Herdman new head coach

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

10 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

...should we be worried about how far Herdman can take our boys when it comes to playing top teams and the tactical prowess needed to succeed? 

Think it was already obvious he was a bit out of his depth once he got to Qatar.

[PegCityCam]

23 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Think it was already obvious he was a bit out of his depth once he got to Qatar.

"A bit" is one thing...I'm just wondering how much (if any) concern we should have after seeing how pathetically our women performed and how woefully underprepared they looked.

[MrR]

With the exception of an international friendly against Iceland that was played in the United States, it does not appear that Herdman has the connections necessary to arrange friendlies in Europe. I'm sure crying-for-attention blurts like "F Croatia" don't attract much interest beyond the ridicule on the front page of a Croatian tabloid.

[GasPed]

1 hour ago, PegCityCam said:

I know there are numerous issues with the program but if Priestman is his protégé and clearly his favored successor then should we be worried about how far Herdman can take our boys when it comes to playing top teams and the tactical prowess needed to succeed? 

I think the big question with the CWNT is whether they lack talent, tactics or motivation.  A good coach can help with the latter two, but not the first one.  And I'll be honest, I think it may be the first one that is the biggest problem.  For that matter, it may well be the same with the CMNT. 

[PegCityCam]

5 hours ago, GasPed said:

I think the big question with the CWNT is whether they lack talent, tactics or motivation.  A good coach can help with the latter two, but not the first one.  And I'll be honest, I think it may be the first one that is the biggest problem.  For that matter, it may well be the same with the CMNT. 

Is it lack of talent though? Serious question. I suppose I was under the impression that we have numerous women balling out at the top but I also have to admit I don't follow any of their careers close enough to know. As to tactics and motivation while watching Japan I was in awe of not only their technical ability on the ball/pin-point passing/clinical striking but their complete buy-in to thre game plan...just pure confidence in what they needed to do to win and also the fact that that confidence spilled over into every aspect of their game. Canada had NONE of that.

[Colonel Green]

19 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

Is it lack of talent though? Serious question. I suppose I was under the impression that we have numerous women balling out at the top but I also have to admit I don't follow any of their careers close enough to know. As to tactics and motivation while watching Japan I was in awe of not only their technical ability on the ball/pin-point passing/clinical striking but their complete buy-in to thre game plan...just pure confidence in what they needed to do to win and also the fact that that confidence spilled over into every aspect of their game. Canada had NONE of that.

There isn't anybody on the current WNT who are high-level scoring talents at club level. Many/most of the forwards aren't even starters at club level. 

7 hours ago, MrR said:

With the exception of an international friendly against Iceland that was played in the United States, it does not appear that Herdman has the connections necessary to arrange friendlies in Europe. I'm sure crying-for-attention blurts like "F Croatia" don't attract much interest beyond the ridicule on the front page of a Croatian tabloid.

Arranging friendlies in Europe is about $$$, not connections. Big teams aren't going to agree to play us just because a coach asks.

[MrR]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Arranging friendlies in Europe is about $$$, not connections. Big teams aren't going to agree to play us just because a coach asks.

In Europe isn't customary for a Football Association that desires to host an international friendly to extend an invitation to another Football Association?

The same holds true in club football. Erik ten Hag isn't asking to play international friendlies aboard during the summer to prepare for the Premiership season. Manchester United and other top clubs get invited to play aboard for very large sums of money.

How many invitations do you think John Herdman is receiving from European Football Associations?

[Colonel Green]

16 minutes ago, MrR said:

In Europe isn't customary for a Football Association that desires to host an international friendly to extend an invitation to another Football Association?

The same holds true in club football. Erik ten Hag isn't asking to play international friendlies aboard during the summer to prepare for the Premiership season. Manchester United and other top clubs get invited to play aboard for very large sums of money.

How many invitations do you think John Herdman is receiving from European Football Associations?

We missed out on friendlies that would have actually paid us money because the federation couldn’t afford it.

The thing that is stopping us from arranging friendlies with European teams is not a lack of invitations, it is that we cannot afford the multi-million dollar appearance fees (and also the Nations League schedules, of course).

