in his career. And I would bet my life that if he decided to start his career in MLS, his career would be worse off right now.

Edited July 26, 2022 by frmr

[Cicero]

4 minutes ago, frmr said:

I wouldn't consider Lille elite, although they did pip PSG to the title last year, so I think you could make the argument. We all know David will end up at an elite club though at some point in his career. And I would bet my life that if he decided to start his career in MLS, his career would be worse off right now.

I'd agree with that. I think he's in the 'obviously better off' category, particularly as a striker. In five years if someone like him is coming up? Probably still better off, but it might be questionable.

But would someone like Jr. Hoilett be better off today by going to the Championship? I'm not so sure.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Cicero

[InglewoodJack]

37 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I can understand the eagerness for the opportunity to try to make it in the most lucrative soccer nation on Earth, but the economics of going to Europe are becoming less clear every year. It's still obvious for players like Alphonso Davies and Christian Pulisic, but even for the next tier, while it's still worth it for now, it's not as obvious as it was even a couple years ago. Take Tyler Adams for instance. He was on 2.5 millionish gross at Leipzig, which is about the same in USD. I don't know what Leeds is paying him, but is it impossible that an MLS team would pay him that? He'd probably have trouble getting it, but DP's on almost every team make that kind of money, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Does he get more ancillary money from being in Europe? I don't know, maybe. I think in five years, the economic logic of going will be gone for all but those playing on the 'Superleague' teams. I guess there's more glory playing in soccer-first countries, and it's a dream for many, but we will soon have to adjust our thinking from this obsession with getting every player to Europe.

I can't think of many examples where playing for a second tier league in Europe has launched a player up into the elite tier of teams. Hopefully Richie Laryea can somehow make it work and buck that trend.

Tyler Adams would be like the 17th highest paid player in the MLS, and I don't think any team would give him that money, especially with salary cap constraints. It's also a further investment- I assume his plan was to move up a league (he has), and the next step is to sign a bigger deal with Leeds once the deal he signed at Leipzig is done, and I think it's natural for any young athlete with strong potential to bet on themselves this way. Also, can't remember if the bundesliga is an exception, but many european leagues report salaries in Net. Not to mention many countries in Europe have lower cost of living than here. Sam Adekugbe making whatever he makes at Hatayspor goes way farther than what he'd make at like TFC for example. 

Re: "elite teams" I think we need to set realistic expectations in that Canada as a country has fewer players than one can count on one hand that could play for truly elite teams (I saw you discredited Lille so I assume you mean champions league contenders)- the difference between a 20 year old canadian getting interest from Man City or Liverpool or whatever isn't whether he develops in the MLS for a few seasons or not, it's that we don't have players at that level, generally, outside of Davies and David (currently).

But looking down the list in terms of players who went to europe and saw success, Junior Hoilett has 8 years in the EFL under his belt with 3 in the prem; strongly doubt he'd find those wages stateside. Borjan played in like Bulgaria and some other places and now he's the captain of Red Star. Liam Miller went to Liverpool, it didn't work out, now he's playing very well at Basel, another champions league side. Eustaquio climbed through the ranks in Portugal, and now he's at Porto.

 

What this national team needs is players with as much experience as possible against the best players in the world. Those players will not play in the MLS for a few decades, at least, so they need to go to Europe. Eventually maybe the question of wages will become a factor, but the MLS isn't set up so that the next American or Canadian phenom is enticed to stay in North America.

[costarg]

We're ignoring an important detail, many guys are being held back in MLS. Those 18-21 years are crucial, and we've/we're seeing too many guys not getting the minutes or the right guidance.  Most MLS teams just aren't built to develop, there is no one with the right skill set to take the young talents to the next level, its more than just getting the minutes.  Too many teams and coaches are in it for themselves and want to win right now.  Kone will just stagnate if he stays at CFM.

Vancouver did the right thing with Davies, let him go before he stagnates. Ballou didn't have the mentor or support he needed in Montreal and the front office was clueless on how to handle his talent (Drogba came too late, and i'm not sure he actually is a good mentor).  Then you have the Frasers, JMRs, Okellos, Baldissimos, etc.... we criticize their play, but who do they have to help them along?  Those guys gotta get out of there.  Most EU leagues are on another level development wise.  Sure, some of them won't make it, but many of them aren't even getting the chance or opportunity to make it here either.