The Importance of Alphonso Davies

[Bigandy]

12 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I dunno. He’s a 23 year old superstar with clear offensive abilities and a club that desperately wants to make him the face of their team. It would be wise for Bayern to acquiesce and at least try it, though I don’t think any club would purchase him to play anything other than LB.

Do they desperately? If so, they should have signed an extension by now. I would say they really want to but are not desperate to make him the face of the team. 

The flip side is davies wont get wages, prestige or to a top club at anything other than LB. He has offensive abilities that suit the LB role more than a winger role. I would say Bayern are in an equal or stronger negotiating spot than davies (if you are only talking about leverage for which position he plays). 

[kacbru]

Yeah - I think the crux of the problem is that he could be a world-class winger, but he is a world-class LB.  No one is going to shell out on potential of Davies being among the top-50 wingers in comparison to Davies as a top-5 LB.   

[InglewoodJack]

35 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Do they desperately? If so, they should have signed an extension by now. I would say they really want to but are not desperate to make him the face of the team. 

The flip side is davies wont get wages, prestige or to a top club at anything other than LB. He has offensive abilities that suit the LB role more than a winger role. I would say Bayern are in an equal or stronger negotiating spot than davies (if you are only talking about leverage for which position he plays). 

They were trying to sign him until they fired the entire front office without telling their players. It's been said in the press that Bayern see Davies and Musiala as the future faces of the franchise, and it makes sense; they're their two best young players at a time when much of the old guard is aging out/not getting the job done.

I think Davies has the upper hand here. He can stay at his current club and play the position he was signed to play, or he can go play his current position at any number of elite champions league contenders. What can Bayern offer him other than, come back and play the same position that you played last year while we run it back with relatively the same roster where we almost lost the league, got punked in champions league by the eventual winners who btw also want you to play for them? There is definitely more to negotiations than that, but if Davies wants out, it'll be a lot harder for Bayern to replace him than it will be for Davies to find a club that gets him what he wants.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

My conspiracy theory is that this is a part of his contract negotiation. Surely he has enough pull to make him playing upfront a condition of him staying with Bayern:

 

This is what I posted, that he was signed to be an inverted winger. 

Which means that Barça would never have looked at him for that role as we'd signed Dembele the year before. 

There is too much noise from the Davies camp. He should shut up a bit, you have to be a bit loyal regardless, and this idea you have to chirp and create little tensions, as a negotiating tactic, is rather elementary. 

[InglewoodJack]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

This is what I posted, that he was signed to be an inverted winger. 

Which means that Barça would never have looked at him for that role as we'd signed Dembele the year before. 

There is too much noise from the Davies camp. He should shut up a bit, you have to be a bit loyal regardless, and this idea you have to chirp and create little tensions, as a negotiating tactic, is rather elementary. 

I think- and this is me injecting personal opinion into what I do know- that playing LB for Davies is a lot more interesting for him if he's doing it at a new club where he can win new trophies, better contend in champions league, so on. If he stays at Bayern, he's now their veteran star, he wants certain things which he's earned the right to ask for, and considering *all of the other stuff* going on at bayern, the idea of just doing the same thing all over again next year is probably not super appealing.

 

As for the noise from Davies, the problem is that he does a lot of podcasting and streaming, so we're getting these click bait quotes that might have more context than what the single sentence says. His thing about Barca didn't want him because he's Canadian, I think he followed it up by saying well, that's just what others have told him, he's not sure if it's true.

I dunno- we just had Mbappe publicly tell PSG to go fuck themselves, you have every other star in England who isn't at a champions league club be very open about wanting to get out of their current club, so if Davies wants to flex his power, as a superstar, this is kinda what you have to do. Bayern is one of the biggest sporting orgs in the world- if you don't stand up for yourself, they're going to steamroll you.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I 100% agree that this is mostly nonsense. No top team would look at a player and say they are going to be worth 100million one day but hes canadian so lets not sign him. 