Edited August 2, 2023 by Colonel Green

[GasPed]

1 hour ago, PegCityCam said:

Is it lack of talent though? Serious question. I suppose I was under the impression that we have numerous women balling out at the top but I also have to admit I don't follow any of their careers close enough to know. As to tactics and motivation while watching Japan I was in awe of not only their technical ability on the ball/pin-point passing/clinical striking but their complete buy-in to thre game plan...just pure confidence in what they needed to do to win and also the fact that that confidence spilled over into every aspect of their game. Canada had NONE of that.

Completely agree with the Japan assessment.  But tactically they're miles ahead because technically they're miles ahead.  You cannot execute a gameplan or implement patterns in possession or get sightlines and play through balls, when every time you touch the ball in bounces off you like a beach ball, or every time you pass it you miss your target by 3 yards. 

And to be honest, I don't have much faith in Priestman's tactics or coaching, largely because I really couldn't discern any tactics/coaching in the games that I saw.  But at this point, I have to give her the benefit of the doubt and say it was because the players were just not playing with the kind of consistent quality you need for tactics to become evident.  I mean I don't think Pep Guardiola could've coached a winning effort out of this side against Australia.

 

 

[An Observer]

4 minutes ago, GasPed said:

Completely agree with the Japan assessment.  But tactically they're miles ahead because technically they're miles ahead.  You cannot execute a gameplan or implement patterns in possession or get sightlines and play through balls, when every time you touch the ball in bounces off you like a beach ball, or every time you pass it you miss your target by 3 yards. 

And to be honest, I don't have much faith in Priestman's tactics or coaching, largely because I really couldn't discern any tactics/coaching in the games that I saw.  But at this point, I have to give her the benefit of the doubt and say it was because the players were just not playing with the kind of consistent quality you need for tactics to become evident.  I mean I don't think Pep Guardiola could've coached a winning effort out of this side against Australia.

 

 

I dont watch a lot of women's football but I was shocked at the poor skills of the Canadian team in the 3 group matches.  When i watched other sides, they could string passes together, break down the press, move into space, etc.  Our girls frequently couldn't do any of that.  i would see them pass it around the back and then for example Buchanan have all the time in the world and pass the ball right to an opponent instead of Riviere or Quinn.  Or Lawrence lose the ball on the sidelines countless times when all she had to do was pass it to a wide open Grosso.  Or one of the CBs or central mids just boot the ball over the top about 25 yards from any Canadian right to the keeper.  Again, when they had all the time in the world.  The first half of the first match I thought it was misjuding the wind and they would eventually get their trajectory but it never change in any of the matches in any of the halves. When we had possession, we were slow and methodical with it and teams just sat back and let our CBs play with it as they knew that they would either eventually pass it to them or if the CB would put into one of the midfielders, they would press them and take it away from them before they could make a simple pass or turn with the ball and beat them.  And then counter and our defense would be all over the place. It was kinda like the keystone cops back there on any counter. 

I thought we did a good job of pressing the opposing teams CBs and mids and winning the ball back quickly but when we got it, we never did anything with it and usually just lost it ourselves or kicked it way beyond any of our players.  We couldn't counter worth shit.  I kept thinking that at some point it was going to click but it never did.  They really struck me of 1990s Canadian men's soccer were some players obviously had some decent individual skill but couldn't pass, move or think football in any way so we could never really be dangerous in any way or at least in any sustained way.  

If people have seen that Les Blues video going around where they show the French men's team scoring and making some spectacular plays only to later show its actualy the women's team; i thought they could show a video of Garret Kusch, Geof Aunger, etc. kicking the ball way up the field to no one and then only later revealing its actually our current women's team.

[BearcatSA]

58 minutes ago, An Observer said:

I dont watch a lot of women's football but I was shocked at the poor skills of the Canadian team in the 3 group matches.  When i watched other sides, they could string passes together, break down the press, move into space, etc.  Our girls frequently couldn't do any of that.  i would see them pass it around the back and then for example Buchanan have all the time in the world and pass the ball right to an opponent instead of Riviere or Quinn.  Or Lawrence lose the ball on the sidelines countless times when all she had to do was pass it to a wide open Grosso.  Or one of the CBs or central mids just boot the ball over the top about 25 yards from any Canadian right to the keeper.  Again, when they had all the time in the world.  The first half of the first match I thought it was misjuding the wind and they would eventually get their trajectory but it never change in any of the matches in any of the halves. When we had possession, we were slow and methodical with it and teams just sat back and let our CBs play with it as they knew that they would either eventually pass it to them or if the CB would put into one of the midfielders, they would press them and take it away from them before they could make a simple pass or turn with the ball and beat them.  And then counter and our defense would be all over the place. It was kinda like the keystone cops back there on any counter. 

