The Importance of Alphonso Davies

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I can see how people might prefer Eustaquio (or perhaps David or Buchanan) over Davies but there's hardly a clear-cut choice. I think it's hard to argue against the fact that Davies is a better player on a better team. Eustaquio had the more meaningful contributions for Canada, but those were mostly in January and March. At Qatar, Davies was frustrating for some (largely down to being played out of position by Herdman) but he did play all 3 matches and score the goal. Eustaquio was a shadow of himself due to injury. 

Without a list of objective criteria to look at, we'll always have these little arguments. Which is the whole point of having these awards: a reason to talk about the team and the players at the end of each year.

Eustaquio had the game of his life against Belgium. The rest I agree with, but not that.

Even against Croatia he was pretty good. Obviously though his case is diminished by missing the Morocco game, but we were already elminiated and it's not as if Davies was outstanding against Morocco.

[jonovision]

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Eustaquio had the game of his life against Belgium. The rest I agree with, but not that.

Even against Croatia he was pretty good. Obviously though his case is diminished by missing the Morocco game, but we were already elminiated and it's not as if Davies was outstanding against Morocco.

We were over-run in midfield in the first half vs Croatia. Atiba was a big part of that but so was Eustaquio. He also ran out of gas after 60 minutes vs Belgium.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, jonovision said:

We were over-run in midfield in the first half vs Croatia. Atiba was a big part of that but so was Eustaquio. He also ran out of gas after 60 minutes vs Belgium.

Sure, but he also never put a foot wrong against Belgium. Won some excellent duals. Nut megged Kevin Dr Bruyne, and was singled out for his good performance in at least 1 publication I read. It was arguably the best game I have ever seen him play for us.

Fair enough against Croatia, but despite the tactical set up (which I hardly blame Eustaquio for) we were still in the game with him on the field. When he came out at half the game got away from us. If we had another midfielder at his level to bring off the bench perhaps we would have been in the match for longer, even with that tactical set up. We don't have another Eustaquio though, unfortunately.

We (kind of) have another Davies. His name is Tajon Buchanan. 

None of this is to say Davies was an underserving choice by the way. Just wasn't my choice.

[Kadenge]

2 hours ago, Floortom said:

Is this a rhetorical question or are you seriously asking the question ?

A bit of both; in the context of comparing Davies'/David's performances for Bayern/Lille vs Staq's for Porto, Davies is clearly playing at the highest level. Staq has raised his play for Porto this season, done very well in CL and locked down a starting position. Could he play in a top 4 league with a top 4/5 team??? As with David, I don't believe JH has the formation/system set up to max D&D's skillsets yet, whereas Staq's role for Canada is more similar to how he plays for Porto...perhaps a bit less attacking for Canada. This may explain why his performances for the CMNT have looked better to some.

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

A bit of both; in the context of comparing Davies'/David's performances for Bayern/Lille vs Staq's for Porto, Davies is clearly playing at the highest level. Staq has raised his play for Porto this season, done very well in CL and locked down a starting position. Could he play in a top 4 league with a top 4/5 team??? As with David, I don't believe JH has the formation/system set up to max D&D's skillsets yet, whereas Staq's role for Canada is more similar to how he plays for Porto...perhaps a bit less attacking for Canada. This may explain why his performances for the CMNT have looked better to some.

Good points here.

I would like to see Davies play more LWB for Canada. His best game was against Belgium when he was playing in that position. Did he play there against Croatia? I cannot recall off-hand and I feel like he was further up the field in that match.

Ultimately, Davies is going to move around based on the opponent, which I don't mind as long as we get it right. I don't think anyone on the planet can contain Davies when he's running at opponents from deep, but up front he drops from unstoppable to just a "pain in the ass". The best teams in the world can deal with a pain in the ass.

If I had to generalize, I would say that within our region we want him high up the field. Against the best teams in the world, he should play LWB. That's my takeaway from the WC.

[Floortom]

14 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

A bit of both; in the context of comparing Davies'/David's performances for Bayern/Lille vs Staq's for Porto, Davies is clearly playing at the highest level. Staq has raised his play for Porto this season, done very well in CL and locked down a starting position. Could he play in a top 4 league with a top 4/5 team??? As with David, I don't believe JH has the formation/system set up to max D&D's skillsets yet, whereas Staq's role for Canada is more similar to how he plays for Porto...perhaps a bit less attacking for Canada. This may explain why his performances for the CMNT have looked better to some.

There is no way that Staq would be a locked in starter (or a starter at all tbh) for Bayern. You think he's going to supplant Kimmich or Goretzka???

[Kadenge]

47 minutes ago, Floortom said:

There is no way that Staq would be a locked in starter (or a starter at all tbh) for Bayern. You think he's going to supplant Kimmich or Goretzka???

I agree, and that's the rhetorical part of my question.  But a lot of Porto fans didn't think he had the skillset to start for Porto, especially the attacking/offensive skills to go along with the defensive side to his game. He's  moved his game up a level or two this season for club. Perhaps there is more to come?