As for the tactic to talk poorly about barca so RM is interested - I dont understand. 
Why would RM see barca rejecting a player and then increase RM desire to sign that player? If anything, that player is a barca reject and you want a guy whos better than Barca, not below.

On the flip side, if you say barca made a mistake and davies is an all star now, why does talking about barca matter. RM already know davies exists. Its not like hearing barca rejected davies 5 years ago will make RM rate davies better and be more likely to sign him.  

Well I've followed the rivalry daily from Barcelona for over thirty years. It goes like that. I know it is odd, but 

1-one way to make yourself attractive to one of FCB or RM is to say you were a fan as a kid, you always loved them, they are your favourite team. Logical.

2-then there is the animosity towards one or the other. Real Madrid gets to a sign a guy that Barça stupidly rejected. FCB and RM never consider the other's rejections as a slight, quite the opposite: it is proof they don't know what they are doing. RM sign a guy who already has cause to have a chip on his shoulder about their main league rival? Perfect. Then there's the fact that he participated in humilliating Barça in the match played in Portugal. Wonderful.

3-but it can all backfire, because if you talk shit one day, or posture one way, a few years down the line you may miss a chance to sign for that other team, because the archives don't lie. And you've dumbly ruled out one of the 6-8 clubs in the world who could pay that salary you are looking for. 

4-only a few players move between Barça and RM. And even fewer remaining legends on both clubs. The one clearest case in the last decades: Laudrup. Because Cruyff pushed him out, and it was clear he had, Barça fans don't hold it against him. Also because he was elegant and charming. Or you can be a minor player, like Albert Celades. Or an odd character who does not give af, like Bernd Schuster. Most of the time if you are a major player, and you switch, you are dead to the other team, you're an apostate and an untouchable who can never walk down the streets ever again in that rival city. (Figo).

[Bigandy]

9 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

They were trying to sign him until they fired the entire front office without telling their players. It's been said in the press that Bayern see Davies and Musiala as the future faces of the franchise, and it makes sense; they're their two best young players at a time when much of the old guard is aging out/not getting the job done.

I think Davies has the upper hand here. He can stay at his current club and play the position he was signed to play, or he can go play his current position at any number of elite champions league contenders. What can Bayern offer him other than, come back and play the same position that you played last year while we run it back with relatively the same roster where we almost lost the league, got punked in champions league by the eventual winners who btw also want you to play for them? There is definitely more to negotiations than that, but if Davies wants out, it'll be a lot harder for Bayern to replace him than it will be for Davies to find a club that gets him what he wants.

I agree with your first paragraph other than a desperate club may have signed him before firing your front office. If youre desperate, you would likely plan the davies signing before the firing of club execs. That makes me think they arent desperate even if they still really like this. 

I dont think Davies has many suitors outside of potentially RM which seems unlikely. Man city has just won a treble by getting rid of fullbacks. Davies would not fit in their system.  Man u, arsenal, newcastle, liverpool are unlikely to splash the cash on a 80mill LB. Chelsea, tottenham are not above BM atm. No italian teams are above BM/ have the cash to spend on a LB. That leaves PSG, RM, Barca. PSG has nuno so no reason to get davies. Barca has balde. RM have alaba, camavinga, nacho and mendy all filling the role. Davies could be needed but his price tag is huge for a guy who isnt amazing defensively. Now add in the fact that RM have signed bellingham, likely a 100mil+ striker plus some depth guys and its unlikely RM can drop 80mil on a LB. 

Dont get me wrong, some of your points about BM weaknesses are very valid. But I just dont see Davies having all the bargaining power. BM could sell davies and sign cancelo the next day.... not very difficult. 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I agree with your first paragraph other than a desperate club may have signed him before firing your front office. If youre desperate, you would likely plan the davies signing before the firing of club execs. That makes me think they arent desperate even if they still really like this. 