I thought we did a good job of pressing the opposing teams CBs and mids and winning the ball back quickly but when we got it, we never did anything with it and usually just lost it ourselves or kicked it way beyond any of our players.  We couldn't counter worth shit.  I kept thinking that at some point it was going to click but it never did.  They really struck me of 1990s Canadian men's soccer were some players obviously had some decent individual skill but couldn't pass, move or think football in any way so we could never really be dangerous in any way or at least in any sustained way.  

If people have seen that Les Blues video going around where they show the French men's team scoring and making some spectacular plays only to later show its actually the women's team; i thought they could show a video of Garret Kusch, Geof Aunger, etc. kicking the ball way up the field to no one and then only later revealing its actually our current women's team.

I personally feel that we still are producing what I call "athlete first/footballer second" kind of players who excel in youth programs and as a result progress upwards through our system simply because of those individual athletic skills and they never really had to go beyond that.  And in our region (except vs the US) as well as vs other lower echelon women's teams, you can still get away with "out-athlete-ing" an opponent in individual match ups.  But when the other players start matching you for athleticism but they also bring superior technique, tactical understanding, and decision-making, you hit a wall.  That is what I am seeing much more from many teams now while you and I are still seeing technical and tactical deficiencies in even our better players.

The stuff I have found and still find frustrating is the lack of screening/shielding in possession to keep the ball and/or draw fouls.  And these are with attacking players who have been in our program for 70 caps (and many more, in some cases).  Basic technique stuff that gets inculcated  at a young age so that it is part of your autonomic response system and it just becomes instinct. 

@GasPed While watching Japan at said 2012 Olympics beat us in the opening game, I saw a moment in the match where this petite Japanese player sent either the much bigger Kaylyn Kyle or Sophie Schmidt (I can't quite remember now) down to the ground with a textbook shoulder challenge even though the Canadian player was expecting contact.  I remember we got pretty schooled in that match eleven years ago by the eventual silver medalists.  And they are still a pretty consistent side at the top end of the women's game.

[MrR]

2 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

We missed out on friendlies that would have actually paid us money because the federation couldn’t afford it.

The thing that is stopping us from arranging friendlies with European teams is not a lack of invitations, it is that we cannot afford the multi-million dollar appearance fees (and also the Nations League schedules, of course).

Multi-million dollar/euro appearance fees? Really? To play friendlies against mid-tier European nations like: Poland, Hungary, Wales, Czechia, Serbia, Austria, Denmark and Sweden?

[An Observer]

2 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I personally feel that we still are producing what I call "athlete first/footballer second" kind of players who excel in youth programs and as a result progress upwards through our system simply because of those individual athletic skills and they never really had to go beyond that.  And in our region (except vs the US) as well as vs other lower echelon women's teams, you can still get away with "out-athlete-ing" an opponent in individual match ups.  But when the other players start matching you for athleticism but they also bring superior technique, tactical understanding, and decision-making, you hit a wall.  That is what I am seeing much more from many teams now while you and I are still seeing technical and tactical deficiencies in even our better players.

The stuff I have found and still find frustrating is the lack of screening/shielding in possession to keep the ball and/or draw fouls.  And these are with attacking players who have been in our program for 70 caps (and many more, in some cases).  Basic technique stuff that gets inculcated  at a young age so that it is part of your autonomic response system and it just becomes instinct. 

@GasPed While watching Japan at said 2012 Olympics beat us in the opening game, I saw a moment in the match where this petite Japanese player sent either the much bigger Kaylyn Kyle or Sophie Schmidt (I can't quite remember now) down to the ground with a textbook shoulder challenge even though the Canadian player was expecting contact.  I remember we got pretty schooled in that match eleven years ago by the eventual silver medalists.  And they are still a pretty consistent side at the top end of the women's game.

Bang on on the athletes first, footballer second point. I think it’s a similar issue with how TFC develops (or doesn’t develop) their youth. 

