Herdman new head coach

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

Davies has seemed incredibly invested in the program, hes spoken very highly of JH, and hes done nothing that suggests he doesnt respect canada.  

He obviously knows hes the best player and wants to give back. He knows the program has limitations but that doesnt stop him from caring. As a BM player, he obviously understands discipline. Does he play hero ball? Yes, but thats because he wants to make a difference. He isnt doing it out of disrespect towards herdman or the program.  I think its an incredibly hot take to suggest that just because hes at a higher level than the prorgram, he would somehow disrespect it and no longer want to give back to the country that accepted him as a refugee. 

I agree its not intentional and Davies does what he does with the best intentions.  And he loves the program and Herdman. So that tells me the hand guiding him needs to be more tough in the tough love. Is there someone we could bring in that could do that? Not sure.  So you hope Herdman matures. 

[InglewoodJack]

28 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

All of that is valid, rumours taken as rumours of course. 

 I don't see us being able to attract a big pedigree coach that Davies will respect automatically based on his record.  So you stick with Herdman and hope they grow together. 

But again, the program is not destroyed and hopefully whoever might come in does some things better. I am just not sure who that is, at the moment. 

I have half a mind to think the players would respect Smyrniotis' coaching just because he's had a hand in developing so much Canadian talent, but yeah- don't exactly think we can lock down a coach with elite pedigree.

I don't think Davies is actively sabotaging Herdman or anything- just that there comes a time where world class athletes playing on not-world class teams will eventually come to the conclusion that their skills aren't properly being used by the coach and it's time to take matters into their own hands. You see this in football, Basketball, Hockey, anything.

[Kadenge]

Herdman was absolutely the right hire at the right time for our program.  There was a lack of mental toughness, confidence & team unity. We never had the talent we now have in world class players but we had enough talent in the past (2007 for sure) to qualify for a WC or at the very least get to the  Hex. JH proved a lot of us wrong and we have to give the CSA credit. Think he's hit a ceiling over the past year or so though. Hiring the right coach is no easy task and if John is leaving, I sure hope we get someone that  will take this team to the next level.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

Oh, certainly. I don't want any part of a part-time Herdman regime (and I'm not that thrilled about full-time Herdman either).

I agree, I don't see how he manages CANMNT and the scouting necessary while doing TFC fulltime.  That's a lot of work considering some of us are already questioning the way he plays some of the guys.

[gator]

Like many others on here I was not thrilled with the JH hire but he won me over with WC qualification, I think he made some very poor decisions in the WC and he may have reached his peak with this program! There is a shelf life for every manager/coach in sport not named Ferguson or Paterno so it may be best for all parties if he moves on, Herdman seems to be always looking for the next opportunity and this may be it! I am concerned about the CSA getting his replacement hire right but am also looking forward to some new ideas!

[Big_M]

Its very simple: Herdman knows he cant do more with the national team and is thinking about getting out...his peak was qualifying for the world cup which was amazing but he knows he cant bring the team to a championship at gold cup,nations league,copa america or get far in a world cup...each coach has limitations and weaknesses...wheeldon for example in 4 years wasnt able to get his team to peak at the right time...herdman is great at early stages of competitions but hasnt been able to get to a championship or out of the group stage in the case of the world cup...his coaching has come up short in those moments/games...but gotta thank him for everything he has done for the program

[costarg]

Here's a reset and a question.... I was absolutely stunned by Herdman's appointment, yet decided I'd watch closely before freaking out, cause I will admit I was pretty close.  I could not digest Floro and the lows we suffered with him.  His treatment of Osorio alone was disgusting and pathetic, so Zambrano was a godsend. 

Took a couple of games and I was 100% sold and supported Herdman all the way through WCQ.  Serious questions started being asked during the WC warm-up matches when it seemed like Herdman was gonna use the same tactics he used vs minnows on the biggest stage.  The questions increased and the volume got louder during the WC.  It became obvious Herdman reached his peak and had no answers, it was a cavalier display of arrogance and naivety.

Looking back now, I wonder how this would have unfolded under Zambrano?  Obviously not suggesting he would have won it all, but I'm more than confident he also would have gotten us qualification to the WC with a pretty good record.

Edited August 22, 2023 by costarg

[toontownman]

There seems so much at play here its hard to form an opinion one way or another or trust what we are seeing is what is going on.

Another power play of politics from Herdman or is he really wanting out? 

