Jonathan David

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

Interesting metrics you are presenting, but my go to would be the UEFA member association coefficient. It used to be La Liga, but England is firmly on top at the moment, garnering more points than Spain in 4 of the last 5 years.

Edit: I am just noticing that one of the years are still in progress, so that might not be confirmed yet (I'm not bothering to look up who is still remaining in those competitions).

Another good metric. If a metric is valid, let it fly. The coefficient is not good enough to see EPL teams beat Liga teams in the crunch, though it does point to a possible shift. Though I see if you include European Super Cups the stats help them, remember how Chelsea beat Villareal in that match.

EPL hasn't had a Balloon d'Or since Owen, before that was pre EPL Keegan. I've never seen a EPL keeper who was consistently top, nor a defender. Scholes as a mid, strikers I liked were Shearer or even, on talent, Berbatov. But I appreciate a lot of EPL fans only watched the occasional Messi highlight reel. Most agree that watching RM or Barça at peak in this century was far better football than the best of EPL. Only hype alters that view.

English players are inferior to Spanish based on international competition, World Cups, Euros. But if u17 and u20 results are a metric, English players are closing the gap and it could pan out in years to come. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

11 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The English aren't good enough to manage the clubs in their own league, it is the only league in the world like that, excepting the joke leagues. So of course, you are not going to expect fans are smart enough to have a very good grasp of what's going on either. The only thing I like about EPL fans is how they trash-talk rival teams, which keeps everyone a bit more straight up.

This is appears to be a case of having an opinion of about something and trying to massage the facts into supporting it.  

A far more rational conclusion would be that the Premiere League overall pays far more than other leagues, so managers from all over the world are attracted to it. There are not even artificial home-grown rules like there are with players.

Simple. 

Of course some English football supporters have a myopic view of the football world but it is not different to me than some Canadians not seeing football/soccer as even part of the sporting world.  It is what they are presented with. 

People have limited time in their lives, we on here, I think, spend time following football from a number of different leagues because we care about a lot of internationally based players.  That is not the case with many football and sports fans in general.

Edited April 17, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

Interesting metrics you are presenting, but my go to would be the UEFA member association coefficient. It used to be La Liga, but England is firmly on top at the moment, garnering more points than Spain in 4 of the last 5 years.

Edit: I am just noticing that one of the years are still in progress, so that might not be confirmed yet (I'm not bothering to look up who is still remaining in those competitions).

The coefficient is a great measure of how the overall top third of the Premier League is generally better than the top third of other top leagues.  And better than the elite teams in less successful leagues.  It is more useful than judging an entire league on the achievements of a handful of elite players or even a couple teams but it is limited. 

https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2023

The official site tells you how many teams are left in Europe this season. Italian teams are having an exceptional year with 6/7 in quarterfinal spots, as are Belgian ones with 3/5.  England is probably where you think it should be with 4 of 7 remaining, though 2 of those teams (Chelsea and West Ham) are having poor years in comparison to preceding ones.

Spain and Germany are doing relatively poorly given their positions with only two teams left.

So the board will move a bit. But bits of unpredictability is part of why we watch football, right?

[Unnamed Trialist]

This topic came up because someone observed how all these EPL fans were shitting on David because of the Fabrizio tweet. But it's chronic. When Barça beat Manchester United successive Champions League finals, 09 and 2011, we were fed how Carrick was their answer to our midfield and English pundits and fans claimed he'd break us down. In 2009 they left Scholes on the bench and everyone here was like, the most talented players sits for Carrick. Anderson (?) beside Carrick, against Xavi and Iniesta.

So yes, it's a matter of taste and very subjective, subjectively that's having your taste up your ass 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

This topic came up because someone observed how all these EPL fans were shitting on David because of the Fabrizio tweet. But it's chronic. When Barça beat Manchester United successive Champions League finals, 09 and 2011, we were fed how Carrick was their answer to our midfield and English pundits and fans claimed he'd break us down. In 2009 they left Scholes on the bench and everyone here was like, the most talented players sits for Carrick. Anderson (?) beside Carrick, against Xavi and Iniesta.

So yes, it's a matter of taste and very subjective, subjectively that's having your taste up your ass 

With respect to David and with some hope of moving on, I think real point is judging a group of football supporters by their "representatives" on Twitter or their predecessors in the junk sport press, is being as silly as the silly things you read on Twitter or on the back pages 15 years ago.

