Herdman new head coach

[Dominic94]

I think he really did do wonders for the program, it can’t be denied. However, he also seems to know when it’s time to leave and the reality is he had taken the women, and now the men, as far as he can.

 

i don’t think he will win with TFC, but he will get them back to respectability.

 

also the reality is, he’s always wanted a shot at men’s club football.

[trc2014]

Have a feeling Biello or Tenllado will simply step up.  If Tenllado does, have a feeling the team culture won’t be impacted.

[MauditYvon]

Marc Dos Santos? I always liked him.

[canuckgbp]

Is this a way for him to put pressure on the CSA and the players to figure shit out? Realistically we can’t get anyone better suited to take us into 2026. Maybe he is just using whatever leverage he thinks he has.
 

You know the lack of friendlies are killing him. And likewise the boycott of the previous friendlies (and the monetary ramifications of them) also hurt him. 
 

Maybe he feels like he is on an island in all of this. 
 

 

[InglewoodJack]

The thing that concerns me the most about this isn't losing Herdman but what losing him means- ie this guy who has had a massive part in building up our program basically giving up on Canada Soccer- justifiable of course, but if Herdman is ready to move on, especially if it's an MLS move, and an MLS move to a team in absolute shambles, that says a lot about his desire to leave- the article also says that he was the one who reached out to them.

As for how it affects us, I'm mostly of the mind at this point that Herdman has taken us as far as he can, and now it's time to have someone take us to the next step. That would obviously mean hiring a coach with more high end club experience- someone who the players would respect because of his accomplishments. I've always wondered how much guys like Davies, David, so on, who have won at club level respect Herdman, who is a pure academic, vs. a coach who has been in the trenches of elite club soccer. Realistically though, we're probably looking at Biello or Smyrniotis; kinda intrigued by Smyrniotis' potential because he's excelled at every level and is a great Canadian success story, but I can't say that Herdman moving on gives me much hope for the next few years of Canada Soccer.

I don't fault him though. I hope he does well at TFC, moves to a bigger club and eventually finds his way over to England. Hell, timing might sync up for Southgate to leave, and his successor gets fired just as Herdman is wrapping up his time at TFC, and maybe he gets the England job. I wish him well, and if this really is the end, he's given us all he's got. Man should get his statue at the national team training ground that will never get built.

[frmr]

Can't really blame him tbh. Canada Soccer can't even schedule him games to play. It's probably out of sheer fucking boredom that he wants to move on.

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, jonovision said:

What is the "culture" of this group that we can't afford to lose. The "brotherhood" was fun and all, but started to show cracks as soon as we weren't winning every single game.

The brotherhood thing may be overblown but same goes for the claims the culture is cracking. And whatever degree we think team culture is cracking...well it is only going to be exasperated by the departure of Herdman, in my humble opinion. 

17 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I agree about the motivation and team ethos.  We haven’t had that in our program before and it has clearly helped.  But I do think the importance of it vs tactical acumen shifts over time as a group of players gets more established.  With the talent pool we have, I would argue that it may be less about getting them pumped up and trust-falling your way into a brotherhood, and more about scouting opponents that require excellent tactics and drilled discipline to break down and overcome.  

Interesting point. In an ideal world we'd be more focused on getting the tactics right and less on the motivation at this stage in the groups development. My worry is that tactics count for little if you don't have a group who wants to fight for each other. 

With players apparently not seeing eye to eye on the off field issues, things can fall apart even with Herdman around, let alone if he leaves. We desperately need stability and the last thing we need is a coaching change, especially considering we probably don't have the money for someone better than Herdman.

[Dominic94]

Couple of things:

Herdmans got a big deal, overpaid for his caliber of coach.

we can get a better coach for that money, and there are better coaches available for less in our backyard. 

finally, he really upset a lot of players with his selection and burned some credibility by not giving Atiba a send off sub late game against the US.. 

The players won’t be upset if he’s leaving, he also approached TFC…. So he is on the way out be it with TFC or elsewhere.

Finally, I do not think he will do too well at the MLS level, even with resources…

[Shway]

There's never a right time to say good bye, and it looks like Herdman is making the first move cause if he doesn't we might start not liking him. Baring all his successes, he probably doesn't feel the same way he once felt about Canada soccer association and he'll make it a "it's not you it's me".

I'm not worried, the time has come.

Getting him off the books for a cheaper option might allow more camps. And we aren't bringing in anyone glamorous, so a domestic coach who knows the players will likely make the decision.

I'm team Bobby Smyrniotis.