If TFC really wanted him would it he dragged out and seemingly as relaxed timescale wise as the TFC high brass are suggesting?

There are certainly an abundance of signs all are not well on Herdmans/players/CSA side, going back well over a year. Herdman making jibes against the CSA, rumours of players losing trust with Herdman. The CSA being the CSA.

I do think there is a potential showing of increased entitlement and empowerment Herdman has instilled in the mens/women's programs that has hindered as much as helper him. That instilation of belief was a good thing but I think it has possibly made players out of balance with the reality of the CSA's situation (of which the csa is of course a shambles) and driven a wide wedge. We are however in uncharted territory for the talent level and exposure our players/program is getting.

It is probably a good exit point as any for Herdman and a challenge he would likely relish but if he does want out he is likely hedging his bets that he has peaked with CMNT and this is as high as his stock goes there (imo). He has been linked away increasingly for the last year and half. Maybe there is no smoke without fire. I'd certainly be happy with him bringing through the next generation of TFC Canadian youth too. 

Where does this leave CMNT however? Some people will be happy, no doubt. Maybe a fresh start will be good for everyone and its always an exciting rejuvenating time, at first at least. Some people will rightly mourn the loss given his historical impact to our Canadian programs. The biggest worry isn't Herdman leaving but who would replace him. Maybe better the devil you know.

The CSA would be backs against the wall again with likely huge pressure to spend more money than they have on a coach with better pedigree to replace Herdman (unless TFC are going to pay a big fee for his services to the CSA). The players and public will be heavily pushing for that. Or giving Herdman more say, control and money to stay.. but maybe that was the wiley Geordies play all along.

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, costarg said:

Here's a reset and a question.... I was absolutely stunned by Herdman's appointment, yet decided I'd watch closely before freaking out, cause I will admit I was pretty close.  I could not digest Floro and the lows we suffered with him.  His treatment of Osorio alone was disgusting and pathetic, so Zambrano was a godsend. 

Took a couple of games and I was 100% sold and supported Herdman all the way through WCQ.  Serious questions started being asked during the WC warm-up matches when it seemed like Herdman was gonna use the same tactics he used vs minnows on the biggest stage.  The questions increased and the volume got louder during the WC.  It became obvious Herdman reached his peak and had no answers, it was a cavalier display of arrogance and naivety.

Looking back now, I wonder how would this have unfolded under Zambrano?  Obviously not suggesting he would have won it all, but I'm more than confident he also would have gotten us qualification to the WC with a pretty good record.

Speaking of Zambrano, is that a potential replacement for Herdman or did he burn that bridge at the CSA forever? I seem to recall some kind of controversy, but seems like forever ago and I don't remember the details. Can anyone recall?

Zambrano was fine prior to Herdman and many of us were happy. Then when he got dumped for Herdman many of us went scorched earth on the CSA, myself included. Much like yourself, I was won over by Herdman and let go.

FWIW Zambrano since leaving us has gone on to manager to seperate Colombian clubs. The first was Independiente Medellin, which it seems he took to a 2nd place finish in the top flight, which is really good. Then he left for Deportivo Pasto who finished 6th, which was a massive improvement on their 18th place finish the season prior. So without actually following and just looking at wiki, it seems like he did good things. He was sacked for reasons unknown to me (I don't have the time to translate and my Spanish isn't good enough to interpret the linked article.

Either way, he was out of the game for a few years, then returned with FAS, which is one of the top clubs in El Salvador. Looks like he was sacked in April of this year. They finished a disappointing 6th so that's probably why. Nonetheless, Zambrano could make sense if the off field stuff (whatever happened) can be reconciled (on both sides). Hell, maybe Tabla would even get a recall.

Zambrano was big on him during his tenure, even though he technically made his debut under Herdman. 

[costarg]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Speaking of Zambrano, is that a potential replacement for Herdman or did he burn that bridge at the CSA forever? I seem to recall some kind of controversy, but seems like forever ago and I don't remember the details. Can anyone recall?

Zambrano was fine prior to Herdman and many of us were happy. Then when he got dumped for Herdman many of us went scorched earth on the CSA, myself included. Much like yourself, I was won over by Herdman and let go.

FWIW Zambrano since leaving us has gone on to manager to seperate Colombian clubs. The first was Independiente Medellin, which it seems he took to a 2nd place finish in the top flight, which is really good. Then he left for Deportivo Pasto who finished 6th, which was a massive improvement on their 18th place finish the season prior. So without actually following and just looking at wiki, it seems like he did good things. He was sacked for reasons unknown to me (I don't have the time to translate and my Spanish isn't good enough to interpret the linked article.