I dont think Davies has many suitors outside of potentially RM which seems unlikely. Man city has just won a treble by getting rid of fullbacks. Davies would not fit in their system.  Man u, arsenal, newcastle, liverpool are unlikely to splash the cash on a 80mill LB. Chelsea, tottenham are not above BM atm. No italian teams are above BM/ have the cash to spend on a LB. That leaves PSG, RM, Barca. PSG has nuno so no reason to get davies. Barca has balde. RM have alaba, camavinga, nacho and mendy all filling the role. Davies could be needed but his price tag is huge for a guy who isnt amazing defensively. Now add in the fact that RM have signed bellingham, likely a 100mil+ striker plus some depth guys and its unlikely RM can drop 80mil on a LB. 

Dont get me wrong, some of your points about BM weaknesses are very valid. But I just dont see Davies having all the bargaining power. BM could sell davies and sign cancelo the next day.... not very difficult. 

 

Very good analysis. Which backs the view that to raise your market value you should play closer to the rival goal.

Btw, what you say about Pep doing away with fullbacks and putting CBs in their place: one of the most important yet unheralded shifts in football tactics of this decade.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[lazlo_80]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/article/alphonso-davies-on-barcelona-they-didnt-want-me-because-i-was-canadian/

[Shway]

2 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/article/alphonso-davies-on-barcelona-they-didnt-want-me-because-i-was-canadian/

Even more reason to hate that piece of shit Catalan club......

(triggering UT in 3...2...1...)

[GasPed]

4 hours ago, Shway said:

Even more reason to hate that piece of shit Catalan club......

(triggering UT in 3...2...1...)

😀  But honestly, this is not a new story - it was reported almost immediately after Davies had that highlight reel game against Barca back in 2020 (see link below) - but it's interesting that it's being resurrected now.

https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-barcelona-presidents-response-when-alphonso-davies-was-recommended-20200816

[Unnamed Trialist]

47 minutes ago, GasPed said:

😀  But honestly, this is not a new story - it was reported almost immediately after Davies had that highlight reel game against Barca back in 2020 (see link below) - but it's interesting that it's being resurrected now.

https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-barcelona-presidents-response-when-alphonso-davies-was-recommended-20200816

If Davies wants to get the interest of any club, and make his case at Bayern, he has to have a good Nations League. Meaning make the final and probably win. If we beat any of Mexico or the US and he shows well, then that is the sort of talking and chirping that makes sense now.

Not this assinine grade-school way of garnering leverage, which I suppose his agent thinks is the right thing to do.

Notice Buchanan, who is also looking for a major transfer deal, and David, and Larin, are all shutting up and being discreet. Take a lesson Alphonso.

After all, Davies has made one decent deal in his life, ever. His agent is not Jorge Mendes, let's not kid ourselves. ATG Sports Management, that is a low-end agency folks: Davies, Ayo, Jayden...then it falls off fast. They have no expertise, if they did we would not be getting this amateur hour.

Now if Phonzie thinks he has to go out, hog the ball, hotdog, grab the penalty David or Larin should be taking, because his agent says he has to be bigger than life, I won't be happy. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[GasPed]

So, just found the part where he says he wants to play winger, and it's at about the 46:50 mark in this 1 hour and 20 minutes interview - needless to say, it really doesn't sound at all like a demand from him - he's just dishing on life with two guys, and saying how he ended up at LB.  He doesn't sound angry or irritated about it at all - but it is clear that he would rather play at winger:

 

[Shway]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If Davies wants to get the interest of any club, and make his case at Bayern, he has to have a good Nations League. Meaning make the final and probably win. If we beat any of Mexico or the US and he shows well, then that is the sort of talking and chirping that makes sense now.

Not this assinine grade-school way of garnering leverage, which I suppose his agent thinks is the right thing to do.

Notice Buchanan, who is also looking for a major transfer deal, and David, and Larin, are all shutting up and being discreet. Take a lesson Alphonso.

