Herdman new head coach

[mpg_29]

9 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Re the issue of tactical importance, I will say that good tactics won’t win you every game, but I think that poor tactics can most definitely lose you games.   That is why you have to get them correct.  The right tactics won’t let Canada roll over Croatia, but it might prevent them from rolling over us. Get that wrong and, well, you know   

The other tactical issue that people have noted en masse is Herdman's inability to adjust and make in-game substitutions that turn our fortunes around.  The have been instances where we are all watching a game and there has been a universal recognition that something isn’t working - and lo and behold we end up getting punished as a result because the necessary changes weren’t made.  Not to pick on Oso, but there have been games where he was obviously and visibly gassed, with nothing left in the tank, and yet he had stayed on the field as a then-ineffective piece. A good tactician can read the way a game is unfolding and adjust accordingly, and aside from a couple of examples where we have made some impact subs, I simply have not seen this.  If anything, we seem to rely on predetermined formation shifts that looked arbitrary or which have even seemed counterproductive at the time.  

Tactics may not be everything in international soccer, but I think they a fairly important piece of the puzzle and not something that should be overlooked.  
 

Not sure I entirely I agree with this. Herdman definitely made tactical changes when things weren't working. And with regards to not subbing out players this ALWAYS come back to if there are actual better options available.

Like I'm not saying Herdman doesn't make mistakes but most diehard fans are so desperate they are not even living in reality when they complain and give opinions about how a game is going. Many times the drop in quality between the fatigued player on the field and what is on the bench is immense.

[InglewoodJack]

9 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

Not sure I entirely I agree with this. Herdman definitely made tactical changes when things weren't working. And with regards to not subbing out players this ALWAYS come back to if there are actual better options available.

Like I'm not saying Herdman doesn't make mistakes but most diehard fans are so desperate they are not even living in reality when they complain and give opinions about how a game is going. Many times the drop in quality between the fatigued player on the field and what is on the bench is immense.

I think picking apart Herdman's tactics is not seeing the forest for the trees. Sure an elite tactician probably makes us a better team, but ultimately it comes down to how good the players are. Hockey is a completely different sport, but look at our national team- you just throw a bunch of all stars together and give them an average coach and that usually results in a gold medal. If Herdman had a roster full of top tier EPL players at his disposal, we'd have probably advanced to the world cup knockouts, likely won Gold Cup and Nations League and Herdman would likely have the safest job in international soccer. Not much you can do when you look to your bench and you can either bring on Liam Fraser, Brym, or ZBG. Pep couldn't turn that into a result, let alone Herdman.

[BearcatSA]

...

Edited August 22, 2023 by BearcatSA

[costarg]

23 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

Not sure I entirely I agree with this. Herdman definitely made tactical changes when things weren't working. And with regards to not subbing out players this ALWAYS come back to if there are actual better options available.

Like I'm not saying Herdman doesn't make mistakes but most diehard fans are so desperate they are not even living in reality when they complain and give opinions about how a game is going. Many times the drop in quality between the fatigued player on the field and what is on the bench is immense.

I'm siding with @dyslexic nam on this one.  Have you seen this board during games?  Or even once the 11 are posted?  The amount of "WTFs" posted are ridiculous and greatly out number the "wow, this guy is having a great game", "did you see that?".  And It's not even close.

I agree Herdman was making lots of changes at the GC, but nothing close to game changing or even formation.  It just looked like a team playing a friendly.  Every single player swap was clearly pre-planned and most of us were scratching our heads.

[jonovision]

38 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think picking apart Herdman's tactics is not seeing the forest for the trees. Sure an elite tactician probably makes us a better team, but ultimately it comes down to how good the players are. Hockey is a completely different sport, but look at our national team- you just throw a bunch of all stars together and give them an average coach and that usually results in a gold medal. If Herdman had a roster full of top tier EPL players at his disposal, we'd have probably advanced to the world cup knockouts, likely won Gold Cup and Nations League and Herdman would likely have the safest job in international soccer. Not much you can do when you look to your bench and you can either bring on Liam Fraser, Brym, or ZBG. Pep couldn't turn that into a result, let alone Herdman.

Is this a pro-Herdman argument or not?

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

Of course, if it is a Bob Lenarduzzi-like dual-role situation (club & country), then he probably has nothing to lose by making the move.

@Colonel Green@shorty

In the men's game, this is probably the big challenge for which he is angling.

 

[mpg_29]

19 minutes ago, costarg said:

I'm siding with @dyslexic nam on this one.  Have you seen this board during games?  Or even once the 11 are posted?  The amount of "WTFs" posted are ridiculous and greatly out number the "wow, this guy is having a great game", "did you see that?".  And It's not even close.