Either way, he was out of the game for a few years, then returned with FAS, which is one of the top clubs in El Salvador. Looks like he was sacked in April of this year. They finished a disappointing 6th so that's probably why. Nonetheless, Zambrano could make sense if the off field stuff (whatever happened) can be reconciled (on both sides). Hell, maybe Tabla would even get a recall.

Zambrano was big on him during his tenure, even though he technically made his debut under Herdman. 

Pretty sure Zambrano is still holding a grudge, I think someone on here posted some of his Twitter (X) rants about CANMNT.  It continued for quite a while, some of them got deleted shortly after.  I can understand him, he was doing well, more and more talent was showing up, he signed at the perfect moment and things were booming.  Must've been hard to move on with all that promise.

[BrennanFan]

Herdman got the job done in Qualifying but his record has been so mediocre since then that I really don't know what to make of his actual quality as a manager.  I wouldn't be surprised if he never did anything of significance in the men's game after parting ways with the CSA - that's always been the way things go for our coaches, save perhaps Osiek.  

[Bigandy]

5 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Herdman got the job done in Qualifying but his record has been so mediocre since then that I really don't know what to make of his actual quality as a manager.  I wouldn't be surprised if he never did anything of significance in the men's game after parting ways with the CSA - that's always been the way things go for our coaches, save perhaps Osiek.  

Has his record been mediocre since qualifying? 

We got to the nations league final and lost out to a better USA team who had more preperations. 
We took an expiremental B/C team to the gold cup and almost got a result vs the USA.   

He hasnt lost any games that we should win. Are we going to say that unless Herdman wins every single game against teams that are better than him, hes not quality? 

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Has his record been mediocre since qualifying? 

We got to the nations league final and lost out to a better USA team who had more preperations. 
We took an expiremental B/C team to the gold cup and almost got a result vs the USA.   

He hasnt lost any games that we should win. Are we going to say that unless Herdman wins every single game against teams that are better than him, hes not quality? 

Counterargument on NL: We got an easy draw

Counter-to-that counterargument: Panama is a damn good side - knocked out the Ticos and made the GC final. They are ranked just a spot or two behind us in the FIFA rankings for a reason. They are not Mexico or USA, but they deserve credit and Herdman and co. deserve credit for getting past them. 

[Bigandy]

17 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Counterargument on NL: We got an easy draw

Counter-to-that counterargument: Panama is a damn good side - knocked out the Ticos and made the GC final. They are ranked just a spot or two behind us in the FIFA rankings for a reason. They are not Mexico or USA, but they deserve credit and Herdman and co. deserve credit for getting past them. 

I dont think theres a counter or a counter counter argument really. 

If youre talking about expected winners, we were expected to beat panama regardless of if they are easy or difficult. We won.  Our record is so predictable based on squad strengths since we qualified with the exception being that we beat japan? 

[costarg]

52 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Has his record been mediocre since qualifying? 

We got to the nations league final and lost out to a better USA team who had more preperations. 
We took an expiremental B/C team to the gold cup and almost got a result vs the USA.   

He hasnt lost any games that we should win. Are we going to say that unless Herdman wins every single game against teams that are better than him, hes not quality? 

Were we expected to tie Guatemala and Guadeloupe and depend on other results to squeak into 2nd round?  You need to call it both ways. 

[BrennanFan]

6 wins - 4 ties - 5 losses.  Yes that's mediocre.  Not terrible.  Not particularly good.

More importantly, we've lost the spark we had in qualifying.  We haven't looked or felt good in a while.  Too long. 

Time for a change.

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

Were we expected to tie Guatemala and Guadeloupe and depend on other results to squeak into 2nd round?  You need to call it both ways. 

Arguably yes given our it was our B/C team.  Guadeloupe is a good side with a few guys playing in top leagues in europe. 
Guatemala we probably should have been expected to win but they had a good performance.  

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

6 wins - 4 ties - 5 losses.  Yes that's mediocre.  Not terrible.  Not particularly good.

More importantly, we've lost the spark we had in qualifying.  We haven't looked or felt good in a while.  Too long. 

Time for a change.

5 losses - Are you referring to belguim, croatia, morroco, Usa, Usa.....? 

