Herdman new head coach

[frmr]

5 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Personally, I'd like to see a former CMNT player and leader take the helm. They would know the history, be able to communicate, and I suspect have that passion to go out and win it all.

All those years playing teams in Central America, getting piss bags thrown at them, dealing with ridiculous officials, etc. A guy who's been through that will relish the opportunity to make the team successful.

He will fully understand what it means, because he remembers the days when all the naysayers thought the CMNT was garbo despite winning a Gold Cup to little fanfare. A guy like that would have something to prove. 

I disagree. If we do move on from Herdman we need a modern tactician who can win the important games. Herdman already taught the boys how to be fearless and they've already shown they can conquer Concacaf. If anything, most of Concacaf now fears us. But the next step is winning trophies and beating World Cup opponents. I'm not sure who's available that has that kind of resume though, which is why I'm very apprehensive about Herdman leaving.

[jonovision]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

I'll add onto your point, his acquisition of duals is some of the best weve ever had. I would be content with JH limited tactical acumen (which is not abosulely horrible) if it means we get koleosho, LDF, Jebbo etc.  However, maybe JH has gotten the guys we expected to get and lost the ones we expected to lose...  

Which dual did he bring into the fold that had a meaningful impact on the team in the last 4 years? Ugbo was big news at the time, but he's accomplished nothing with Canada. Eustaquio, maybe, but he was never really on any other country's radar.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, frmr said:

I disagree. If we do move on from Herdman we need a modern tactician who can win the important games. Herdman already taught the boys how to be fearless and they've already shown they can conquer Concacaf. If anything, most of Concacaf now fears us. But the next step is winning trophies and beating World Cup opponents. I'm not sure who's available that has that kind of resume though, which is why I'm very apprehensive about Herdman leaving.

More than a tactician I think we need someone who has World Cup experience, preferably someone who has advanced from the group stage.

Tactics really only became a talking point during the WC, but it was more than a tactical flaw that doomed us, it was also giving Croatia motivation necessarily. That's a lack of experience.

And to be fair to Herdman he got the tactics spot on against Belgium. Makes you wonder what could have been against Croatia despite the tactics...

But yeah, the main thing I wanted to say is that strong tactics are overrated in International soccer. Berhalter is highly tactical and he got basically just got in the way. I would take someone with a history of winning at the World Cup over a so-called tactician.

Herdman is neither but he knows the players and is obviously highly intelligent and has shown he can learn from mistakes.

It's tempting to want a fresh face but sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Which dual did he bring into the fold that had a meaningful impact on the team in the last 4 years? Ugbo was big news at the time, but he's accomplished nothing with Canada. Eustaquio, maybe, but he was never really on any other country's radar.

Theres quite a list actually. We can debate on a guy like loturi as he was never likely to play for south sudan so its not really credit to herdman. But if we are just objective about a quantity of dual national eleigble players then the list is pretty decent. 
1. Staq
2. David
3. Corbeanu
4. Ugbo
5. Spoony
6. ZMG
7. Tom Mcgill - pending cap
8. Ahmed 
9. Loturi 
10. Kone
11. Akinola

If you look at major captures, you have staq, david, and kone. Alot of the other guys are supporting cast players but still quite valuable to have them in the pool of players. 

[mpg_29]

This is still a weird move to me. Club football is much more unforgiving and he has never coached club football at this level before? He seems like a person that would take risk but isn't dumb...they must be offering him the salary/assurances/authority that he would not just be out in a couple months time if things don't go well.

Edited August 21, 2023 by mpg_29

[DeRo_Is_King]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

More than a tactician I think we need someone who has World Cup experience, preferably someone who has advanced from the group stage.

Not a bad idea, but I'm thinking realistically given our resources. Others have talked about bringing in a big name, but really, where are the resources? That's the concern I have. 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Not a bad idea, but I'm thinking realistically given our resources. Others have talked about bringing in a big name, but really, where are the resources? That's the concern I have. 

For sure. With our budget it will be someone who got a team out of the group stage in like 2010 and has recently been coaching in the Icelandic league.

