Theo Corbeanu

[Kent]

@Unnamed Trialist, a very compelling argument. You've convinced me. Best players = best leagues. So I looked up the top 10 players according to the 2023 Ballon d'Or voting

Rankings of leagues.

1. MLS (Messi)
2. England (Haaland)
3. France (Mbappe)
4. Spain (Vinicius)
5. Italy (Osimhen)

You were right. Spain isn't 2nd. It's 4th.

 

[costarg]

8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

2 of the four EPL teams were last in their Champions groups, four Spanish teams won theirs. If EPL is better that doesn't happen. 

If you look at finals over this century the numbers head to head are overwhelming. Europa League is owned by Spanish teams. So the BS argument that Spain is just the top two is just that. 

Regardless, Spain has far more Ballon dOr and the Best winners, which isn't counted in UEFA coefficients. 

The only real story on the coefficient is not EPL superiority, it is that Barça is in an unusual crisis, which could last, and missed the knockout stage in Champions two years straight. Barcelona is also likely to miss the World Club Cup in 2025 because of shitty recent results in Europe.

I won't get pulled into the which league is better.  However I will say I prefer to watch a league where I cannot predict the order of the top 5 in the final standings in September, and that is not La Liga. That alone makes La Liga boring to me, just like Ligue 1.  Nothing personal against the individual leagues or teams, I just like a good title race and unpredictable matches.  That is why I watch and follow soccer.

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

I won't get pulled into the which league is better.  However I will say I prefer to watch a league where I cannot predict the order of the top 5 in the final standings in September, and that is not La Liga. That alone makes La Liga boring to me, just like Ligue 1.  Nothing personal against the individual leagues or teams, I just like a good title race and unpredictable matches.  That is why I watch and follow soccer.

Not sure a league where the same team has one 5 of the last 6 championships is really much more exciting 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

15 minutes ago, costarg said:

I won't get pulled into the which league is better.  However I will say I prefer to watch a league where I cannot predict the order of the top 5 in the final standings in September, and that is not La Liga. That alone makes La Liga boring to me, just like Ligue 1.  Nothing personal against the individual leagues or teams, I just like a good title race and unpredictable matches.  That is why I watch and follow soccer.

I also really don't want to go in these circles against but along the same lines of competitiveness:  England has sent 9 different teams to European Cup/Champions League finals, 6 of them won at least once. Spain, with its acknowledged lead in wins, have sent 4 different teams with 2 of them winning at least once. 

Edited March 5 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[dyslexic nam]

[InglewoodJack]

26 minutes ago, costarg said:

I won't get pulled into the which league is better.  However I will say I prefer to watch a league where I cannot predict the order of the top 5 in the final standings in September, and that is not La Liga. That alone makes La Liga boring to me, just like Ligue 1.  Nothing personal against the individual leagues or teams, I just like a good title race and unpredictable matches.  That is why I watch and follow soccer.

Well, until Christmas, Girona was making a legitimate run for the title, and they’re still in second place. 5th place Athletic club didn’t qualify for Europe last year. Sure these teams aren’t going to win and in all likelihood Barcelona will finish second to Madrid and Girona probably 3-4, but by the same token, Aston Villa, Tottenham and Arsenal don’t have legitimate shots at winning the title which even though Liverpool is in the lead for, will probably go to City.

 

Dont really have a dog in the race- I like watching the beat La Liga teams over the best prem teams but the prem is more entertaining as a whole, but both leagues are only actually competitive on paper. Also, both leagues pale in comparison to the mighty Bundesliga. The People’s League. 

[MauditYvon]

1 minute ago, InglewoodJack said:

Arsenal don’t have legitimate shots at winning the title

Oh wow you missed the last 2 months

[InglewoodJack]

35 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

Oh wow you missed the last 2 months

I mean the last time City lost was December 6th. Do we actually think they’re not going to just run off with it when it’s all said and done?

[El Hombre]

I'm just checking in on this thread for the first time in a week or so and, if I understand correctly, Corbeanu is being linked with Arsenal, Man City, and Barcelona?  Wow.  That's pretty big news!

[MauditYvon]

21 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I mean the last time City lost was December 6th. Do we actually think they’re not going to just run off with it when it’s all said and done?

They still have to play Liverpool and Arsenal, plus a they have (and had with Clubs World Cup) a loaded calendar. Arsenal in their last 7 games 7 wins 31 GF 3 GA.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

@Unnamed Trialist, a very compelling argument. You've convinced me. Best players = best leagues. So I looked up the top 10 players according to the 2023 Ballon d'Or voting

Rankings of leagues.