I agree Herdman was making lots of changes at the GC, but nothing close to game changing or even formation.  It just looked like a team playing a friendly.  Every single player swap was clearly pre-planned and most of us were scratching our heads.

But this is my point...it's mostly desperate fan noise and not based in reality. It's easy to scream "WTF!" but they rarely say who they would sub on for the "problem player" and if they do it isn't convincing/doesn't make sense for the position. 

A lot of the analysis on here is without nuance. People have the top players on paper in their heads while ignoring that we lack depth in certain positions particularly the CM and CB positions. So when a CM or CB is tired the choice is not nearly as easy as this forum makes it out to be. This is why you see a player like Fraser come on...yet this forum has hissyfits and is incapable of understanding why it's the case.

[InglewoodJack]

57 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Is this a pro-Herdman argument or not?

It's a neutral post. I don't think a better coach would've taken us much farther, and I don't think a worse coach would've prevented us from accomplishing anything we have. His contributions to the growth of the game in Canada are undeniable, and he should rightfully go down as one of the great builders in Canadian soccer history, but I'm not too concerned with the difference between us signing Ancelotti or Smyrniotis. Think it's the players who need to be better.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

24 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

It's a neutral post. I don't think a better coach would've taken us much farther, and I don't think a worse coach would've prevented us from accomplishing anything we have. His contributions to the growth of the game in Canada are undeniable, and he should rightfully go down as one of the great builders in Canadian soccer history, but I'm not too concerned with the difference between us signing Ancelotti or Smyrniotis. Think it's the players who need to be better.

I disagree.  I want Herdman to stay and think he can mature but one specific situation - the handling of Davies could have made us much better.  Specifically could have made the player better. I think we need a strong guiding hand in that situation going forward.

Edited August 22, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[BearcatSA]

15 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Herdman wanted to transition to coaching the men's game, I don't think he has any interest in going back to women's soccer.

If truly so, and he's looking for that next challenge, the Portland gig is now free so maybe his name geys brought up for there.  

I just don't see anything beyond TFC at this point and I feel that that job might be combined into a dual one with his current gig.

 

 

 

 

[jonovision]

2 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

If truly so, and he's looking for that next challenge, the Portland gig is now free so maybe his name geys brought up for there.  

I just don't see anything beyond TFC at this point and I feel that that job might be combined into a dual one with his current gig.

You'd have to go pretty far down the list of potential candidates for the job before you'd get me to agree that Herdman in a dual role is the better option. Well below the Biellos or Smyrniotises of the word.

[InglewoodJack]

15 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I disagree.  I want Herdman to stay and think he can mature but one specific situation - the handling of Davies could have made us much better.  Specifically could have made the player better. I think we need a strong guiding hand in that situation going forward.

How do you reckon?

If Herdman stays, improves, and we get a whole redemption arc, good. That would be awesome. But if this is where the road ends for him, so be it, and I look forward to giving a chance to whoever replaces him.

[BearcatSA]

Just now, jonovision said:

You'd have to go pretty far down the list of potential candidates for the job before you'd get me to agree that Herdman in a dual role is the better option. Well below the Biellos or Smyrniotises of the word.

I agree, but I can see him angling for that situatiion.

[jonovision]

1 minute ago, BearcatSA said:

I agree, but I can see him angling for that situatiion.

If he's going to spend 75% of his time with TFC he should only be earning 25% of his Canada Soccer salary.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Just now, InglewoodJack said:

How do you reckon?

If Herdman stays, improves, and we get a whole redemption arc, good. That would be awesome. But if this is where the road ends for him, so be it, and I look forward to giving a chance to whoever replaces him.

If Davies isn't flipped around to different positions, given a free role that his creativity level at this point does not warrant and is allowed to do whatever other things he wants to try to help the team, Davies is overall a better player for Canada. In my opinion.  Davies at Bayern has a role, and then can burst out of that on occasion but he has a clear defined role. 

I am also not going to burn my Vs merchandise in a funeral pyre if he goes but I think him staying is the best option and he can improve along with the players. 

[BearcatSA]

2 minutes ago, jonovision said:

If he's going to spend 75% of his time with TFC he should only be earning 25% of his Canada Soccer salary.

I think he needs to dip his french fries in only one ketchup (or mayonnnaise, or if you prefer) container.

[shorty]

4 minutes ago, jonovision said:

If he's going to spend 75% of his time with TFC he should only be earning 25% of his Canada Soccer salary.

Maybe that’s the play and Manning, DeVos and JH are all involved?  Manning gets a culture guy and turnaround guy, DeVos gets $ off the books and can spend elsewhere, and JH gets a new challenge and fingers in more parts of the pie without taking a pay cut. 

[jonovision]

2 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I think he needs to dip his french fries in only one ketchup (or mayonnnaise, or if you prefer) container.