After all, Davies has made one decent deal in his life, ever. His agent is not Jorge Mendes, let's not kid ourselves. ATG Sports Management, that is a low-end agency folks: Davies, Ayo, Jayden...then it falls off fast. They have no expertise, if they did we would not be getting this amateur hour.

Now if Phonzie thinks he has to go out, hog the ball, hotdog, grab the penalty David or Larin should be taking, because his agent says he has to be bigger than life, I won't be happy. 

There it is. 
Full blown triggered. 🤣

[Unnamed Trialist]

27 minutes ago, Shway said:

There it is. 
Full blown triggered. 🤣

You're bored brother. Just follow the arguments, no one cares about anything else.

I insist: he has a very weak agency and agent, and they are making all these off the cuff statements. Nitpicking, talking BS. He has a legacy at Bayern he is willing to throw away because of bad advice.  The worst being the agent doing a 10 minute interview with Fabrizio saying absolutely nothing. And looking foolish, because no serious agent does that.

The only things that matters: he wants to play wing, but no one will sign him as a wing because he is totally unproven at a high level as a wing. I personally think it is his best place to be, inverted on the right, and that he could "learn" fast, and that it would give him higher market value. 

Everything else is stupid, and the whole business of Barça, well I debunked that easily a few days ago, it is amateur hour.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Kent]

16 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Everything else is stupid, and the whole business of Barça, well I debunked that easily a few days ago, it is amateur hour.

This was your argument.

On 6/12/2023 at 9:51 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

But it is odd that he'd say that, at that time, for one clear reason: we signed Ballou Tabla in January 2018. Precisely when Davies was negotiating to go to Bayern. Sure, the cost and committment would have been different, but I don't think there was a per se discrimination against a certain nationality.

Tabla was signed in January 2018, and Davies was signed by Bayern in January 2019. Could it not be possible that Tabla didn't live up to what Bartomeu expected, and thus gave him a bad feeling about signing another hyped up young Canadian? It seems plausible to me, at least plausible enough that you using the term "debunked" is quite a stretch.

[El Hombre]

31 minutes ago, Kent said:

This was your argument.

Tabla was signed in January 2018, and Davies was signed by Bayern in January 2019. Could it not be possible that Tabla didn't live up to what Bartomeu expected, and thus gave him a bad feeling about signing another hyped up young Canadian? It seems plausible to me, at least plausible enough that you using the term "debunked" is quite a stretch.

Oh @Kent now you've done it.  Strap in for 1,500 words about the inner workings of Barcelona in the finest detail with a sprinkling of how bad Bayern are (in general).  If you're lucky it'll somehow get tied to how English lower leagues are actually overrated.

[Kent]

25 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Oh @Kent now you've done it.  Strap in for 1,500 words about the inner workings of Barcelona in the finest detail with a sprinkling of how bad Bayern are (in general).  If you're lucky it'll somehow get tied to how English lower leagues are actually overrated.

Plus I'm sure I'll get some insults thrown my way, especially for not respecting his athoritay when it comes to Barcelona/Spanish soccer.

[Bison44]

We dont talk about Spain, we dont talk about players in Spain, we dont talk about things that are comparable to spain.  

 

[Fresh Prince of MTL]

Was that shot Davies audition to play winger at Bayern?

[Unnamed Trialist]

19 hours ago, Kent said:

This was your argument.

Tabla was signed in January 2018, and Davies was signed by Bayern in January 2019. Could it not be possible that Tabla didn't live up to what Bartomeu expected, and thus gave him a bad feeling about signing another hyped up young Canadian? It seems plausible to me, at least plausible enough that you using the term "debunked" is quite a stretch.

Incorrect, I thought we were past this Kent. But since you insist I'll humour you.

Tabla was doing fine, he was starting with the B team while a teenager, he played Spanish 2nd division with the B, he got lots of minutes and was playing beside the top Barça prospects. He trained with the first team. He was one of the few B players who went on the US tour in summer of 2018, he played with the first team preseason. So totally debunked, sorry.

