Ismael Kenneth Kone

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

No, I watch Championship, and have been in stadiums watching the top four divisions of English football. Just as I've seen German top three, and Spanish pretty well all 9-10 tiers plus all youth tiers. I watch, and establish an opinion.

And that bothers you. I hear in North Korea you'll feel more comfortable if plurality of ideas is a problem.

I grew up idolizing English, and Scottish teams, and a bit of German as well because of what we had on tv, but then I got to experience something new. And my opinion changed: English football is not as good as it is made out, the fans are a lot worse than what is said about them in comparison to others (I've consistently seen them sit on their hands, at Camp Nou and away, and I've seen 7-8 teams plus the Scots), the play is not as good except at the very top, the tactical knowledge of the average footballer is worse than Spain or Italy. The vast majority of coaches in EPL are not even English anymore, I mean, they themselves recognize they can't coach themselves at the elite level (more Spaniards than English, wonder why). They are comparatively poor at adjusting to game situations as there is one read. Which also shows in the performance of the senior National team, which unlike Spain, Germany or Italy has not won a thing in 55 years (and even then there was a phantom goal to help). 

Some are just defending a shibboleth because they don't know better. They've never watched anything else, you were watching Demba Ba and Robbie Keane when you could have watched Messi and Ronaldo, but I appreciate time is money and you can't waste it on what you have no clue of. You are invested in the discourse, which is shoved down a lot of throats. And then there is the pure ignorance of what 2nd divisions are like elsewhere, in Spain and German they are full of top level powerhouse teams, most with top flight history, many with trophies (though not from 1888), in large stadiums. And they don't play useless filler games against teams playing for absolutely nothing where the players are pushed to exhaustion. Those are the facts.

Look, I don't watch 2nd tier anywhere unless there's a team I follow, or a Canadian, it is not my priority. I actually prefer to watch a 4th or 5th because I like the atmosphere more, where you can smell the grass and food and drink are cheap. I watch my local u19 team promoted to 2nd tier Spanish. So it is not like I am saying entertainment value is better elsewhere, it's mostly dire. 

Where Kone is, it's dire. It's mostly crap. You put a kid in that situation and he'll learn a lot, but he won't learn anything to make him become a top-flight elite player, he'll just get paid well and get his legs. If he doesn't move on while he's still young he won't be able to make significant contributions to the Canadian national team project because he won't be able to trap, touch, turn and move without the ball to build possession in a 3-man midfield. Which is currently the case.

That's a whole lot of text to not address the point.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

To be fair, the best midfielder in the world and the likely best player on earth this time next year came up through Birmingham in the championship. Moved on younger sure, but the championship develops strong players. 

I look at the team I know best.  Cresswell, Benrahma, Bowen, Ings and Antonio are the ones  that spend significant time in Championship.  Antonio is the only that fits the stereotype and he had to change positions and develop further before finding any kind of success at the top level.  Ings is a small poacher, a very good one in his day.  Cresswell was always a better attacking fullback/set piece taker than he was a defender. Benrahma is a flair player whose weaknesses weren't exposed in the Championship.  Bowen has a ton of skill and built a whole lot of toughness there.

Trying to make the Championship just one thing in terms of player development is honestly just ignorant.  No other word for it.

[Obinna]

30 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

No, I watch Championship, and have been in stadiums watching the top four divisions of English football.

 

30 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Look, I don't watch 2nd tier anywhere unless there's a team I follow, or a Canadian, it is not my priority.

 

31 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You put a kid in that situation and he'll learn a lot, but he won't learn anything to make him become a top-flight elite player

 

[Obinna]

@Unnamed Trialist I value your opinion on Spanish football, because you are clearly very well versed and immersed in it.

Similarly, I value the opinion of @WestHamCanadianinOxford when it comes to English football, for the same reasons. 

And if your take is that English football lacks the tactical nuance of Spanish or Italian football, I get that point, but I will put more stock into this point:

12 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Trying to make the Championship just one thing in terms of player development is honestly just ignorant.  No other word for it.

And honestly, that is probably that is true for most leagues, especially the heterogenous ones.

[Joe1973]

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Bigandy said:

They are. 

BVB is my dream scenario for him. 

The other scenario is that my early guestimate is his ceiling is lower end top 5 league. He seems suited to englands physical style more than spain. I think france is a small downgrade unless he goes to psg. I dont think he suits serie a as well as he does bundesliga. So my guess is bundesliga or prem. 

Who knows though. 

This would be cool to see. Makes me wonder where his ceiling is. I feel like if he sticks it out with Watford and they get to the EPL again, his ceiling could be star player for a lower to mid table team, be it at Watford or elsewhere. Would just need to prove himself. He has the physical and technical tools. I imagine a career akin to Clint Dempsey, just a different position obviously. I just mean that in terms of importance to his club, not his offensive numbers or anything.