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

I agree, and that's the rhetorical part of my question.  But a lot of Porto fans didn't think he had the skillset to start for Porto, especially the attacking/offensive skills to go along with the defensive side to his game. He's  moved his game up a level or two this season for club. Perhaps there is more to come?

I feel like this is the case, though I am not brave/foolish enough to say he'd take the spot of Kimmich, for instance. That guy is simply too proven and too immersed at Bayern to ever dream of such a thing, and he's just a year older than Eustaquio.

I do think, however, he could get into a top side and cement himself. He did if for Porto, after all. Maybe there is another step up from that, like you suggest. 

I look at the career path of Hector Hererra and consider Atletico, for example. Eustaquio is hard-nosed which could fit the culture of Atletico, but he also has the technique, vision and speed of thought to play in La Liga. Sevilla is another club who could possibly snap him up - though I am not sure that is much of a step up from Porto, honestly. 

I can also see teams like Inter, AC Milan, or possibly Napoli (who were interested in him previously - according to some reports). 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Obinna

[Free kick]

On 12/22/2022 at 3:33 PM, phresh said:

Named Canada Soccer player of the year on the men's side.

https://www.tsn.ca/alphonso-davies-wins-canada-soccer-player-of-the-year-bayern-munich-fifa-world-cup-2022-qatar-1.1896875

 

what I don't like about that selection is that its lazy a pick.   Its that it is as if the voters (or selectors) didn't even bother to watch the game(s) this year. or even reflect on their decisions. They just picked the most popular player.   

Edited December 24, 2022 by Free kick

[narduch]

I think an argument can be made that Eustaquio didn't do enough earlier in the year. A lot of people are picking him due to recency bias.

He didn't exactly play a lot when we first got to Porto in January.

That being said I would still lean towards choosing him.

[jonovision]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

Fair enough against Croatia, but despite the tactical set up (which I hardly blame Eustaquio for) we were still in the game with him on the field. When he came out at half the game got away from us. 

Maybe we watched different matches. Aside from the first 10-15 minutes, we were much better in the second half vs Croatia than in the first.

[narduch]

 

 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

 

 

I wouldn't hate it.

[PegCityCam]

4 hours ago, Kadenge said:

I agree, and that's the rhetorical part of my question.  But a lot of Porto fans didn't think he had the skillset to start for Porto, especially the attacking/offensive skills to go along with the defensive side to his game. He's  moved his game up a level or two this season for club. Perhaps there is more to come?

I don't think Porto will be his final step by any means and believe he would staq up quite nicely against most Bundesliga comp...see what I did there?😉

[Obinna]

15 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

I don't think Porto will be his final step by any means and believe he would staq up quite nicely against most Bundesliga comp...see what I did there?😉

I think Porto would routinely be a top half Bundesliga club and would finish in the top 4 more often than not.

Bayern are obviously on another level, and Dortmund are arguably bigger and better than Porto, but none of the rest are clearly bigger and better.

There may be an argument for RB Leipzig now a days, and possibly Bayer Leverkusen is at "Porto" level. 

For that reason, I think Steph could play out the rest of his career at Porto and still be considered a very high-level player. I do think he can take another step up, but I don't necessarily think he needs to. 

[PegCityCam]

52 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think Porto would routinely be a top half Bundesliga club and would finish in the top 4 more often than not.

Bayern are obviously on another level, and Dortmund are arguably bigger and better than Porto, but none of the rest are clearly bigger and better.

There may be an argument for RB Leipzig now a days, and possibly Bayer Leverkusen is at "Porto" level. 

For that reason, I think Steph could play out the rest of his career at Porto and still be considered a very high-level player. I do think he can take another step up, but I don't necessarily think he needs to. 

4 German clubs in the CL knockouts this year so if Porto can make it to the round of 8 we could quite possibly put your "top 4" theory to the test! Also don't think he needs to take another step but believe it's only a matter of time until he'll have his chance to.

Edited December 24, 2022 by PegCityCam

[BearcatSA]

19 hours ago, jonovision said:

Maybe we watched different matches. Aside from the first 10-15 minutes, we were much better in the second half vs Croatia than in the first.

I would agree.  Except for Kone not tracking Modric leading to that Kramaric chance and good save by Borjan, up until the third goal, the three man midfield set up did a better job then what happened in the first half, including helping to generate two good shots by Osorio and David. And in the final phase prior to the stoppage time fourth goal, we were pressing with our attack minded subs. asking questions of the Croatian defence.

(It's always good to re-watch matches; like re-reading a novel, you pick up stuff you miss the first time around.)

Edited December 24, 2022 by BearcatSA

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

My sister just sent me a video she took at the Oilers game where he dropped the puck.

Her husband was a semi-pro hockey player and I consider the new interest in Davies that people like them have a little victory for Canadian soccer.