[Ivan]

15 hours ago, gigi riva said:

The Leaf Fans of Soccer

Da Fuck?

[Kent]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Another good metric. If a metric is valid, let it fly. The coefficient is not good enough to see EPL teams beat Liga teams in the crunch, though it does point to a possible shift. Though I see if you include European Super Cups the stats help them, remember how Chelsea beat Villareal in that match.

I just looked up how English and Spanish teams have done head to head over the last 5 seasons (including this one). I didn't filter out any results which you may be inferring by saying "in the crunch" (not sure if you are just talking about knockout round games perhaps?) but I checked every result.

In Champions League, England has won 18, Spain has won 16, and there have been 8 draws.
In Europa League, England has won 11, Spain has won 7, and there have been 4 draws.
Spanish and English teams haven't yet gone head to head in the Conference League.

So EPL teams have gotten the edge in head to head matchups in recent years. I don't have a horse in this race, I don't really follow either league. I do agree with you that historically La Liga hasn't gotten the credit they deserve relative to the EPL. But I think there has been a shift in the last few years.

[Kadenge]

For those that didn't watch the game, the pass to spring Ismaily down the left flank, which resulted in Cabella's game winning goal,  was a  beauty. As @Snowcrashmentioned his play making ability is right up there with his goal scoring. While he has shown the ability to adapt his game (Gent to Lille) he would really excel on a  team where there is a lot of movement and positional interchange btw the forwards and attacking mids

Edited April 17, 2023 by Kadenge

[jhoops__]

David has elite instincts man.  He’s such a clever player in and around the box.   He’s been so much fun to watch this season.

[Unnamed Trialist]

57 minutes ago, Kent said:

I just looked up how English and Spanish teams have done head to head over the last 5 seasons (including this one). I didn't filter out any results which you may be inferring by saying "in the crunch" (not sure if you are just talking about knockout round games perhaps?) but I checked every result.

In Champions League, England has won 18, Spain has won 16, and there have been 8 draws.
In Europa League, England has won 11, Spain has won 7, and there have been 4 draws.
Spanish and English teams haven't yet gone head to head in the Conference League.

So EPL teams have gotten the edge in head to head matchups in recent years. I don't have a horse in this race, I don't really follow either league. I do agree with you that historically La Liga hasn't gotten the credit they deserve relative to the EPL. But I think there has been a shift in the last few years.

Slight edge in all matches, true. The reason I value that less is because in a group stage you can qualify early and not compete all matches, it used to be a win and a loss with goal difference put you through in knockout rounds. Tournament play the same: the World Champions had a losing record to Asian teams last World Cup.

In any case as I'm no fan of Madrid and not much of Sevilla, I'd be thrilled to see those stats shift in favour of EPL teams in upcoming weeks.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

For those that didn't watch the game, the pass to spring Ismaily down the left flank, which resulted in Cabella's game winning goal,  was a  beauty. As @Snowcrashmentioned his play making ability is right up there with his goal scoring. While he has shown the ability to adapt his game (Gent to Lille) he would really excel on a  team where there is a lot of movement and positional interchange btw the forwards and attacking mids

I would like to see us play 3-5-1-1 with him just behind Larin against any kind of decent opposition.  

Harsh on players like Adekugbe, Millar etc. and maybe lacking depth for the three in central midfield but I think that set up accentuates the above mentioned strengths that David has (and a lot of other players' as well) 

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

With respect to David and with some hope of moving on, I think real point is judging a group of football supporters by their "representatives" on Twitter or their predecessors in the junk sport press, is being as silly as the silly things you read on Twitter or on the back pages 15 years ago.

I just think only caring about the top 4 teams in England- and I'll add the two Spanish giants as well- is a deeply incurious way to engage with soccer and takes away one of the most interesting aspects of the game which is that there are good leagues in countless countries producing great talent. Even though we do, I don't think people need to care about every single top 5 league and beyond, but at least acknowledge or understand the quality of the leagues that other players come from. I mean, on one hand, these are supporters of teams who will pay over 100M for a player coming out of Portugal or Germany, but will turn around and tell you that those leagues are all garbage.

