Herdman new head coach

[TOcanadafan]

12 hours ago, VinceA said:

Were so cooked 😭😭

Damnit… why didn’t we think of using drones that looked like birds?

[InglewoodJack]

15 hours ago, Obinna said:

Put me on the Drogba side of the argument. I don't support the drones, but they seem to be common enough not to worry about the so-called mess. Saying we will no longer engage in this practice, then moving on from it to more positive things, is enough for me. It's laughable we are beating this dead horse, imo.

I still think a more developed soccer nation would have moved on from this by now, maybe switching gears to the potential transfer of Cornelius to Marseille, or where David will end up next season. It's all about click though, and negativity sells, especially for us self-loathing Canadians.

I can here the ignorant comments now:

"see....this is why we suck at soccer...had to cheat with drones just to make the world Cup"!

I agree with all of this, except I don’t think this is because negativity sells, I think it’s more that Canada loves to self flagellate, and because soccer still isn’t seen as part of our national identity, the media class sees this as a participation trophy sport where being good and saying sorry is more important than defending our gold medal and letting our players do their thing.

Guys making over dramatic “we don’t deserve the World Cup and I wouldn’t be surprised if we lose it” aren’t saying that because the negativity will get them engagement, I think it’s more that many Canadians have a hard time actually talking about their country without prefacing it with an apology. In this regard, we have a lot to learn from our neighbours to the south about how we see ourselves. 
 

Semi-related: great showing by Canada basketball yesterday. Hopefully none of these reporters ever learn who Dillon Brooks is or they might suggest that if we don’t send him to The Hague, we should pull out of the games all together.

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I agree with all of this, except I don’t think this is because negativity sells, I think it’s more that Canada loves to self flagellate, and because soccer still isn’t seen as part of our national identity, the media class sees this as a participation trophy sport where being good and saying sorry is more important than defending our gold medal and letting our players do their thing.

Guys making over dramatic “we don’t deserve the World Cup and I wouldn’t be surprised if we lose it” aren’t saying that because the negativity will get them engagement, I think it’s more that many Canadians have a hard time actually talking about their country without prefacing it with an apology. In this regard, we have a lot to learn from our neighbours to the south about how we see ourselves. 
 

Semi-related: great showing by Canada basketball yesterday. Hopefully none of these reporters ever learn who Dillon Brooks is or they might suggest that if we don’t send him to The Hague, we should pull out of the games all together.

Good post. You put it better than I did.

[The Ref]

Non redacted emails reveal that it was John Herdman who started the spying practice now imputed to Priestman.

[ballerz]

MLSE has no choice but to can him. MLSE is lucky they can can him with cause.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, ballerz said:

MLSE has no choice but to can him. MLSE is lucky they can can him with cause.

Think the writing is very much on the wall but doubt it happens straight away unless TFC's form takes an extreme nosedive. I suspect they'll wait and see whether FIFA and/or the CSA suspend him from the sport for his past alleged nefarious activities with drones so they can avoid paying out his contract and potentially those of his coaching entourage that followed him to TFC from the CMNT. As things stand right now they probably don't have sufficient cause in that regard because he hasn't been found guilty of anything yet.

 

[costarg]

6 hours ago, ballerz said:

MLSE has no choice but to can him. MLSE is lucky they can can him with cause.

Really?  I might be naïve, but I just don't see it. 

We know other teams/nations do it.  This is only an issue because Bev was idiotic enough to do it at the Olympics AND with an illegal drone.  Her only defense is "I didn't start it, we did it before".  I don't see how Herdman gets punished by a new employer unless it's orchestrated to help make Bev/CSA not look so bad.

[narduch]

4 minutes ago, costarg said:

Really?  I might be naïve, but I just don't see it. 

We know other teams/nations do it.  This is only an issue because Bev was idiotic enough to do it at the Olympics AND with an illegal drone.  Her only defense is "I didn't start it, we did it before".  I don't see how Herdman gets punished by a new employer unless it's orchestrated to help make Bev/CSA not look so bad.

I think the CSA is perfectly happy to have Bev be the scapegoat for this. Her contract was renewed before Blue entered by the way.

I'm 50/50 on whether Herdman is in trouble at TFC. It all really depends on if FIFA hands him a suspension 

[h coach]

23 minutes ago, costarg said:

Really?  I might be naïve, but I just don't see it. 

We know other teams/nations do it.  This is only an issue because Bev was idiotic enough to do it at the Olympics AND with an illegal drone.  Her only defense is "I didn't start it, we did it before".  I don't see how Herdman gets punished by a new employer unless it's orchestrated to help make Bev/CSA not look so bad.