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Theres quite a list actually. We can debate on a guy like loturi as he was never likely to play for south sudan so its not really credit to herdman. But if we are just objective about a quantity of dual national eleigble players then the list is pretty decent. 
1. Staq
2. David
3. Corbeanu
4. Ugbo
5. Spoony
6. ZMG
7. Tom Mcgill - pending cap
8. Ahmed 
9. Loturi 
10. Kone
11. Akinola

If you look at major captures, you have staq, david, and kone. Alot of the other guys are supporting cast players but still quite valuable to have them in the pool of players. 

I am not sure I consider most of those guys major coups - not because they aren’t quality but because they many were always most likely to choose Canada.  David may have had other options but he clearly feels hugely Canadian and spent his formative years here.  Staq was not on Portugal’s radar - though admittedly grabbing him after his ACL injury was shrewd (credit for being opportunistic).  He deserves credit for Kone for sure - he is a gem and it was good to get him on board early.  

If we are being balanced, we have also lost a bunch under his tenure.  Having said that, I do respect the efforts he goes to.  The universal narrative from players is that he is in touch with them, clearly articulated their potential role within the squad, and offers them opportunities when he feels it is warranted.  To me that is the right approach and about all we can do when we don’t exactly have the pedigree to be a target destination for many.  
 

[Bigandy]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

More than a tactician I think we need someone who has World Cup experience, preferably someone who has advanced from the group stage.

Tactics really only became a talking point during the WC, but it was more than a tactical flaw that doomed us, it was also giving Croatia motivation necessarily. That's a lack of experience.

 

Compare Van Gaal and Ancelotti. Van Gaal is a disciple of tactics. Probably one of the most tactical coaches of all time.... but he's not a winner. 

Ancelotti (obviously is world class so hes tactical compared to JH), is not a tactics first driven coach (or at least to the extent of Van Gaal). He's a winner though with experience.  

[SpursFlu]

Now is the time to make a change. Neville will get us in to Copa America. It's all good. Look around and make a permanent decision early in 2024

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not sure I consider most of those guys major coups - not because they aren’t quality but because they many were always most likely to choose Canada.  David may have had other options but he clearly feels hugely Canadian and spent his formative years here.  Staq was not on Portugal’s radar - though admittedly grabbing him after his ACL injury was shrewd (credit for being opportunistic).  He deserves credit for Kone for sure - he is a gem and it was good to get him on board early.  

If we are being balanced, we have also lost a bunch under his tenure.  Having said that, I do respect the efforts he goes to.  The universal narrative from players is that he is in touch with them, clearly articulated their potential role within the squad, and offers them opportunities when he feels it is warranted.  To me that is the right approach and about all we can do when we don’t exactly have the pedigree to be a target destination for many.  
 

Theres for sure some debate on how difficult it is to recruit these guys but my eye test tells me that we have recruited better than in the past. Guys are being identified (morris, ZMG) much more often and earlier than in previous years. Sure corbeanu and akinola have not really contributed yet but there was a time we didnt know if we would get them. 

[Shway]

What makes you think we could afford a coach with that pedigree?

I rather more budget being available for more camps, then a glamorous coach. The most they could do is influence  duals. I don't feel Ancelotti would revolutionize us.....(plus he's already going to Brazil)

[trc2014]

39 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Personally, I'd like to see a former CMNT player and leader take the helm. They would know the history, be able to communicate, and I suspect have that passion to go out and win it all.

All those years playing teams in Central America, getting piss bags thrown at them, dealing with ridiculous officials, etc. A guy who's been through that will relish the opportunity to make the team successful.

He will fully understand what it means, because he remembers the days when all the naysayers thought the CMNT was garbo despite winning a Gold Cup to little fanfare. A guy like that would have something to prove. 

Yeah that went well with Dale Mitchell.

[SpursFlu]

I think coaches are overrated anyways. I'll take good players over a good coach any day

[DeRo_Is_King]

13 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

Yeah that went well with Dale Mitchell.

Probably the worst example of what I'm talking about. I forgot to mention that it should be someone who played in a top league. 