1. MLS (Messi)
2. England (Haaland)
3. France (Mbappe)
4. Spain (Vinicius)
5. Italy (Osimhen)

You were right. Spain isn't 2nd. It's 4th.
 

Boy did folks steam about Haaland not getting it last year, I guess it was understandable. I think if Norway had qualified for the WC and they had at least gotten a few games, if he'd had a decent game or two, it would have been closer.

I am talking about the last 30 years, as you know. 2024 it looks like Bellingham is in the lead, maybe in there with Salah, then will depend on how Champions goes, Eurocup, and Copa America, a lot left to decide.

(And imagine, I forgot to mention Ronaldinho. Listing the great Liga players totally overshadowing anyone in EPL and I forget Ronaldinho. While folks were fawning over Ryan Giggs, a superb player, Liga fans were watching Ronaldinho)

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I'm just checking in on this thread for the first time in a week or so and, if I understand correctly, Corbeanu is being linked with Arsenal, Man City, and Barcelona?  Wow.  That's pretty big news!

Some are trying to get the feel for the guy scoring in la Liga, even if it was garbage minutes in a blowout. 

Some were even wondering if you could make the argument for Corbeanu to be included in the list for Frisco, people are so crazy at times.

[InglewoodJack]

6 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

They still have to play Liverpool and Arsenal, plus a they have (and had with Clubs World Cup) a loaded calendar. Arsenal in their last 7 games 7 wins 31 GF 3 GA.

 

Yeah, they can definitely win, I was being a bit hyperbolic- you can say the same about Liverpool too, but it seems every year everyone talks about how competitive the premier league is, and then 6 weeks before the season ends, City pulls ahead and then wins their Xth title in a row. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

12 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Yeah, they can definitely win, I was being a bit hyperbolic- you can say the same about Liverpool too, but it seems every year everyone talks about how competitive the premier league is, and then 6 weeks before the season ends, City pulls ahead and then wins their Xth title in a row. 

EPL is very competitive, with those 4-5 teams challenging. There is no team that is clearly a powerhouse over the rest, and no stadium or fanbase dwarfs the rivals.

But I think folks underestimate how incredibly competitive Barcelona and Madrid are, especially Madrid. I don't know if more teams not winning in Spain is a demerit of the Liga or an indication of the voracious nature of the two big clubs. I remember maybe 20 years ago Real Sociedad was ahead with 3 games to play and they just could not deal with it, and Madrid caught them on the second to last day. Two years ago in Champions, Madrid was dead in the water vs. PSG, came back, vs Chelsea, then vs. Manchester City and both times came back with late miraculous goals. Really all three looked ridiculous, they all had Madrid beat and could not hold on. No team in the world has that competitive gene, and only Barça, on the odd occasion, playing monumentally well, rises to beat them. 

[Corazon]

I do hate getting involved in these arguments but I will add my two cents.  First of all, I love both leagues but I have always been a bit more of a fan of La Liga (I'm definitely not a fan that lives or dies by their favourite league).  However in saying that, top to bottom, I don't think there has ever been a league as deep as the Premier league. 

I have had this debate before and I ran an exercise before last year, based on European competitions over the previous 25 seasons in Champions League & Europa League.  I'll add last year as well to make it 26 years now.  For the sake of keeping the post as small as possible, I am only including the top 5 leagues.

During this quarter century timeframe:

Spain in Champions League - 12 titles & 4 runners up (4 different teams)

Spain in Europa League - 12 titles & 3 runners up (7 different teams)

Total - 24 titles & 7 runners up (9 different teams)

England  in Champions League - 7 titles & 9 runners up (6 different teams)

England in Europa League - 4 titles & 6 runners up (6 different teams)

Total - 11 titles & 15 runners up (8 different teams)

Italy in Champions League - 3 titles & 6 runners up (3 different teams)

Italy in Europa League - 2 titles & 3 runners up (4 different teams)

Total - 5 titles & 9 runners up (6 different teams)

Germany in Champions League - 3 titles 5 runners up (3 different teams)

Germany in Europa League - 1 winner & 2 runners up (3 different teams)

Total - 4 titles & 7 runners up (5 different teams)

France in Champions League - 2 runners up (2 different teams)

France in Europa League - 3 runners up (1 team)

Total - 0 titles & 5 runners up (3 different teams)

If you were to remove Real Madrid & Barcelona altogether, yes you would lose all Spain's champions league titles but Spain would still have a total of 12 titles & 7 finalists from 7 different teams in the two competitions.