FIFA might not pursue Herdman, as he would open a can of worms of what other countries do...

[CanadaFan123]

26 minutes ago, narduch said:

I think the CSA is perfectly happy to have Bev be the scapegoat for this. Her contract was renewed before Blue entered by the way.

I'm 50/50 on whether Herdman is in trouble at TFC. It all really depends on if FIFA hands him a suspension 

I don’t know how FIFA could possibly side step the issue with Herdman. In fact, I think punishing Herdman would be a perfect “out” for fifa too. Avoid sanctioning a World Cup host team and lay the blame on him and Priestman. 

[YorkRegionFan]

I do not see how Herdman will get fired because of the scandal.  He no longer works for the CSA and I do not think he has done anything that is a cause for dismissal while he has been at MLSE. 

I get people want to punish him, but he is no longer a CSA employee.

[Vasi]

I don't think that FIFA will get involved with Herdman. As the previous posts stated. 

However, I think the CSA has no choice but to suspend him if they can. Blue needs to show that he is overhauling the CSA and turning a new leaf. 

[Vasi]

3 minutes ago, YorkRegionFan said:

I do not see how Herdman will get fired because of the scandal.  He no longer works for the CSA and I do not think he has done anything that is a cause for dismissal while he has been at MLSE. 

I get people want to punish him, but he is no longer a CSA employee.

He can be banned from future CSA activities. He can also be banned from any FA run tournaments. So no Canadian Championships? 

The MLS can also get involved. 

MLS wants a squeaky clean image so does  MLSE. 

Edited August 1 by Vasi

[CanadaFan123]

1 minute ago, Vasi said:

He can be banned from future CSA activities. He can also be banned from any FA run tournaments. So no Canadian Championships? 

That would actually be really good (for him) if the FA banned him for the remainder of the Canadian Championship. Might also save his job as he can avoid being at the helm when Forge knocks them out. 

[Obinna]

20 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I don’t know how FIFA could possibly side step the issue with Herdman. In fact, I think punishing Herdman would be a perfect “out” for fifa too. Avoid sanctioning a World Cup host team and lay the blame on him and Priestman. 

I think there is a difference between incriminating emails and actually catching and being in possession of a drone.

I don't see Herdman getting any retroactive punishment, especially considering he is no longer part of Canadian soccer.

[CanadaFan123]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think there is a difference between incriminating emails and actually catching and being in possession of a drone.

I don't see Herdman getting any retroactive punishment, especially considering he is no longer part of Canadian soccer.

He’s still under the umbrella of FIFA. Just like if you had a doping test come back positive from a previous club - it doesn’t just get let go because you’re at a new club. 
 

Emails/testimony can be incriminating as that is essentially what got us the 6 point penalty. 

[RS]

52 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

He’s still under the umbrella of FIFA. Just like if you had a doping test come back positive from a previous club - it doesn’t just get let go because you’re at a new club. 
 

Emails/testimony can be incriminating as that is essentially what got us the 6 point penalty. 

It was the arrest that led to the punishment. FIFA likely took the emails and testimony into account when deciding the severity but I believe the arrest and subsequent discovery of footage of the NZ practices are what really brought the hammer down.

Herdman was smart enough to never get caught with actual incriminating evidence.

[The Ref]

Like somebody said "not guilty, but responsible" lol

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, RS said:

It was the arrest that led to the punishment. FIFA likely took the emails and testimony into account when deciding the severity but I believe the arrest and subsequent discovery of footage of the NZ practices are what really brought the hammer down.

Herdman was smart enough to never get caught with actual incriminating evidence.

That is the spark that started it but the failed appeal confirmed that their punishment was largely based on Canada Soccer’s admissions/submissions. They were never caught red handed with any evidence of past wrongdoing but were punished for it all the same based off that. So logically one would conclude that extends to Herdman as well. 

[RS]

10 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

That is the spark that started it but the failed appeal confirmed that their punishment was largely based on Canada Soccer’s admissions/submissions. They were never caught red handed with any evidence of past wrongdoing but were punished for it all the same based off that. So logically one would conclude that extends to Herdman as well. 

But they were caught red handed at the Olympics, with physical evidence and all.

We agree that the admissions/submissions were a factor in the punishment's severity, however there would have been no punishment at all if the assistant coach didn't get caught and arrested by French police. Unless you believe Canada Soccer would have pre-emptively volunteered that info.

[GasPed]

35 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

That is the spark that started it but the failed appeal confirmed that their punishment was largely based on Canada Soccer’s admissions/submissions. They were never caught red handed with any evidence of past wrongdoing but were punished for it all the same based off that. So logically one would conclude that extends to Herdman as well. 