I do believe though he has goals in his game and judging from the interview he feels the same way. I would like to see him notch 4 to 6 league goals this season. He almost scored 2 in this game alone, so if he gets another 1 to 2 before the new year he's halfway there. In my books that would be some nice growth in his first full season abroad.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Talking to guys about the English tiers is like talking to religious fanatics, it's just dogma and fear and brimstone irrationality. This of course is true for most major football cultures, but England is the worst. Sure, the Argentines are unbearable too, and also to the point of laughable, but at least they've won a few WCs and produced some of the greatest footballers the world has ever seen. 

When you see someone who's been captured by a sect and apes the line they've been proselytized to ape, it's natural to hope they might find some form of escape

#FreeKone

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Talking to guys about the English tiers is like talking to religious fanatics, it's just dogma and fear and brimstone irrationality. This of course is true for most major football cultures, but England is the worst. Sure, the Argentines are unbearable too, and also to the point of laughable, but at least they've won a few WCs and produced some of the greatest footballers the world has ever seen. 

When you see someone who's been captured by a sect and apes the line they've been proselytized to ape, it's natural to hope they might find some form of escape

#FreeKone

One side has religious, dogmatic fervour on this, mate, and it's you when your ridiculous "facts" about the Championship get challenged. 

Try arguing the point you made, not calling people who disagree with you "apes" and engaging in that pulpit-style rhetoric that is really silly on a football forum.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

12 hours ago, Obinna said:

This would be cool to see. Makes me wonder where his ceiling is. I feel like if he sticks it out with Watford and they get to the EPL again, his ceiling could be star player for a lower to mid table team, be it at Watford or elsewhere. Would just need to prove himself. He has the physical and technical tools. I imagine a career akin to Clint Dempsey, just a different position obviously. I just mean that in terms of importance to his club, not his offensive numbers or anything.

I do believe though he has goals in his game and judging from the interview he feels the same way. I would like to see him notch 4 to 6 league goals this season. He almost scored 2 in this game alone, so if he gets another 1 to 2 before the new year he's halfway there. In my books that would be some nice growth in his first full season abroad.

If by some miracle, Watford get there next year,  it would place him where Koleosho is (though 3 years older with one of those years playing somewhat regularly in a decent league). Be interesting. I still don't like the setup that much at Watford, they have a lot of talent there but I see the players playing a fair bit for themselves.  I was half watching this weekend and they kind of sleptwalked through, went 2 down and then decided we need play together as a team a bit and eventually came back.  That bit is not my favourite for his development.

 Would the situation be better at Udinese?  Honestly not sure, I don't see them play. 

We (Canada) need his physicality, not something I have seen develop a lot.  Similar with a simple sound passing game.  Again I put that down to how he and a lot of his teammates play.  Maybe they can pull it together and maybe their manager can stamp some kind of authority on the team. 

He has his first festive season of English football coming up, 7 games and lots of minutes in December.  Here's hoping he continues to show the brilliance that keeps him in the team and getting minutes.  Lots of chances to learn. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[El Diego]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Talking to guys about the English tiers is like talking to religious fanatics, it's just dogma and fear and brimstone irrationality. This of course is true for most major football cultures, but England is the worst. Sure, the Argentines are unbearable too, and also to the point of laughable, but at least they've won a few WCs and produced some of the greatest footballers the world has ever seen. 

When you see someone who's been captured by a sect and apes the line they've been proselytized to ape, it's natural to hope they might find some form of escape

#FreeKone

How about Spanish fans?

[Meepmeep]

36 minutes ago, El Diego said:

How about Spanish fans?

I think they must all be mechanical engineers because all they ever want to talk about are levers.  

[Kadenge]

Finally watched the replay of Watford v Norwich. Prior to Kone's goal, Watford (inc Kone) were very sloppy with their passing and giving the ball away. That all changed after Kone scored. Their play really picked up and so did Kone, who seemed to want the ball anytime he was in the vicinity and was not shy about asking for it. Someone posted that he plays best when he is confident and that surely applied here. He looked like the most/one of the most skilled players on Watford who have lost Pedro (BHA) and Sarr (Marseille) from last season. His mates were looking to pass to him at every opportunity and he was definitely driving the attack. He could have had a hat trick. In the first half the keeper spilled the ball and Kone had a chance to put it away. Then there was the crossbar. He still needs to tighten up his play a bit. Was a bit casual with some of his passes even in the 2nd half. Under Bilic, he played further back and was doing a stellar job on the defensive side. Perhaps Valerien will start playin him further up as a more advanced mid. I just don't see this current squad, without additions, promoting to the EPL unless they really turn things around soon. We have to keep in mind that Valerien is Kone's 3rd gaffer in less than 1 season. That's  way too much turnover especially for a young player with less than 2 yrs pro exp.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

We have to keep in mind that Valerien is Kone's 3rd gaffer in less than 1 season

It's what they do, only one of their 10 permanent managers has lasted 50 games since 2012.  No manager has got to 100 games under these owners.  