And on top of that, in finals Spanish teams are 9 and 1 against English teams. And it's not just Madrid & Barcelona as 5 different Spanish teams have won finals against English clubs over that period.  And 5 of 7 finals losses by Spanish teams in both competitions were to other Spanish teams.  Last decade in the Europa League, we've watched numerous knockout stage phases & finals of teams such as Villareal & Sevilla beat Manchester United, Liverpool, etc. with a fraction of the player market value.  We'd then see, English teams come and pick up all those Spanish teams best players just to watch these Spanish teams find new players and beat them again in following years.

Also, since it's inception, only 7 teams have won the Premier League.  During that same timeframe, 5 teams have won La Liga, so it's not as different as many might think.  Both were on 5 winners until Leicester's incredible title run (Liverpool have won since as well).  But I also think it's impressive that Atletico was able to win two Liga titles last decade against two of the greatest club teams of all time.

 

Now, with that all being said, I absolutely do not think La Liga is better than Premier League right now and I doubt it ever will be in the future with the way, football in trending.  Premier League teams, will continue to dominate for years to come. 

FYI - I'm not here for an argument as some of this can be interpreted in many different ways, I just thought I would add some context to the argument.  So from my perspective, yes you could make an argument that La Liga has been better at times.  But in my opinion, it has not been better in recent years and it is not better right now.

 

Edited March 5 by Corazon

[costarg]

4 minutes ago, Corazon said:

I do hate getting involved in these arguments but I will add my two cents.  First of all, I love both leagues but I have always been a bit more of a fan of La Liga.  However in saying that, top to bottom, I don't think there has ever been a league as deep as the Premier league. 

I have had this debate before and I ran an exercise before last year, based on European competitions over the previous 25 seasons in Champions League & Europa League.  I'll add last year as well to make it 26 years now.  For the sake of keeping the post as small as possible, I am only including the top 5 leagues.

During this quarter century timeframe in Champions League

Spain in Champions League - 12 titles & 4 runners up (4 different teams)

Spain in Europa League - 12 titles & 3 runners up (7 different teams)

Total - 24 titles & 7 runners up (9 different teams)

England  in Champions League - 7 titles & 9 runners up (6 different teams)

England in Europa League - 4 titles & 6 runners up (6 different teams)

Total - 11 titles & 15 runners up (8 different teams)

Italy in Champions League - 3 titles & 6 runners up (3 different teams)

Italy in Europa League - 2 titles & 3 runners up (4 different teams)

Total - 5 titles & 9 runners up (6 different teams)

Germany in Champions League - 3 titles 5 runners up (3 different teams)

Germany in Europa League - 1 winner & 2 runners up (3 different teams)

Total - 4 titles & 7 runners up (5 different teams)

France in Champions League - 2 runners up (2 different teams)

France in Europa League - 3 runners up (1 team)

Total - 0 titles & 5 runners up (3 different teams)

And on top of that, in finals Spanish teams are 9 and 1 against English teams.  And 5 of 7 finals losses by Spanish teams in both competitions were to other Spanish teams.  Last decade in the Europa League, we've watched numerous knockout stage phases & finals of teams such as Villareal & Sevilla beat Manchester United, Liverpool, etc. with a fraction of the player market value.  We'd then see, English teams come and pick up all those Spanish teams best players just to watch these Spanish teams find new players and beat them again in following years.

Also, since it's inception, only 7 teams have won the Premier League.  During that same timeframe, 5 teams have won La Liga, so it's not as different as many might think.  Both were on 5 winners until Leicester's incredible title run (Liverpool have won since as well).  But I also think it's impressive that Atletico was able to win two Liga titles last decade against two of the greatest club teams of all time.

 

Now, with that all being said, I absolutely do not think La Liga is better than Premier League right now and I doubt it ever will be in the future with the way, football in trending.  Premier League teams, will continue to dominate for years to come. 

FYI - I'm not here for an argument as some of this can be interpreted in many different ways, I just thought I would add some context to the argument.  So from my perspective, yes you could make an argument that La Liga has been better at times.  But it has not been better in recent years and it is not better right now.

 

Freakin great post.  Really.

If I may, two more points that I think might compliment your post.

1- I believe La Liga may have better coaches and that helps with the results in the tournaments.  I've been meaning to do a deep dive into this, to see if the coaches have a longer leash and tenure compared to EPL to implement their system and bond with players.