[CCrTFC]

 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Funny about that As headline, because in the Barcelona sport dailies they talk about Madrid and signings, and he is not mentioned once. They talk about Barça needing outside backs too, never mentioned.

Marca has a cover on Borja Iglesias from Betis going to At Madrid, then a small headline on an unknown fullback from Rayo, Fran Garcia,  that Madrid may be interested in, for 5 million, a long way away from Davies.

Madrid has to look at a few positions on the field and need to do it quickly. They still need cover for Benzema, which is why I tout David. They need to think about replacements for both Modric and Kroos, and then remember that Casemiro left last summer, so there's another; perhaps Tchouameni is already one of those. And finally, quite true, they are not altogether happy with Ferland Mendy, may sell him on and need to cover for him. So IMO, Davies would be on the third tier of the shopping list. And how are you going to spend first tier money on a third tier necessity?

A key point in the article is that they'd start talking in 2024 as his contract ends in 2025 which forces BM's hand a bit more. Of course Bayern could offer him a renewal before, to try to retain him, and he may accept given there'd be a salary increase. Or he'd hold out thinking it was time for a change, which after 6 years there it could be. As long as the offers were coming from clubs that could rival or improve the Bayern salary structure.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Free kick]

Top 10 Speeds recorded at the WC 

1	. Kamal-Deen Sulemana (Gha)	35.7 km/hr	vs Uru
2	. Alphonzo Davies (Can)	35.6 km/hr	vs Cro
3	. Nico Williams (Esp)	35.6 km/hr	vs Ger
4	. David Raum (Ger)	35.5 km/hr	vs Esp
5.	Daniel James (Wal)	35.4 km/hr	vs Irn
6	. Antonee Robinson (US)	35.4 km/hr	vs Wal
7	. Achraf Hakimi Mouh (Mor)	35.3 km/hr	vs Fra
8.	Ismalia Sarr (Sen)	35.3 km/hr	vs Ned
9.	Kylian Mbappe (Fra)	35.2 km/hr	vs Den
10.	Nemanja Radonjic (Srb)	35.2 km/hr	vs Bra

Mbappe reportedly reached a Top 10 speed of 37 km/hr at WC2018

  source:

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Free kick

[Free kick]

Here is another list from a different source.   Slightly different results

 

Kamaldeen Sulemana (Ghana) - 22.18 mph

Nico Williams (Spain) - 22.12 mph

David Raum (Germany) - 22.00 mph

Antoine Robinson (United States) - 21.99 mph

Daniel James (Wales) - 21.99 mph

Achraf Hakimi (Morocco) - 21.93 mph

Ismaila Sarr (Senegal) - 21.93 mph

Kylian Mbappé (France) - 21.87 mph

Nemanja Radonjic (Serbia) - 21.87 mph

Tajon Buchanan (Canada) - 21.87 mph

Fastest players of World Cup 2022 revealed, France's Kylian Mbappe not even in top-5 | Football News (republicworld.com)

Edited December 27, 2022 by Free kick

[GasPed]

28 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Top 10 Speeds recorded at the WC 

1	. Kamal-Deen Sulemana (Gha)	35.7 km/hr	vs Uru
2	. Alphonzo Davies (Can)	35.6 km/hr	vs Cro
3	. Nico Williams (Esp)	35.6 km/hr	vs Ger
4	. David Raum (Ger)	35.5 km/hr	vs Esp
5.	Daniel James (Wal)	35.4 km/hr	vs Irn
6	. Antonee Robinson (US)	35.4 km/hr	vs Wal
7	. Achraf Hakimi Mouh (Mor)	35.3 km/hr	vs Fra
8.	Ismalia Sarr (Sen)	35.3 km/hr	vs Ned
9.	Kylian Mbappe (Fra)	35.2 km/hr	vs Den
10.	Nemanja Radonjic (Srb)	35.2 km/hr	vs Bra

Mbappe reportedly reached a Top 10 speed of 37 km/hr at WC2018

  source:

 

Was just going to say that other lists show Tajon tied with Mbappe and Radonjic at 35.2 km/h.  Also that last list is clearly wrong with no Phonzie in it…

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, GasPed said:

Was just going to say that other lists show Tajon tied with Mbappe and Radonjic at 35.2 km/h.  Also that last list is clearly wrong with no Phonzie in it…

Yes, it has to be wrong.  Either way, whichever list you go by, Canada has two of the players who are amongst the fastest in the world playing on the wings.   Ideally suited for direct play and/or counter attacking play and formations.   We shouldn't expect to see any tiki taka soccer for a very long time. 

Edit.:  Here is a more detailed and longer list

Fastest players World Cup 2022: Davies, Mbappé and who else? (the18.com)

Edited December 27, 2022 by Free kick

[Free kick]

Another thing,  with the advent of VAR,  this should favor players and teams that have a lot pace.  And, by extension, more direct play.   Speed is the best way to beat the offside traps.  Mbappe, to name one, has feasted on beating the offside traps.  You can now rely on more correct offside calls due to VAR.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Free kick