Oh, certainly. I don't want any part of a part-time Herdman regime (and I'm not that thrilled about full-time Herdman either).

[BearcatSA]

1 minute ago, shorty said:

Maybe that’s the play and Manning, DeVos and JH are all involved?  Manning gets a culture guy and turnaround guy, DeVos gets $ off the books and can spend elsewhere, and JH gets a new challenge and fingers in more parts of the pie without taking a pay cut. 

Hey, you never know, right?

I totally agree with you in that he is a "next big challenge" guy, but my question is:  where would that be?  That dual thing checks boxes for a unique and higher and bigger challenge.  Don't agree with it, but just sayin'.

[InglewoodJack]

15 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

If Davies isn't flipped around to different positions, given a free role that his creativity level at this point does not warrant and is allowed to do whatever other things he wants to try to help the team, Davies is overall a better player for Canada. In my opinion.  Davies at Bayern has a role, and then can burst out of that on occasion but he has a clear defined role. 

I am also not going to burn my Vs merchandise in a funeral pyre if he goes but I think him staying is the best option and he can improve along with the players. 

Very fair, and I agree that AD needs to simplify his role for us to truly be as effective as possible. That said, that kinda speaks to one big concern I have with Herdman which is the murmurs he's lost the room. How much of Davies' free role is Herdman letting him do his thing vs. Davies just going ahead and doing whatever he pleases because as one of the best players in the world, why would he listen to a guy who has zero club experience? How could a coach with zero trophies know better than the one player on our roster who has reached the highest peaks in the sport? I guess that's getting speculative and hiring the type of coach I think Canada would have to to replace Herdman wouldn't solve the issue, but if the players are done with him, then it's time. Great players respect great coaches, and I just don't know if our best players are going to respect Herdman's tactics vs. doing what they think they should do. If AD spends an entire half playing hero ball that leads to nothing, it's not like Herdman is going to reprimand him.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Very fair, and I agree that AD needs to simplify his role for us to truly be as effective as possible. That said, that kinda speaks to one big concern I have with Herdman which is the murmurs he's lost the room. How much of Davies' free role is Herdman letting him do his thing vs. Davies just going ahead and doing whatever he pleases because as one of the best players in the world, why would he listen to a guy who has zero club experience? How could a coach with zero trophies know better than the one player on our roster who has reached the highest peaks in the sport? I guess that's getting speculative and hiring the type of coach I think Canada would have to to replace Herdman wouldn't solve the issue, but if the players are done with him, then it's time. Great players respect great coaches, and I just don't know if our best players are going to respect Herdman's tactics vs. doing what they think they should do. If AD spends an entire half playing hero ball that leads to nothing, it's not like Herdman is going to reprimand him.

All of that is valid, rumours taken as rumours of course. 

 I don't see us being able to attract a big pedigree coach that Davies will respect automatically based on his record.  So you stick with Herdman and hope they grow together. 

But again, the program is not destroyed and hopefully whoever might come in does some things better. I am just not sure who that is, at the moment. 

[VinceA]

 

10 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

All of that is valid, rumours taken as rumours of course. 

 I don't see us being able to attract a big pedigree coach that Davies will respect automatically based on his record.  So you stick with Herdman and hope they grow together. 

But again, the program is not destroyed and hopefully whoever might come in does some things better. I am just not sure who that is, at the moment. 

If Davies doesn't respect whoever comes in, he can go fly a kite. 

He needs a reality check when it comes to Canada. He's our best player, but that hasn't translated to winning matches. All it has done is showcase his selfish play and hero ball that doesn't actually change any scorelines.

Edited August 22, 2023 by VinceA

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, VinceA said:

 

If Davies doesn't respect whoever comes in, he can go fly a kite. 

He needs a reality check when it comes to Canada. He's our best player, but that hasn't translated to winning matches. All it has done is showcase his selfish play and hero ball that doesn't actually change any scorelines.

What he should do and the reality are often not the same thing.  

I love so much about him and he is as close to a hometown football player as I will ever have,  but he needs to be well coached like most other players. 

[Cadeau]

It all started going south as soon as Doneil went down in Baghrein!🧐

[Bigandy]

Davies has seemed incredibly invested in the program, hes spoken very highly of JH, and hes done nothing that suggests he doesnt respect canada.  

He obviously knows hes the best player and wants to give back. He knows the program has limitations but that doesnt stop him from caring. As a BM player, he obviously understands discipline. Does he play hero ball? Yes, but thats because he wants to make a difference. He isnt doing it out of disrespect towards herdman or the program.  I think its an incredibly hot take to suggest that just because hes at a higher level than the prorgram, he would somehow disrespect it and no longer want to give back to the country that accepted him as a refugee.