Herdman new head coach

[DeRo_Is_King]

3 minutes ago, Ally McCoist said:

Bruh if Herdman leaves we are heading back to the dark ages. Actually we were already heading there to begin with but this will accelerate it.

What do you think would suffer? Tactics? Players not showing up? Players not committing? Players will lose motivation? I'm asking honestly out of interest to know what areas may need work.

Personally, I think we have a lot of quality players in the pool to still be Top 3 in Concacaf at the very least. 

[Ally McCoist]

2 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

What do you think would suffer? Tactics? Players not showing up? Players not committing? Players will lose motivation? I'm asking honestly out of interest to know what areas may need work.

Personally, I think we have a lot of quality players in the pool to still be Top 3 in Concacaf at the very least. 

All of the above.  

We would only be near the top of CONCACAF because other CONCACAF teams who have traditionally been decent (i.e. Honduras, Costa Rica) are also in a downturn at the moment.

[Colonel Green]

2 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I just find it interesting that he is not in the conversation for the very high profile and relatively lucrative USWNT gig (or is he?  Please post a link).  And depending on the person they hire, there might be another high profile gig or two that then  might become available.

Herdman wanted to transition to coaching the men's game, I don't think he has any interest in going back to women's soccer.

[DeRo_Is_King]

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Edited August 22, 2023 by DeRo_Is_King
Wrong quote.

[dyslexic nam]

5 minutes ago, Ally McCoist said:

All of the above.  

I don’t really understand this take.  You think any replacement coach would be tactically inferior to Herdman?  Or that players would choose not to represent Canada because Herdman wasn’t there?    I just don’t see that sort of influence on and off the field.  Yes, he has built a strong culture but there are signs that even the influence of that may be decreasing (and I think it is the strongest factor in his favour).  And other coaches have attracted strong dual Nats.  Zambrano was at the helm when Davies made his debut, and I would argue that played a bigger role in having David (who he played with as a youth) commit than Herdman who was  still fairly new as the coach.   Hoilett and Arfield both also signed up pre-Herdman.  

Not slagging the guy - I just don’t understand the idea that we will be worse off in every way if we lose him.  
 

[DeRo_Is_King]

16 minutes ago, Ally McCoist said:

19 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

What do you think would suffer? Tactics? Players not showing up? Players not committing? Players will lose motivation? I'm asking honestly out of interest to know what areas may need work.

Personally, I think we have a lot of quality players in the pool to still be Top 3 in Concacaf at the very least. 

Expand  

All of the above.  

We would only be near the top of CONCACAF because other CONCACAF teams who have traditionally been decent (i.e. Honduras, Costa Rica) are also in a downturn at the moment.

I respect your viewpoint. I mean, there's always a risk, but Herdman's future with the program has been a question mark for a while. That probably hasn't helped either.

And there have been strange in-game tactics and omissions from squads anyway. I don't know. It may be difficult at the start with a new manager, but change is normally difficult. That doesn't prevent it from turning out better in the long run.

Like I said, though, I get why people are concerned. It's a normal reaction. 

[Watchmen]

I wonder if Herdman was looking at 2024 as possibly his end point with the NT anyway.  I've said it before, and I'll stand by it: the Copa was his next big challenge.  And if cracks are already showing in the program (for a variety of reasons), he may have felt he wouldn't have lasted beyond that anyway.  TFC is a reasonable opportunity for him to jump to: a high spending club in a good league, and probably a core of fans that will give him a chance to build something (because a lot of blame for any problems can be deflected to Manning/past-management).  I'm not saying he'll be successful, but I don't think the club game is as open to him as he'd like it to be.  And if it doesn't work out, I don't think he'd have any trouble landing another NT gig with another country (though we can debate the quality of that country).

[The Beaver 2.0]

Wow, there've been some pretty fantastic takes on all of this, and a lot of them.

Do I feel, for the sake of the program, that this is the best time for Herdman to move on? No, not really. I feel the program still stood to benefit from his vision, drive, and organization. Having said that, if he feels he needs to move on, then it is most certainly the right time for him to do so for himself and the team. We need a coach/manager who is all-in, no matter what. Who the hell that might be, I have no idea.  I like the idea of a cat like Christiansen (Panama), to be honest.

As for why Herdman is leaving: We won't know until he tells us, but a desire to be involved day-to-day with a squad could be one, as well as more stability for his family (less travel), and perhaps also a more stable employer. (Sure, his potential new employer seems to have its head up its ass, but it has deep pockets, and the organization needs a turnaround guy, and that is Herdman to a tee. Like every employee, you want to be set up for success, and I wonder if John's lost all confidence in the CSA being that place for him. And also: opportunity to manage/coach what should be a top MLS side.)