To bring it back to David, I think that the best club game I've watched all season by far was the PSG x Lille game where Messi won it late for PSG with that free kick. There's a massive number of people who would much rather watch Arsenal x Manchester City end 0-0 than that game because France is for farmers, every game is clearly Messi sleepwalking into a hat trick, etc. They're well within their rights not to watch, but don't come and say JD is only worth 20M or that Mbappe isn't all that because he isn't in England yet or whatever.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

56 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I just think only caring about the top 4 teams in England- and I'll add the two Spanish giants as well- is a deeply incurious way to engage with soccer and takes away one of the most interesting aspects of the game which is that there are good leagues in countless countries producing great talent. Even though we do, I don't think people need to care about every single top 5 league and beyond, but at least acknowledge or understand the quality of the leagues that other players come from. I mean, on one hand, these are supporters of teams who will pay over 100M for a player coming out of Portugal or Germany, but will turn around and tell you that those leagues are all garbage.

To bring it back to David, I think that the best club game I've watched all season by far was the PSG x Lille game where Messi won it late for PSG with that free kick. There's a massive number of people who would much rather watch Arsenal x Manchester City end 0-0 than that game because France is for farmers, every game is clearly Messi sleepwalking into a hat trick, etc. They're well within their rights not to watch, but don't come and say JD is only worth 20M or that Mbappe isn't all that because he isn't in England yet or whatever.

For my perspective at least, I just feel like you are putting a lot preferences in a lot of people's heads. I just don't know the people you talk about but I only go on Twitter for the news, not the opinions. And then that's not really them is it, it is what they choose to present on Twitter.  People can say what they want, hating them for it seems strange to me. 

Are there people who really care about 4 teams in England? I care about 1 team in the Premier League and I actively dislike a few teams and then I like to watch good football.  Put those together and a lot of games have interest to me. 

I have watched a fair number of French League games in the last couple years.  I do not claim to be an expert but on the whole, the level is higher in the Premier League, so if I were to chose a game just to watch with no horse in the race, it would be the latter.  

I think your point about choosing to watching a 0-0 is off.  First, a good portion of the beauty of sport is that you don't know the result when you start watching.  Only the very dedicated watch replays back if they know the score.  So you go in thinking: Arsenal and Man City play some very nice football at times and I have a decent chance of a good game.  For instance, their last game was 1-3 with a very nice DeBruyne chip and really nice dummy by Gundogan on the Grealish goal and some drama. No one wants a game to end 0-0 unless you are chasing or trailing both, maybe.  I guess I just can't agree with that point at all. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Bigandy]

13 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You can't just say it, you have to prove it factually.

Compare Golden Ball winners. Players in top World Cup teams. Head to head finals in Europe, three totally different stats.

La Liga has had the best players in the world for almost thirty years, Golden Balls, Golden Boots. Podiums for the Golden Ball. And that is even when the EPL has far more press, propaganda, media hype, so in spite of all that, those who vote for the best players in the world vote overwhelmingly for La Liga players. 

No player in EPL until Haaland, who may win it, was ever at the level of Romario, Stoichkov, Rivaldo, Figo, Zidane, Cristiano, Messi, the list goes on. La Liga kills EPL in great players.

But take another argument, more recent, factual, not your bogus fanboy stuff. Take the final four teams in the World Cup, England and Spain not amongst them. Which league had the most players on those four teams, nice cross section? La Liga by far, and that hasn't changed. EPL is not even a clear second. I have the stats but you won't want to hear them. 

All parameters say the best players are in La Liga. And the best teams. Not just the top sides, Real Madrid and Barcelona, the next tier too.

All head to head matches in European finals, to limit ourselves to critical tests, are overwhelmingly in favour of La Liga teams, even Europa League. It is not even close. In European Cup/Champions, only one English win, in 1981, against, 5 for Spain. In UEFA/Europa League, since the very start, the only English win was Liverpool over Alavés, I remember it very well, 5-4. Four wins by Spain teams, in this century Sevilla over Middlesborough, Atlético over Fulham, Sevilla over Liverpool, Villareal over Manchester United. 

We can go to more stats if you want, it is neverending.

I think you may be cherry picking your arguments.

In the WC final, argentina had 4 prem players start and 3 la liga players 
France had 2 prem and 4 la liga.  
Seems pretty even. 

Croatia had 2 of each in their squad but 1 la liga player was a back up GK
Morroco had 4 la liga and 2 prem. 