The whole argument was that Bartomeu would not sign Davies because he was Canadian is shot down by the fact that we had just signed a Canadian, and also of African origin, so you can't even add that as a possible reason. Barça only has 4-5 foreign players on the B, normally, it is an exclusive club. Tabla was one of them. 

But even if you were arguing we were not going to sign a Canadian for the first team at 15-20 million, that it was the price: as I argued, we were not looking for a LB to replace Alba 6 years ago, a guy who has better attacking numbers than Davies still, and is still on the Spanish national team. And we were not looking for an inverted winger because we'd signed ambidextrous Dembele who is one of the few who can match Davies for electric pace. And was more proven in Europe.

Davies is playing the cards his agent gave him, trying to ingratiate himself to Real Madrid or whoever and put the pressure on Bayern. He did a good job with the goal making his case for a more attacking role.

I don't get why @Bison44 @Kent and @El Hombre are so uncomfortable with the facts. I don't mind if Davies says whatever he wants, but he himself admitted he had heard that from a third party.

Barça is one of the clubs that historically has had the greatest diversity of foreign players, of all races, going back to the 1920s and 30s even, we had black and
Asian players when there was effective apartheid in England. Our diversity is unarguable. It also happens to be the club with the strongest support for women's football in the world. There are other things FCB does badly, but not signing Canadians is not one of them guys.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Barça is one of the clubs that historically has had the greatest diversity of foreign players, of all races, going back to the 1920s and 30s even, we had black and
Asian players when there was effective apartheid in England. Our diversity is unarguable.

You make it very arguable by telling porkies again, it appears.  

I sincerely apologise if you can give me names of these 20s and 30s players but maybe we are talking about isolated players like Andrew Watson (one parent from Guyana, one from Scotland) who played in London in the 1880s.

The first player of African descent I can find at Barcelona is Mendonça - 1967 - five years after John Charles first played for West Ham of all places.  

 

Edit: I do apologise for following your tangent.  No one, including Davies or his camp, ever said anything about Barca not signing him because of his descen,  just his county - implying football training background.  If I was less experienced in debating, I would wonder why you brought race up at all. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[InglewoodJack]

Played as close to a perfect game as possible last night. This is what a super star is supposed to do- come in the game, be better than everyone else, make a great play, move on. JD deserved MOTM but it was clear that the tide drastically shifted the second Davies came in. What a player. Barca could really use a winger like that.

Edited June 16, 2023 by InglewoodJack

[InglewoodJack]

26 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

You make it very arguable by telling porkies again, it appears.  

I sincerely apologise if you can give me names of these 20s and 30s players but maybe we are talking about isolated players like Andrew Watson (one parent for Guyana, one from Scotland) who played in London in the 1880s.

The first player of African descent I can find at Barcelona is Mendonça - 1967 - five years after John Charles first played for West Ham of all places.  

Not England specifically, but poet Gil Scot Heron's father Gil Heron played for Celtic in 1951 and spent about 4 years playing in Scotland too.

[Unnamed Trialist]

33 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

You make it very arguable by telling porkies again, it appears.  

I sincerely apologise if you can give me names of these 20s and 30s players but maybe we are talking about isolated players like Andrew Watson (one parent for Guyana, one from Scotland) who played in London in the 1880s.

The first player of African descent I can find at Barcelona is Mendonça - 1967 - five years after John Charles first played for West Ham of all places.  

If you are wanting me to point to players in Spain before the sport even existed, you are reaching. In any case, there is no basis to say FCB does not sign players because of their nationality.

As for England, the most racist and sexist fans by far of any I have seen visiting here (along with Rangers fans), and at home there is this, which is apartheid: 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/06/graham-taylor-told-not-pick-too-many-black-players-fa-england

Also recall that famous FA video honouring one of their anniversaries, like 20 years ago, and there was not a single non-white player honoured.