What worries me most is that we're heading towards a WC on our turf and the CSA seems to be in disarray.

As for the culture of our existing bunch of players, I feel confident that all of the good stuff they learned from Herdman--and played a significant role in fostering--now lives in them and will inform how they go about their business for years to come. That is part of his legacy and it will now be up to the players to keep it going, which I feel they will indeed do.

[VinceA]

Considering the CSA's finances are more dead than fried chicken I feel like they'll just promote one if the assistants than actually try to get someone new.

Maybe they can go after a CPL coach.

[DeRo_Is_King]

3 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Considering the CSA's finances are more dead than fried chicken I feel like they'll just promote one if the assistants than actually try to get someone new.

Maybe they can go after a CPL coach.

Sad reality. 

[Shway]

5 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Considering the CSA's finances are more dead than fried chicken I feel like they'll just promote one if the assistants than actually try to get someone new.

Maybe they can go after a CPL coach.

I prefer this than Biello or Griffin.

I think it's the only one they can afford considering the circumstances.

[Free kick]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

More than a tactician I think we need someone who has World Cup experience, preferably someone who has advanced from the group stage.

Tactics really only became a talking point during the WC, but it was more than a tactical flaw that doomed us, it was also giving Croatia motivation necessarily. That's a lack of experience.

And to be fair to Herdman he got the tactics spot on against Belgium. Makes you wonder what could have been against Croatia despite the tactics...

But yeah, the main thing I wanted to say is that strong tactics are overrated in International soccer. Berhalter is highly tactical and he got basically just got in the way. I would take someone with a history of winning at the World Cup over a so-called tactician.

Herdman is neither but he knows the players and is obviously highly intelligent and has shown he can learn from mistakes.

It's tempting to want a fresh face but sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

I agree.   The tactics bit is always a big taking point for discussion over a few pints and its a fair discussion we all like to have.    But its really hard to truly assess prove that someone has strengths in this area unless you're actually in the locker room or training sessions.  For example,  we may rightly question the tactics in the Croatia game but what about when the team had successes, like in qualifying.   Shouldn't we give him credit for getting the tactics right in those positive results against the US or Mexico? 

Most successful international managers got their big break or opportunity because they are figure heads.  They may have been talented and popular players and that's what got them into the door of coaching.  It also helps to be a good talker (ie.: somewhat articulate) and a bullshitter with the media and the like.  Eventually you gain a reputation of being a strong tactical manager and "Reputation" is the key word.  But in short, its really about having a vision that is credible and can be properly communicated and have people buy into it.   Ask yourselves this question:   of all the coaches that you may have ever had as a player (at all possible levels of the game) are you able to remember or distinguish one from and other for their tactical acumen?   I am sure that everyone's answer is "no" and that you member more the elements of their personality and your interactions with them.   

In short, I am not saying that the tactical element is not important but lets not over rate it either.  And remember that it can be very subjective.    Plus,  this is the game of Soccer that we are talking about, not Chess and the thing that counts above anything else,  is the results.  Herdman got the results.

 

PS.:  I should clarify that watching TFC this year is good and extreme example of poor (or absence of) tactics.   But that is an extreme example of poor tactics that are visible to the naked eye.  Most other cases are not that obvious

Edited August 22, 2023 by Free kick

[Ally McCoist]

44 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I don’t really understand this take.  You think any replacement coach would be tactically inferior to Herdman?  Or that players would choose not to represent Canada because Herdman wasn’t there?    I just don’t see that sort of influence on and off the field.  Yes, he has built a strong culture but there are signs that even the influence of that may be decreasing (and I think it is the strongest factor in his favour).  And other coaches have attracted strong dual Nats.  Zambrano was at the helm when Davies made his debut, and I would argue that played a bigger role in having David (who he played with as a youth) commit than Herdman who was  still fairly new as the coach.   Hoilett and Arfield both also signed up pre-Herdman.  

Not slagging the guy - I just don’t understand the idea that we will be worse off in every way if we lose him.  
 

Because Herdman has good tactics (with the exception of a couple screw ups like Croatia) and each player in that dressing room would run through a wall for him. Fuck, I'd run through a wall for him and he doesn't even know I exist. I don't trust the CSA to appoint a new manager who will have the same influence Herdman had on the guys. The new manager is going to be someone straight out of the bargain bin you know that damn well. Think someone like Biello *shudders*

The program started turning around when Herdman joined. Do you think we'd be where we're at today if somebody else took the helm back in January 2019?  