The numbers are very very similar. You can make the case that argentinians are way more likely to play in la liga due to the language. None of the final 4 teams speak english as their first language so the prem doesnt get the slight favouritism that a player may have towards a country speaking their language. 

Bottom line: theres no significant difference in contributions to the WC final 4 from either league. 

Argument 1: contributions to the WC final 4  - no substantial difference
Argument 2: Coefficients - Prem wins
Argument 3: Ballon Dor: La liga wins
Argument 4: Competitiveness: 7 different prem winners since 2000, 4 winners since 2000. Prem is more competitve 
Argument 5: head to head in recent years: Prem wins (as per kents post)
Argument 6: Champions league final appearances: La liga 13, Prem 14 (since 2000)

The insights I derive from the above arguments is that the prem is a better league, but la liga has a very high ceiling. Take RM and Barca out and theres no comparison. The prem wins that any day. The prem even wins by coeffcient and head to head with RM and Barca. The best player in the world is highly likely to pick RM or Barca which inflates their Ballon dor stat. But having a ballon dor winner doesnt mean that voilladad can compete with west ham. The ballon dor argument seems weak at best. 


 

[Califax]

Arsenal could have used someone like David during the past few weeks. 

 

[Mattd97]

just wanted to point out that england has done far better than spain internationally in the past 10 years (i have no clue about Nations league though)

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

For my perspective at least, I just feel like you are putting a lot preferences in a lot of people's heads. I just don't know the people you talk about but I only go on Twitter for the news, not the opinions. And then that's not really them is it, it is what they choose to present on Twitter.  People can say what they want, hating them for it seems strange to me. 

Are there people who really care about 4 teams in England? I care about 1 team in the Premier League and I actively dislike a few teams and then I like to watch good football.  Put those together and a lot of games have interest to me. 

I have watched a fair number of French League games in the last couple years.  I do not claim to be an expert but on the whole, the level is higher in the Premier League, so if I were to chose a game just to watch with no horse in the race, it would be the latter.  

I think your point about choosing to watching a 0-0 is off.  First, a good portion of the beauty of sport is that you don't know the result when you start watching.  Only the very dedicated watch replays back if they know the score.  So you go in thinking: Arsenal and Man City play some very nice football at times and I have a decent chance of a good game.  For instance, their last game was 1-3 with a very nice DeBruyne chip and really nice dummy by Gundogan on the Grealish goal and some drama. No one wants game to end 0-0 unless you are chasing or trailing both, maybe.  I guess I just can't agree with that point at all. 

I mean, yeah, ultimately, we're talking about fans which is incredibly unimportant. I just meant to comment on the dumb reaction to the new alleged JD price tag, this discussion spiralled out from there, it's not a big deal at all other than an annoyance. I hear similar sentiments from football fans I know in Canada as well- Canadian EPL/EMNT fans with no English roots who think David is a farmer and Davies is wasting away in a terrible league and wear the England jersey for the world cup.

You only care about one team, and I'm going to guess that you aren't a WH fan because you think they're going to spend 200M on players and win next year's champions league, you have some sort of attachment to them. I'm also assuming that since you like good football and many games interest you, you're not going to only watch the top of the top and discard every other team as trash, there is a lot more good football out there. The fans I'm talking about are online, I also encounter them in real life, and most are brand new to the game and have a warped lack of appreciation for all that there is out there. Sure, be a liverpool fan because the champions league run a few years ago captured your heart, but don't turn around and call every other team on the planet garbage. It's how you develop a lack of appreciation for some of the great football in France, the total disregard for the Bundesliga, hell, even the MLS is underappreciated for how good it can be (at times). Just seems like a drag to have such a limited appreciation of the sport.

England's level is much higher for sure, it's the best league in the world. I used that example moreso in the hypothetical where you knew the outcome before the game, ie, if someone asked you if you had to watch a game, and one was a 0-0 snoozer between two teams with 11 huge names aside, or one of the best games of the year between the French giant and a top team like Lille with one of the best strikers outside of England in David with a fantastic finish, the sentiment I get from a lot of people is that they'd prefer the 0-0 one.

Again, stupid gripe, unimportant. Just think that there's a lot of good football out there that is completely disregarded by fans who don't know better, and I'd hate to be so close minded that I couldn't enjoy a good game in France, a big game between two Portuguese giants, or even a solid Bundesliga game against two competitive teams.