[MauditYvon]

Also, with the heavy schedule incoming until WC26, it would be a good timing to part ways now.

Edited August 21, 2023 by MauditYvon

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, MauditYvon said:

Also, with the heavy schedule incoming until WC26, it would be a good timing to part ways now.

This is a very good point. 

[costarg]

43 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am really not stressing about this one. I like Herdman. He had done well.  But he has done it with generational talents that no other modern Canadian manager has had access to.  He did really well during WCQ but he has also stumbled on more than one occasion.  He has had some really bright moments and some that seem to be easily identified as mistakes.  I think he is an excellent motivator but a mediocre tactician.  

Can we do better than him with a small salary package?  Odds aren’t great that we get the next Ancelotti (or the old one for that matter).  But could we find someone who can match Herdman’s tactical acumen?  Or maybe even be a bit more shrewd when it comes to our approach to games (and in-game substitutions)?  I don’t think that is outside the realm of possibility.   I have always maintained that a reasonable tactician, with the talent we now have at our disposal, may have been able to mirror the accomplishment of making the WC.   

Again, not wishing him out.  He managed to get us to the big show and that deserves credit.  And I am happy to keep on trucking with him if his heart is still in it.  But I am not going to clutch my pearls and tremble at the thought of him leaving.  There is a very real chance that someone else could be better at certain (important) elements of that role.  

Herdman stays?   Cool.  Let’s keep on truckin.  

Herdman decides to drink from the poisoned chalice that is TFC?  Ok - good luck to you.  You may need it.  

 

This is exactly it.  I'm ok either way, Herdman has done his job and an excellent one at that.  He's gotten us far and out of the dark ages.  We have the talent, the guys have the experience and belief in themselves and team mates. 

Guys might not be willing to run through brick walls for the next coach, but they will be able to give their best on-field performances in their most suitable positions without needing to master 3D chess.

Minus 2 points motivationally, plus 2 points tactically.

[costarg]

19 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

Marc Dos Santos? I always liked him.

Wasn't MDS accused of not playing Canadians?  How would that work for CANMNT?

[DeRo_Is_King]

I agree that culture is important and Herdman has proven it. I hope the next coach brings the same amount of passion.

With that said, I think it was truly difficult for him to fail, given the amazing talent we now have. His tactics, squad selections and in-game changes have left me scratching my head multiple times. I'm looking forward to seeing how a new coach handles this group and the choices he makes. Surely, it can be better.

Also, I am concerned for Herdman if he indeed lands at TFC. The team does not have the same quality or depth. It will be a much more difficult task, and I'm afraid his shortcomings may be exposed considerably. 

 

 

[MauditYvon]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

Wasn't MDS accused of not playing Canadians?  How would that work for CANMNT?

He would bring us all the duals we want 🙏

[Shway]

Is the guy for the future. 

A lot of guys in the current program are familiar with him and respect him.

[jonovision]

I'd like to be rid of Smyrniotis as an opponent in CPL, sure, but I'd also like to see how he does a coach in a league where his team doesn't have by far the most talent.

[frmr]

15 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Couple of things:

Herdmans got a big deal, overpaid for his caliber of coach.

we can get a better coach for that money, and there are better coaches available for less in our backyard. 

finally, he really upset a lot of players with his selection and burned some credibility by not giving Atiba a send off sub late game against the US.. 

The players won’t be upset if he’s leaving, he also approached TFC…. So he is on the way out be it with TFC or elsewhere.

Finally, I do not think he will do too well at the MLS level, even with resources…

I mean, he pretty much single-handedly revitalized the program, so I don't think I would say he was overpaid. What he accomplished was worth every penny and many people wouldn't have had the drive/energy/patience to do what he did. If the rest of Canada Soccer were up to his level, we would still be flying right right now.

I would be interested to hear what coaches you think would be better for that amount or less though. In my eyes, it's slim pickings and I'm prepared to be extremely underwhelmed with his replacement. I agree that we're at a position now where we could use a tactician to get the most out of our talented squad. Success on the pitch will hopefully lead to success off it, since Canada Soccer can't seem to manage that on their own.

[jonovision]

4 minutes ago, frmr said:

I mean, he pretty much single-handedly revitalized the program, so I don't think I would say he was overpaid. What he accomplished was worth every penny and many people wouldn't have had the drive/energy/patience to do what he did. If the rest of Canada Soccer were up to his level, we would still be flying right right now.

I would be interested to hear what coaches you think would be better for that amount or less though. In my eyes, it's slim pickings and I'm prepared to be extremely underwhelmed with his replacement. I agree that we're at a position now where we could use a tactician to get the most out of our talented squad. Success on the pitch will hopefully lead to success off it, since Canada Soccer can't seem to manage that on their own.