I have no idea what sort of standard this forum expects from CMNT but it feels like the bar is unrealistically high. 

[costarg]

7 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Arguably yes given our it was our B/C team.  Guadeloupe is a good side with a few guys playing in top leagues in europe. 
Guatemala we probably should have been expected to win but they had a good performance.  

Pfft.  I call bullshit.  We had 6 A-team players vs Guadeloupe and Guatemala.

We've dropped 20 spots in FIFA rankings.  That's not inline with expected results.  You only drop that much if you aren't performing as well as you were.

Edited August 22, 2023 by costarg

[BearcatSA]

When did he sign on with his renegotiated contract?

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

Pfft.  I call bullshit.  We had 6 A-team players vs Guadeloupe and Guatemala.

Ok.... you can argue the definition of the squad but the more important piece was that guadeloupe have a good roster with guys playing in some top euro leagues. We didnt really have any euro guys from good leagues with the exception of vitoria-ish?

[Kadenge]

I'm going to give JH a pass on the GC as that was an experimental side, although we had our A defenders. But when was the last time we made the finals of a Concacaf tournament?  Having said that, we just didn't look good in NL (lacked the normal spark) in the 2-0 Panama win and the 0-2 USA loss.  The team looked flat in both games. 2 moments of brilliance from David & Davies saved the day vs Panama, who I thought was the better team overall. While we had some chances vs the US the result was never in doubt. Being shut out was concerning. This with David & Larin coming off strong club performances. Staq was also below the level we are used to. We just didn't see that during WCQ. Perhaps John has lost the room.

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

54 minutes ago, costarg said:

Pfft.  I call bullshit.  We had 6 A-team players vs Guadeloupe and Guatemala.

Not sure that's true. 

Compare the starting lineups to the Nations League USA game which should have been the strongest we had. 

Keeper - different

1 defender the same in the first game, 2 in second.

2 midfielders the same of 5, (but you could argue Buchanan would normally start in an A team ahead of Laryea )

Forwards - different. 

So 4 maybe 3 is a lot different than 6 which would be a majority of team. 

 

And part of those changes were playing players where they had never or rarely played (RCB in a 3  for McGraw and DM for Bombito)

 Of course it was an experimental team.  

Edit: I would also argue that 2 of the "A" players are ones we are looking to replace in the near future. And play in areas where we have struggled for quality in the past. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Bigandy]

13 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

I'm going to give JH a pass on the GC as that was an experimental side, although we had our A defenders. But when was the last time we made the finals of a Concacaf tournament?  Having said that, we just didn't look good in NL (lacked the normal spark) in the 2-0 Panama win and the 0-2 USA loss.  The team looked flat in both games. 2 moments of brilliance from David & Davies saved the day vs Panama, who I thought was the better team overall. While we had some chances vs the US the result was never in doubt. Being shut out was concerning. This with David & Larin coming off strong club performances. Staq was also below the level we are used to. We just didn't see that during WCQ. Perhaps John has lost the room.

 

We only had vitoria as our A defender at the gold cup. Cornelius could arguably be our #1 LCB and AJ is our #1 RCB. 

I feel like if JH lost the room there would be less buy in to the system. Being flat is more likely an extension of a long season, short prep time, and most importantly having some key guys like davies, buchanan, oso, vitoria (benched), johnston, cornelius all returning from injury. Of course the USA has these challenges too but their depth and quality is so much higher and they played at home. 

If JH lost the dressing room, I think you would see some major roster overhauls, lack of participation/cohesion/effort, less tactical buy in etc.  Being flat isnt really enough evidence for that claim.  

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Not sure that's true. 

Compare the starting lineups to the Nations League USA game which should have been the strongest we had. 

Keeper - different

1 defender the same in the first game, 2 in second.

2 midfielders the same of 5, (but you could argue Buchanan would normally start in an A team ahead of Laryea )

Forwards - different. 

So 4 maybe 3 is a lot different than 6 which would be a majority of team. 

 

And part of those changes were playing players where they had never or rarely played (RCB in a 3  for McGraw and DM for Bombito)

 Of course it was an experimental team.  

Thank you! Im all for calling out herdmans mistakes. TBH he gives me the same vibes realtors can give off when they are artificially nice and superficial.  However, I just want to be fair in criticizing him. 

TBH I feel like some people who criticize his tactical acumen are confused over the difference between tactics and player selection (even though there can be overlap).