[GasPed]

9 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

@GasPed While watching Japan at said 2012 Olympics beat us in the opening game, I saw a moment in the match where this petite Japanese player sent either the much bigger Kaylyn Kyle or Sophie Schmidt (I can't quite remember now) down to the ground with a textbook shoulder challenge even though the Canadian player was expecting contact.  I remember we got pretty schooled in that match eleven years ago by the eventual silver medalists.  And they are still a pretty consistent side at the top end of the women's game.

I agree - Japan has and perhaps always will have the best schooled/trained athletes on the planet. Their athleticism (size, speed, strength) will likely always be their weak point too, although if a great athlete shows up the results can be spectacular. (Shohei Ohtani anyone?)  That said, even with just "good" athletes they can give any other a nation a run for their money in technical sports like soccer.  Their technique combined with their smarts, coachability and desire - it makes them consistent "dark horse" contenders in every competition (e.g. Men's World Cup - 2 wins and a draw vs Germany, Spain and Croatia).   

[Colonel Green]

11 hours ago, MrR said:

Multi-million dollar/euro appearance fees? Really? To play friendlies against mid-tier European nations like: Poland, Hungary, Wales, Czechia, Serbia, Austria, Denmark and Sweden?

In cases, yes. But again see also, Nation’s League.

[MrR]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

In cases, yes. But again see also, Nation’s League.

If "in cases, yes" implies that there are also cases, no, then why isn't the CSA focusing on the ones that are possible?

As to the Nations League, these matches are indeed a blessing for the CMNT, as without these matches the CMNT would not get the opportunity to play x number of international matches every World Cup cycle against top CONCACAF opponents. However, these matches limited to CONCACAF opponents, a level at which Canada is now competitive at. Unfortunately, the chance that Canada will face a CONCACAF opponent in the group phase of a World Cup tournament is probably less than 1%, and thus in order to progress to the next level we will more than likely need to get a result against a European opponent. Therefore, is it realistic to expect many of our young players, who have never played as much as an international friendly against a senior European national team, to do so successfully first time running at a World Cup Final? Have we got that kind of depth in our player pool?

[Colonel Green]

11 minutes ago, MrR said:

If "in cases, yes" implies that there are also cases, no, then why isn't the CSA focusing on the ones that are possible?

Nations League, as I said. As has been widely covered, UEFA's Nations League makes it very difficult to arrange friendlies with European teams, just as it did during the World Cup runup.

But in any case, you've now transitioned from talking about Herdman's supposed lack of special connections to talking about the CSA. As they've said, they have little in the way of funds to pay for friendlies at the moment, given the financial crisis.

[MrR]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Nations League, as I said. As has been widely covered, UEFA's Nations League makes it very difficult to arrange friendlies with European teams, just as it did during the World Cup runup.

There will be at least 19 international friendlies played in September and October that feature European teams, so it can't be that difficult to arrange such a match.

WEDNESDAY 6TH SEPTEMBER

Bulgaria vs Uzbekistan

THURSDAY 7TH SEPTEMBER

Bulgaria vs Iran

Norway vs Jordan

Austria vs Moldova

Wales vs South Korea

SATURDAY 9TH SEPTEMBER

Germany vs Japan

SUNDAY 10TH SEPTEMBER

Hungary vs Czech Republic

TUESDAY 12TH SEPTEMBER

Japan vs Turkey

Scotland vs England

Germany vs France

WEDNESDAY 11TH OCTOBER

Wales vs Gibraltar

Georgia vs Thailand

THURSDAY 12TH OCTOBER

Sweden vs Moldova

FRIDAY 13TH OCTOBER

England vs Australia

SATURDAY 14TH OCTOBER

USA vs Germany

TUESDAY 17TH OCTOBER

Albania vs Bulgaria

Estonia vs Thailand

France vs Scotland

WEDNESDAY 18TH OCTOBER

Mexico vs Germany

Being broke has been the CSA's default excuse for decades. When will they finally be able to resolve that financial issue? They certainly employ more than enough paid staff. Of course, I'm sure that every one of those employees is absolutely vital in doing all the great work our national association is accomplishing.

[Bison44]

What completely broken logic, 19 games over 2 windows out of a pool of 40+ countries...that proves it isnt difficult to arrange a game.  