[bwilly11]

Kind of unrelated - I'd love to see how John would do with the mess at TFC. Dare I say it, I think he might be able to finally utilize the youth system and develop players better than past managers. I'd take that as a future contribution to the CMNT. Anything good at TFC should benefit the national program.

If we can somehow get a new manager that takes what John built and brings us to the next level, then maybe this is a win-win for Canada soccer. 

Also, maybe if Neville fills in temporarily he can sway Jebbison that he will never have a chance at the Three Lions! (kidding)

[MtlMario]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Wasn't MDS accused of not playing Canadians?  How would that work for CANMNT?

I'm not saying he's our best option but he's been saying for years that he would love to be our mens coach. That should mean something and maybe it would be easier (cheaper) to get him. Pechiosolido also was interested before but I do not know if he still is (agent now). There is also the possibility some lesser known coach will come in knowing our talent, hosting the next W/C, making a name for himself for the future. Anyways if it's not TFC I think he's leaving anyways.

 

 

 

[DeRo_Is_King]

1 minute ago, MtlMario said:

Pechiosolido also was interested before but I do not know if he still is (agent now).

This is an interesting name to me. Hasn't coached in a while, but should be considered if interested. 

[BearcatSA]

I just find it interesting that he is not in the conversation for the very high profile and relatively lucrative USWNT gig (or is he?  Please post a link).  And depending on the person they hire, there might be another high profile gig or two that then  might become available.

If it's in the men's game, it's TFC only, not another club or NT, and I think TFC under Manning (and Hernandez, unless they jettison him, too, and give Herdman  Bradley's former job duties in the gig) is a bad move for him.

Edited August 21, 2023 by BearcatSA

[FreddyCanuck]

This is (arguably?) the most important moment in the program's history.

There are so many layers to Herdman leaving, from the possible culture change (especially if he isn't replaced by an assistant), to the brotherhood and everything in between. The fact there are few games between now and Copa América (if we qualify) doesn't help matters either.

But it's equally fascinating if he stays. If you're starting to lose the room already, as the Athletic article says, flirt with the idea of leaving, then do a u-turn and stick around, surely that'll stick in the craw of the senior players/leaders. Then your credibility takes a huge hit.

Yes, reporters can make a mountain out of a molehill and agents can use the media as a leveraging tool. Herdman could potentially speak his way out of it by saying it was taken out of proportion. But given what's trickled out RE: his representatives reaching out to TFC, it'll be really tricky.

This is why I'm absolutely petrified of what's next. Either way, we're at a crossroads.

Edited August 21, 2023 by FreddyCanuck

[Ed_S]

From my perspective, I'd say Junior Hoilett finally opting to rep Canada had a bigger influence on dual nationals committing to us than Herdman.

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Theres quite a list actually. We can debate on a guy like loturi as he was never likely to play for south sudan so its not really credit to herdman. But if we are just objective about a quantity of dual national eleigble players then the list is pretty decent. 
1. Staq
2. David
3. Corbeanu
4. Ugbo
5. Spoony
6. ZMG
7. Tom Mcgill - pending cap
8. Ahmed 
9. Loturi 
10. Kone
11. Akinola

If you look at major captures, you have staq, david, and kone. Alot of the other guys are supporting cast players but still quite valuable to have them in the pool of players. 

Aside from Corbeanu was there any of these that was in danger of committing elsewhere? 
 

I don’t know how much the coach will realistically affect dual nationals committing unless it’s a celebrity/legendary coach. Players wanna play for good teams and functional organizations. Even if the next coach is Peter Galindo, if he gets results then players will come. 

[Jack1997]

2 hours ago, Shway said:

Is the guy for the future. 

A lot of guys in the current program are familiar with him and respect him.

May I ask who this is?

[DeRo_Is_King]

17 minutes ago, Jack1997 said:

3 hours ago, Shway said:

Is the guy for the future. 

A lot of guys in the current program are familiar with him and respect him.

May I ask who this is?

Bobby Smyrniotis. 

[Ally McCoist]

Bruh if Herdman leaves we are heading back to the dark ages. Actually we were already heading there to begin with but this will accelerate it.