[Shway]

All this England vs Spain is coming from a complete unbiased, as I hold no affinity to either country. I've actually visited Spain several times, where I haven't been to England once (I should go visit my brother soon). 
 

@Unnamed Trialist you are completely biased, as you mention how great the country and the city of Barcelona is whenever you get the chance. It's not a dig, but based on your replies it shows you can always have a biased opinion especially based on the points @Bigandy took the time to point out. 

Oh yea, and Ballon D'or....for me is a dumb metric to use considering soccer is a team sport. AND the results of where each player played is a clear representation of how skewed La Liga is from Barca/Madrid .

I hope David goes to the Premier League because he can always go to La Liga after when he's older and slow downs a little bit. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, InglewoodJack said:

I'm going to guess that you aren't a WH fan because you think they're going to spend 200M on players and win next year's champions league.

Nah, we are going spend 200M* and to barely stay in the league, like hopefully we did this year.😉

 

 

*Seriously it was about £175M.  Tough league.  

 

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Nah, we are going spend 200M* and to barely stay in the league, like hopefully we did this year.😉

 

 

*Seriously it was about £175M.  Tough league.  

 

It was actually that much? Jeeze, I thought only Chelsea and NF blew that sort of cash...

I have a soft spot for teams like West Ham though, because for a team that has had some very good seasons, they play in London, and yet, you don't go two days without hearing about what a tragedy it is that a player like Declan Rice is STUCK on such a farmers team. How dare a team keep its best players and build around them!!

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Just now, InglewoodJack said:

It was actually that much? Jeeze, I thought only Chelsea and NF blew that sort of cash...

I have a soft spot for teams like West Ham though, because for a team that has had some very good seasons, they play in London, and yet, you don't go two days without hearing about what a tragedy it is that a player like Declan Rice is STUCK on such a farmers team. How dare a team keep its best players and build around them!!

I have heard similar ("farmer's team" or "league" is not common these days in my circles, though the term "agricultural challenge" - one that digs up dirt - is around) since I could really follow football - Ferdinand, Defoe, Cole, Carrick, Glen Johnson, etc.  Ince was earlier.   So maybe I have developed too thick a skin to similar talk.

 

On spending, Man U is above us with Chelsea this year but I am pretty sure I read that 12 of the 20 teams spend more than £100M this year.  Taking that way back to topic, when I was half-joking about newly promoted teams trying for David. Crazy money. 

For the record, I don't want David anywhere near the Premier League, just for the money.  It has to be the right situation, which, for me, is at less than a handful of teams.

[InglewoodJack]

15 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I have heard similar ("farmer's team" or "league" is not common these days in my circles, though the term "agricultural challenge" - one that digs up dirt - is around) since I could really follow football - Ferdinand, Defoe, Cole, Carrick, Glen Johnson, etc.  Ince was earlier.   So maybe I have developed too thick a skin to similar talk.

 

On spending, Man U is above us with Chelsea this year but I am pretty sure I read that 12 of the 20 teams spend more than £100M this year.  Taking that way back to topic, when I was half-joking about newly promoted teams trying for David. Crazy money. 

For the record, I don't want David anywhere near the Premier League, just for the money.  It has to be the right situation, which, for me, is at less than a handful of teams.

I want David in the premier league for the reason I hate those fans. Nothing sweeter than seeing David naturally progress into an EPL star and shut up "the haters", but I'm indifferent with him going to a big English club vs a big Italian or Spanish club or Bayern Munich. I think he might have worse growing pains with Madrid or Barcelona given their depth, but Milan, Napoli, Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, not a huge difference to me. Maybe Chelsea would be a god awful situation for the reason you're saying though.

[frmr]

In other (more on-topic) news, David's value on TM is now up to €60m. Only €10m below Davies now.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/jonathan-david/profil/spieler/533738

[costarg]

10 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

EPL hasn't had a Balloon d'Or since Owen.

This isn't a valid arguement, perhaps La Liga has more Ballon d'Or cause the defences are generally weaker, so easier for poachers to poach. 

EPL is also a lot more balanced, where as historically you know who the top two are in La Liga.  EPL has tougher games week after week.

[gigi riva]

According to the press in Italy looks like AC Milan is hot on his tail . Being a Canadian / Italian it has always been a dream of mine to see a Canadian play in Serie A