[MrR]

4 hours ago, Bison44 said:

What completely broken logic, 19 games over 2 windows out of a pool of 40+ countries...that proves it isnt difficult to arrange a game.  

There's still a month to go. Perhaps with all of Herdman's connections he can still arrange a "friendly" in Croatia? Personally, I don't think there's a lot of interest in Europe to play friendlies with the Kings of CONCACAF.

Edited August 3, 2023 by MrR

[Unnamed Trialist]

Depending how the Caps do until the end of the season, I am not even sure Herdman will be able to call himself the best coach in Vancouver.

[SthMelbRed]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Depending how the Caps do until the end of the season, I am not even sure Herdman will be able to call himself the best coach in Vancouver.

I hope you're talking about Axel, 'cause Vanni ain't it.

[BearcatSA]

On 8/1/2023 at 9:59 PM, An Observer said:

I dont watch a lot of women's football but I was shocked at the poor skills of the Canadian team in the 3 group matches.  When i watched other sides, they could string passes together, break down the press, move into space, etc.  Our girls frequently couldn't do any of that.  i would see them pass it around the back and then for example Buchanan have all the time in the world and pass the ball right to an opponent instead of Riviere or Quinn.  Or Lawrence lose the ball on the sidelines countless times when all she had to do was pass it to a wide open Grosso.  Or one of the CBs or central mids just boot the ball over the top about 25 yards from any Canadian right to the keeper.  Again, when they had all the time in the world.  The first half of the first match I thought it was misjuding the wind and they would eventually get their trajectory but it never change in any of the matches in any of the halves. When we had possession, we were slow and methodical with it and teams just sat back and let our CBs play with it as they knew that they would either eventually pass it to them or if the CB would put into one of the midfielders, they would press them and take it away from them before they could make a simple pass or turn with the ball and beat them.  And then counter and our defense would be all over the place. It was kinda like the keystone cops back there on any counter. 

I thought we did a good job of pressing the opposing teams CBs and mids and winning the ball back quickly but when we got it, we never did anything with it and usually just lost it ourselves or kicked it way beyond any of our players.  We couldn't counter worth shit.  I kept thinking that at some point it was going to click but it never did.  They really struck me of 1990s Canadian men's soccer were some players obviously had some decent individual skill but couldn't pass, move or think football in any way so we could never really be dangerous in any way or at least in any sustained way.  

If people have seen that Les Blues video going around where they show the French men's team scoring and making some spectacular plays only to later show its actually the women's team; i thought they could show a video of Garret Kusch, Geoff Aunger, etc. kicking the ball way up the field to no one and then only later revealing its actually our current women's team.

In the podcasts I have listened to which discussed the post mortem of our tournament, the skill/technical issues which we both saw and described about some too many of our players were never addressed.  It has been more about players not being used properly, or we didn't have so-in-so available, or we didn't use in form club players enough, or we didn't have enough prep time to build familiarity again, or what have you.  I don't disagree with any of that, but when you see glaring shortcomings compared to what I have been watching with the better teams here so far, surely someone needs to be addressing that?  

Whatever personnel they are using will have a lot to prove vs Jamaica in September.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:41 AM, GasPed said:

And to be honest, I don't have much faith in Priestman's tactics or coaching, largely because I really couldn't discern any tactics/coaching in the games that I saw.  But at this point, I have to give her the benefit of the doubt and say it was because the players were just not playing with the kind of consistent quality you need for tactics to become evident.  I mean I don't think Pep Guardiola could've coached a winning effort out of this side against Australia.

 

 

Guardiola has never backed away from telling a player that losing possession vainly, or blowing a positional assignment, or not moving off the ball right, is entirely unacceptable.

The point is that we have players who are above being told it's unacceptable. The go on their merry way. Even Lawrence seemed oblivious to her own mess of a tournament. Sinclair is another, she scored in droves so they let her off the hook, she could have become a pivoting second striker but decided not to. So she doesn't score and doesn't create. 

Are the women coddled far more? Way more. They like any pro need to hear "what the f was that?" 

 

[MrR]

Did the CSA ever pay any money to Iran for what happened last year? If so, does the amount show up the 2022 financials?

Ditto for the last-minute cancellation of the Panama match?

Edited August 4, 2023 by MrR