2- I feel the higher level of competition week in and out in EPL wears down the teams competing in the tournaments.  The teams finishing 3-7 in EPL just don't have the depth required to compete in EPL as well as the tournaments the following year.

 

[Corazon]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

Freakin great post.  Really.

If I may, two more points that I think might compliment your post.

1- I believe La Liga may have better coaches and that helps with the results in the tournaments.  I've been meaning to do a deep dive into this, to see if the coaches have a longer leash and tenure compared to EPL to implement their system and bond with players.

2- I feel the higher level of competition week in and out in EPL wears down the teams competing in the tournaments.  The teams finishing 3-7 in EPL just don't have the depth required to compete in EPL as well as the tournaments the following year.

 

Absolutely agree wholeheartedly with both of these points.  There are honestly a variety of arguments/data that could be made for or against both leagues (and other leagues) but I do think that the two points you've made are two of the most significant for this argument.

[Obinna]

50 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Some are trying to get the feel for the guy scoring in la Liga, even if it was garbage minutes in a blowout. 

Some were even wondering if you could make the argument for Corbeanu to be included in the list for Frisco, people are so crazy at times.

What is crazy about wanting Corbeanu in the squad for this game? He's playing in the 2nd best league in the world and has now scored. I think it's time to reward him, don't you think? I appreciate Hoilett and he still has a part to play for Canada, but if it were me I would choose Theo over him for this one. If we are chasing the game Corbeanu can generate chances.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

What is crazy about wanting Corbeanu in the squad for this game? He's playing in the 2nd best league in the world and has now scored. I think it's time to reward him, don't you think? I appreciate Hoilett and he still has a part to play for Canada, but if it were me I would choose Theo over him for this one. If we are chasing the game Corbeanu can generate chances.

Someone was saying now careful, we all know we have to take Ugbo, but maybe Theo deserves a call. For me it was one of those proverbial unintended ironies English footie fans love to fete us with.

I personally think he can't start because we can't start 7 attackers, so depending on the game situation he may not get on. Hopefully, in fact, we get ahead, and then it is not Theo but a mid or a defender coming in to help hold the damn result. 

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

What is crazy about wanting Corbeanu in the squad for this game? He's playing in the 2nd best league in the world and has now scored. I think it's time to reward him, don't you think? I appreciate Hoilett and he still has a part to play for Canada, but if it were me I would choose Theo over him for this one. If we are chasing the game Corbeanu can generate chances.

LOL.  Touché  

[Obinna]

46 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

LOL.  Touché  

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

EPL is very competitive, with those 4-5 teams challenging. There is no team that is clearly a powerhouse over the rest, and no stadium or fanbase dwarfs the rivals.

But I think folks underestimate how incredibly competitive Barcelona and Madrid are, especially Madrid. I don't know if more teams not winning in Spain is a demerit of the Liga or an indication of the voracious nature of the two big clubs. 

I don't think anyone is disputing that Real Madrid are the biggest club in the world, currently and historically. And despite their recent struggles, I think Barcelona are arguably the 2nd biggest club. If not, they are undoubtedly in the top 4.

The other two spots in a top 4? Give me any combination of Bayern, an Italian giant, and/or an English giant.

If people want to go with two Italian clubs here, or two English clubs, or a combination, and then put Bayern just outside a top 4, I certainly would understand it. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

9 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I don't think anyone is disputing that Real Madrid are the biggest club in the world, currently and historically. And despite their recent struggles, I think Barcelona are arguably the 2nd biggest club. If not, they are undoubtedly in the top 4.

The other two spots in a top 4? Give me any combination of Bayern, an Italian giant, and/or an English giant.

If people want to go with two Italian clubs here, or two English clubs, or a combination, and then put Bayern just outside a top 4, I certainly would understand it. 

I think the UEFA 10 year club co-efficient gives a decently fair view of it.

If you are just looking at top clubs

1. Real Madrid

Spain - 381.000

 

2. Bayern

Germany - 314.000

 

3. Barcelona

Spain - 271.000

 

4. Man City

England - 246.000

 

5. Juventus

Italy - 244.000

 

https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/tenyears/

 

[MauditYvon]

Hate to say that, but Chelsea is missing. Chelsea and Liverpool should be way ahead of the Turin chokers. 

Edited March 5 by MauditYvon

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

Hate to say that, but Chelsea is missing. Chelsea and Liverpool should be way ahead of the Turin chokers. 

They are 6 and 8.  Remember this is 10 years and both Chelsea and Liverpool were completely out of Europe at times in that span ie. No points. Juve's worst years were the last 2.