I suspect FIFA will not go there, at least not yet.  They're likely hoping that the whole thing blows over now - i.e. they've dished out a hefty punishment and sent a message and that's that.  I don't think they'll launch an investigation into all the past incidents and determine who was responsible, who needs to be punished, etc.  Having said that, if the CSA's investigation provides more damning indictments of staff and systemic flouting of the rules, I could see FIFA getting involved again.

As for MLSE (and the MLS for that matter), I don't think do anything either just yet.  Firing/sanctioning someone based on third-hand e-mails from a past life would be pretty extreme, and it most certainly wouldn't be termination "with cause".  Now if the CSA's investigation uncovers some things, then they might revisit - but again there's no way they could terminate "with cause", unless he's done something egregious within the job he currently holds.

[CanadaFan123]

45 minutes ago, RS said:

But they were caught red handed at the Olympics, with physical evidence and all.

We agree that the admissions/submissions were a factor in the punishment's severity, however there would have been no punishment at all if the assistant coach didn't get caught and arrested by French police. Unless you believe Canada Soccer would have pre-emptively volunteered that info.

I don’t disagree but they were caught red handed at the Olympics, which in turn has uncovered Herdman’s discrepancies. Someone has already confirmed that Herdman showed the footage prior to a WCQ. The CSA internal investigation will in all likelihood produce further evidence against him as they are already hinting. Similar to someone being caught doping in the past, I don’t think they have a choice but to come down on him given that they took such a hard stance on the women. Not doing so will be a bad look. 
 

Maybe Herdman was incredibly stealthy about it but history tells us he was probably wasn’t. 

[DoyleG]

2 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Maybe Herdman was incredibly stealthy about it but history tells us he was probably wasn’t. 

He wasn't...

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/soccer/canada-olympic-womens-soccer-appeal-denied-emails-1.7280924

[RS]

2 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I don’t disagree but they were caught red handed at the Olympics, which in turn has uncovered Herdman’s discrepancies. Someone has already confirmed that Herdman showed the footage prior to a WCQ. The CSA internal investigation will in all likelihood produce further evidence against him as they are already hinting. Similar to someone being caught doping in the past, I don’t think they have a choice but to come down on him given that they took such a hard stance on the women. Not doing so will be a bad look. 
 

Maybe Herdman was incredibly stealthy about it but history tells us he was probably wasn’t. 

It depends on who you're talking about.

FIFA likely just wants this to go away as too much scrutiny could uncover more spying given how widespread it is. We've already got Didier Drogba and Tyler Adams both saying that everyone does it, which in itself is not a great look for FIFA.

They likely thought the -6 points would be fatal to the Canadian women in Paris and would neatly wrap everything up without further compromising the tournament, but they didn't anticipate Canada winning all three matches.

As for Canada Soccer, we'll see. They haven't punished "the women" (or anyone else yet, really) so it remains to be seen what comes of the investigation. It'll be really hard to come down on Herdman without FIFA getting involved, IMO.

[El Diego]

21 minutes ago, GasPed said:

I suspect FIFA will not go there, at least not yet.  They're likely hoping that the whole thing blows over now - i.e. they've dished out a hefty punishment and sent a message and that's that.  I don't think they'll launch an investigation into all the past incidents and determine who was responsible, who needs to be punished, etc.  Having said that, if the CSA's investigation provides more damning indictments of staff and systemic flouting of the rules, I could see FIFA getting involved again.

As for MLSE (and the MLS for that matter), I don't think do anything either just yet.  Firing/sanctioning someone based on third-hand e-mails from a past life would be pretty extreme, and it most certainly wouldn't be termination "with cause".  Now if the CSA's investigation uncovers some things, then they might revisit - but again there's no way they could terminate "with cause", unless he's done something egregious within the job he currently holds.

The final paragraph of the FIFA Appeal Committe decision:

"75. As a final note, the Chairperson wished to remark that this decision relates only to the drone incidents that occurred at the OFT. As the Chairperson understands it, the CSA is conducting its own broader investigation into spying. In this respect, the Chairperson expects the CSA to provide FIFA with the results of said investigation in order for it to be able to assess and decide whether further action by the FIFA bodies is necessary and appropriate."

The bolding and underlining of the word only was in the decision itself, it is the only word in the decision to have such special treatment. I am not as confident as you and @RS that FIFA wants and will allow this to blow over -- they could have simply fined the CSA and I don't think anyone would have said Canada got off easy. Instead, they gave them -6 points, which is as close to disqualifying a team as you can get without actually doing it (they don't know bout our women though).