Bring back Sir Elton. 

[InglewoodJack]

7 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

If by some miracle, Watford get there next year,  it would place him where Koleosho is (though 3 years older with one of those years playing somewhat regularly in a decent league). Be interesting. I still don't like the setup that much at Watford, they have a lot of talent there but I see the players playing a fair bit for themselves.  I was half watching this weekend and they kind of sleptwalked through, went 2 down and then decided we need play together as a team a bit and eventually came back.  That bit is not my favourite for his development.

 Would the situation be better at Udinese?  Honestly not sure, I don't see them play. 

We (Canada) need his physicality, not something I have seen develop a lot.  Similar with a simple sound passing game.  Again I put that down to how he and a lot of his teammates play.  Maybe they can pull it together and maybe their manager can stamp some kind of authority on the team. 

He has his first festive season of English football coming up, 7 games and lots of minutes in December.  Here's hoping he continues to show the brilliance that keeps him in the team and getting minutes.  Lots of chances to learn. 

This is what I see every time I watch Watford. I guess that’s what happens when you’re a transitional club meant to send players onto bigger and better things or ease the older ones into retirement; when the results aren’t there, I guess it’s natural to focus on your transfermarkt value and not the score. I think that’s a tough position for Kone to play in because by virtue of being a CM he needs to link the players and if everyone is just doing their own thing, it leaves him with fewer options.

 

Kone looks best when he plays with a bit of selfishness. The goal he scored, he shouldn’t have taken that shot, shouldn’t have dribbled through guys, hell the original clearance into the box, he had a teammate ready to take it, IK runs into him, grabs the ball, then scores. Yet, he did all that and scored because he’s immensely talented. I think playing with that arrogance is going to come with age, because I’ve seen so many games where he practically plays with a slouch and you can tell that he’s second guessing himself.

[Cheeta]

Zen Cheeta

^ As has been mentioned, and it is worth mentioning, there is a certain Championship skillset players risk developing if they want to be successful in the Championship (it's really hard for me to put this properly).  "Risk" might be the wrong word, or maybe not if you gather my meaning.  Having a successful career in the English Championship should be seen as no insult to 99% of professional footballers. 

How about this?  There is a skillset players can develop in the Championship, a skillset players need to develop if they have ambitions beyond the Championship.  And then there are is the skillset players can develop to be successful in the Championship.  For eveyone those two skillsets do no necessarily intersect.  Does that make sense?

Being tested in the Championship, especially in a place like Watford, week in and week out, on and off the pitch, 24/7 has something important to offer Ismeall Kone's development as a footballer that he'll find in few other places around the world.

What an absolute opportunity for the man.       

[dyslexic nam]

Not surprisingly Kone is starting again this morning.  Let’s home we get another strong performance and see that consistency folks are talking about.  

[InglewoodJack]

He had an open look right in front of the net but the ball was coming too fast and he roofed it. He also made a nice tackle to win the ball back for what would eventually become a Watford goal. Looks awesome out there

[Kadenge]

Big 1-2 away win v 6th place Hull. He was subbed out in stoppage time 90+1'. Got a decent rating. Player & club trending in the right direction. 

[narduch]

 

 

[Joe MacCarthy]

Makes me wonder why Canada rarely scores goals like that.  My senility is drawing a blank, the only one that comes to mind is didn't a guy from Serie C or something like that score a long one for us vs a big name opponent.  Who can come up with that one?  There will be a cash prize, ok no prize.

I am going to do some research and see if I can come up with it before somebody posts but I think they'll beat me to it.

Edit: I think I got it, now looking for video or print proof

Houston, we now have video.  C'mon old timers I know you know it.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Joe MacCarthy

[An Observer]

Sandro Grande, I suspect, against Spain

[Joe MacCarthy]

56 minutes ago, An Observer said:

Sandro Grande, I suspect, against Spain

We have a winner
See Canadian Soccer History (and Where Are They Now) Thread

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, An Observer said:

Sandro Grande, I suspect, against Spain

I was there, Santander! Even the Spain fans applauded that goal.

[Joe MacCarthy]

11 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I was there, Santander! Even the Spain fans applauded that goal.

They did, you can hear it on the video.  Now back to our regularly scheduled thread

[PegCityCam]