Entirely hypothetical: If Panama manager Thomas Christiansen took over the Canadian program instead of Herdman, would he have done any worse with the talent at his disposal?

[DeRo_Is_King]

Personally, I'd like to see a former CMNT player and leader take the helm. They would know the history, be able to communicate, and I suspect have that passion to go out and win it all.

All those years playing teams in Central America, getting piss bags thrown at them, dealing with ridiculous officials, etc. A guy who's been through that will relish the opportunity to make the team successful.

He will fully understand what it means, because he remembers the days when all the naysayers thought the CMNT was garbo despite winning a Gold Cup to little fanfare. A guy like that would have something to prove. 

[frmr]

Just now, jonovision said:

Entirely hypothetical: If Panama manager Thomas Christiansen took over the Canadian program instead of Herdman, would he have done any worse with the talent at his disposal?

Honestly, probably. Because at the time we needed an identity shift and while I'm not saying nobody else could have done that as well as he did, I think he did that job wonderfully. Yes he made his mistakes and was probably outclassed in the WC, but the "take no prisoners" attitude that he instilled was exactly what the doctor ordered when we needed it most. So to answer your question, I don't know, but I think Herdman was the right man for the job at the time. We'll see how it all pans out.

[Shway]

12 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I'd like to be rid of Smyrniotis as an opponent in CPL, sure, but I'd also like to see how he does a coach in a league where his team doesn't have by far the most talent.

sounding like a bitter hater lol

[RojitoTO]

Herdman isn't an elite tactician and he really exposed his ineptitude in Qatar.  Not designating a spot kicker and leaving it up to his players, the dismal formation he used against Croatia knowing their midfield prowess, and foolishly saying F*$*k Croatia prior to their match highlighted his lack of stripes. If we as fans, Soccer Canada and our coaches (Herdman included) expect our players to be playing at the highest level possible in the best leagues then we should have that same expectation of our coach. Herdman hasn't proven himself in a respectable, top league before. Truth be told he's young and inexperienced and has much to learn. I think he has hit his ceiling with what he currently can give and has taken the team and program as far as he can and it's best to hand the baton to someone who can take the team to the next level. It is possible because it's much like recruiting players at optimum value, before they hit their prime or when they're in the twilight of their careers. Can we identify an exceptional young coach that is under the radar and is seeking to prove themselves as mangers and would find our Canadian project as interesting and attractive? Kompany and De Zerbi were given a shot and they excelled.  Or maybe there's a coach in the twilight or in their pre retirement phase who aren't seeking optimal projects. Guus Hiddink is happy to be on the Aussie coaching staff.  I know i'm throwing out some big names and I like to dream and we may not get a notable manager, but I do think we can recruit a better coach with competent scouting. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by RojitoTO

[jonovision]

4 minutes ago, Shway said:

sounding like a bitter hater lol

There's a very good chance Smyrniotis is a great tactical coach but he gets to compete in CPL on easy mode. No shade, really, as the better collection of talent on his team is down to all of the connections he's built over the years. Not sure that works as much at higher levels or in a different location.

Edited August 21, 2023 by jonovision

[Bigandy]

59 minutes ago, jonovision said:

What is the "culture" of this group that we can't afford to lose. The "brotherhood" was fun and all, but started to show cracks as soon as we weren't winning every single game.

Its how he got rid of cliques within the camp and got all of our top players (except arfield) to buy into the program and play games in bad conditions. If we lose this culture, we may not see david or davies play against el salvador or haiti etc.  Obviously you can expand the defintion of culture and say the next coach will get this but for me, the biggest cultural non tangible at risk is buy in. 

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Wish I was a chill about the situation. 

I think we are in real trouble without Herdman. For all of the question marks about his tactics, he's done extremely well to create and grow a team culture and I fear that will go poof without him at the helm. 

Consider the shit storm in Canadian Soccer and now consider having someone other than John leading the way.... Things can and will unravel rapidly. 

I for one will take the tactical gambles in exchange for keeping the culture of this group intact. There is no guarantee Neville or anyone else can keep things moving along. I don't know Herdman personally, but I really believe he is one-of-a-kind with respect to fostering a team identity.

I'll add onto your point, his acquisition of duals is some of the best weve ever had. I would be content with JH limited tactical acumen (which is not abosulely horrible) if it means we get koleosho, LDF, Jebbo etc.  However, maybe JH has gotten the guys we expected to get and lost the ones we expected to lose...