Save this comment. With a new manager you're going to comment in two years time reminiscing about "the Herdman days".

Edited August 22, 2023 by Ally McCoist

[FreddyCanuck]

1 minute ago, Ally McCoist said:

Because Herdman has good tactics (with the exception of a couple screw ups like Croatia) and each player in that dressing room would run through a wall for him. Fuck, I'd run through a wall for him and he doesn't even know I exist. I don't trust the CSA to appoint a new manager who will have the same influence Herdman had on the guys. The new manager is going to be someone straight out of the bargain bin you know that damn well.

The program started turning around when Herdman joined. Do you think we'd be where we're at today if somebody else took the helm back in January 2019?

That's what I worry about the most: how much will the standards drop across the board if Herdman goes? That's not even factoring in the possibility of him poaching some MNT staff. I remember during qualifying, players singled out the backroom staff for their efforts many times, so clearly there are some really good people on board that JH would love to bring with him.

[Stryker911]

I honestly don't care if he leaves. I wasn't happy when he got hired in the first place. Almost every big game we have played he has made personnel or tactical errors. We have almost always started the games on the back foot, which is directly down to the manager. 

It has been mentioned before, but he did well with the women and when he left they did even better. There is no reason someone else can't take us to the next level.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I've rarely read so many recent posts, from the same day, and had such a feeling of reading a thread from months ago.

Could someone come up with a new take on Herdman, please?

 

[DeRo_Is_King]

6 minutes ago, FreddyCanuck said:

That's what I worry about the most: how much will the standards drop across the board if Herdman goes? That's not even factoring in the possibility of him poaching some MNT staff. I remember during qualifying, players singled out the backroom staff for their efforts many times, so clearly there are some really good people on board that JH would love to bring with him.

I think it's going to be important for whoever comes in to match Herdman on the things he does well (i.e. culture building, motivation).

That will make for an easier transition. Otherwise, we have the quality to still compete. And there should be interest from dual nats since we're guaranteed a spot at the next WC. It would take something monumental for this team to tank, imo. 

[FreddyCanuck]

1 minute ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

I think it's going to be important for whoever comes in to match Herdman on the things he does well (i.e. culture building, motivation).

That will make for an easier transition. Otherwise, we have the quality to still compete. And there should be interest from dual nats since we're guaranteed a spot at the next WC. It would take something monumental for this team to tank, imo. 

I hope so. At least deVos is in a position of power and will hopefully recognize/consider these factors. Plus he was on Herdman's staff AND is a former player who dealt with below par standards at times.

[Unnamed Trialist]

If we are worried about what the world will be like after Herdman leaves...frankly I don't know how to answer that question. Are we worried about the day after? Couldn't the younger fans just take a pill?

[Dominic94]

1 hour ago, Ally McCoist said:

All of the above.  

We would only be near the top of CONCACAF because other CONCACAF teams who have traditionally been decent (i.e. Honduras, Costa Rica) are also in a downturn at the moment.

Herdman is leaving. 
 

it may not be for TFC but don’t kid yourself, he is leaving.

his people expressed interest in the job, that’s not a committed manager. This isn’t the first move he has tried to make, NZ and England women.

[Unnamed Trialist]

One of the most depressing things to read on this board are the enthusiastic long lists of fairly good former players with no coaching experience at any level of merit who could surely fill the role of NT coach and save us money at the same time.

[VinceA]

Would be interesting if the CSA told Herdman after the WC there'd be very few games outside official windows this cycle and there would be reduced time in camp for those official games and that sealed the deal for him.

Edited August 22, 2023 by VinceA

[narduch]

17 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I've rarely read so many recent posts, from the same day, and had such a feeling of reading a thread from months ago.

Could someone come up with a new take on Herdman, please?

 

I can't keep up with all the new posts, but did anyone mention the rumour that Herdman has lost the room?

Maybe he's leaving now before it gets worse.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I'd let CSB hire the next coach, giving them a commission on the signing, of course.

[FreddyCanuck]

1 minute ago, VinceA said:

Would be interesting if the CSA told Herdman after the WC there'd be very few games outside official windows and there would be reduced time in camp for those official games and that sealed the deal for him.

I'd bet a sizeable amount of money that when he was informed there'd be no September friendlies and there'd only be one in October, he told his agent: "that's it, get me out."

He was already on the brink after the Nations League and he specifically mentioned facing elite opponents as something the team needed.