Herdman new head coach

[canadasoccer20]

Can someone confirm if Liam Fraser has been blackmailing Herdman or something? Absolute mindblowing a guy who hasn't scored a goal since before COVID pandemic is shooting in the penalty shootout for us. Davies vs Belgium like penalty. 

[BearcatSA]

Sometimes guys aren't "feeling it," so to speak, when it comes to shoot outs.  Osorio missed in the CCL final, didn't he?  Maybe he was also physically spent after longing as much soccer as he has and that was it, who knows. 

[DeRo_Is_King]

To my surprise, we started off well and looked fully capable the first 60 minutes or so.

But as soon as Herdman brought on the consistently low-impact guys he favours, we were outmatched. 

I think we could have done much better, otherwise.

Look at who took the PKs for us (Brym, Fraser and JRR). C'mon. That's ridiculous. Credit to JRR for scoring, but I think Nelson was much more deserving of playing time tonight.

Shaff should have started imo (he was in my 11). A high-energy guy like ZBG was left on the bench again. It's just insane. Plus, Loturi got no time early on in the tournament.

Herdman's competence is still very much something to monitor. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by DeRo_Is_King

[MrR]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

So St. Clair gets credit for the goals Canada put past Cuba, and also for the game Canada wasn't even involved in not ending in a draw? I'm not saying Borjan should necessarily be the starter ahead of St. Clair (2021 form Crepeau would probably get my vote if he was available in that form), but I hate the "just win baby" attitude, especially for a single player in such a huge team sport, let alone one that only plays on one side of the ball.

St. Clair played outstanding today, but he absolutely made a bad play on conceding the penalty against Cuba. I don't remember any bad plays by Borjan in his Gold Cup games this tournament. Yes, the Morocco assist was embarassing, I will concede that.

Rate the 2 games Borjan played in this Gold Cup versus the 2 St. Clair played.

Also, Borjan has blundered at past Gold Cups. Remember that 2-goal lead we had against Haiti in 2019? That was so embarrassing the mods won't allow the YouTube clip of that match to be shown on this board.

All I'm saying is that there is no place for sentiment on a winning team, either on the coach's part, or the CSA's.

Somehow committing a bad play doesn't hurt as much, as long as you still win the game, right? 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

I think we have to be reasonably happy with the performance. We played incisively in the first half, especially Millar, Miller, and even Cav coming over to help. Hoillet. It was not brilliant but it was football. Vitoria was good, McGraw mostly invisible, Bombito had his moments. Osorio was not great early but I appreciated him later on. St Clair has trouble holding onto the ball, but played properly and could not be blamed for the result or any part of it.

The US looked mediocre, and probably was really mediocre, so our generally mediocre teams matched well. I mean Neal was terrible, they had players who did not play that well and made simple mistakes, there was really no one on that team that was top quality except, as he proved, Turner. And all that helped us. 

Brym should not be in a Canada uniform, not once has he shown he deserves it. 

Shaff was brilliant and loved that attitude. Wotherspoon and Fraser on as subs were subpar.

In the end, what really gets me is not being able to hold on for 10 minutes with that 2-1 lead. We did not go into desperate close down mode, it is what I find the worst about today. We were winning and just had to close them down entirely. That was the worst part of the game, IMO, because the win was there for the taking. 

And yes, that ref did not favour us, the only thing that saved us was that the VAR team were not Mexican and were not zealously working to keep the US alive to save the business model.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[MrR]

17 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

To my surprise, we started off well and looked fully capable the first 60 minutes or so.

But as soon as Herdman brought on the consistently low-impact guys he favours, we were outmatched. 

I think we could have done much better, otherwise.

Look at who took the PKs for us (Brym, Fraser and JRR). C'mon. That's ridiculous. Credit to JRR for scoring, but I think Nelson was much more deserving of playing time tonight.

Shaff should have started imo (he was in my 11). A high-energy guy like ZBG was left on the bench again. It's just insane. Plus, Loturi got no time early on in the tournament.

Herdman's competence is still very much something to monitor. 

Selecting penalty takers has never been Herdman's strong suit, which has cost us dearly in 2 out of our last 3 tournaments. Even Holger Osieck, back in 2000, recognized the importance of assigning a player to take penalties, as Carlo Corazzin explains so clearly at the 7:15 mark of the following clip:

How can Herdman not designate David as the player who takes the spot kicks for the CMNT, in light of the fact that he scored 10 penalties for Lille over the course of the past season?

 

[Kent]

6 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Sometimes guys aren't "feeling it," so to speak, when it comes to shoot outs.  Osorio missed in the CCL final, didn't he?  Maybe he was also physically spent after longing as much soccer as he has and that was it, who knows. 

I believe he also missed one in the MLS Cup final. Both of those high profile misses I believe didn't even require a goalkeeper save. When it came time for the shootout all I knew is that I wanted Vitoria to take one, and I didn't want Osorio to take one. I had no idea who the other 4 should be.

[narduch]

Apparently Osorio is 0 for 4 in penalties 

[MrR]

It's too bad Herdman didn't want to play Jamaica.

Edited July 10, 2023 by MrR

[TOcanadafan]

9 hours ago, canadasoccer20 said:

Can someone confirm if Liam Fraser has been blackmailing Herdman or something? Absolute mindblowing a guy who hasn't scored a goal since before COVID pandemic is shooting in the penalty shootout for us. Davies vs Belgium like penalty. 

My guess is he was blasting them in the top corner in training and then stepped up in the moment and choked.  It happens.  It’s not like they didn’t practice penalties… but there’s no way you know how a player will handle themselves until they do it for real.  We didn’t have an experienced penalty taking personnel on the pitch at the end.  Look at Miller… guy came through.  You just don’t know.

[TOcanadafan]

8 hours ago, MrR said:

Selecting penalty takers has never been Herdman's strong suit, which has cost us dearly in 2 out of our last 3 tournaments. Even Holger Osieck, back in 2000, recognized the importance of assigning a player to take penalties, as Carlo Corazzin explains so clearly at the 7:15 mark of the following clip:

How can Herdman not designate David as the player who takes the spot kicks for the CMNT, in light of the fact that he scored 10 penalties for Lille over the course of the past season?

 

I’m sure this issue is settled now… when David is on the field, he’ll be taking the penalty.

[Mitchryan11]

10 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

Look, before the match, about 95% of the posts on the board had us getting annihilated. We took the game to penalties. If you're going to shit on him when we do badly, at least have the common decency to give credit when we do well. We had mostly our B team players and they took the American B team to the brink. There's no shame today.

 

[TOcanadafan]

I’m one who’ll give props to Herdman for tactics and getting a certain mentality through to the players for this game.  We were organized, physical and battled hard and didn’t let the US get flowing.  The collapse at the end is on the players on the field.  How everyone switched off when Turner delivered that upfield ball that lead to the goal is beyond me.

[SpursFlu]

If you watch the shootout you can see Osorio arguing with someone about who shoots next. It was when Vitoria was standing there waiting to kick. I'm not sure if there was confusion about who shoots next. Can you change the order? I'm not sure

I can't really hate on Herdman for yesterday's game. I would have liked to see Nelson I didn't love the substitutions at the time but I thought all things considered it was a pretty good performance. Except the shootout 

Edited July 10, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Kent]

18 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

If you watch the shootout you can see Osorio arguing with someone about who shoots next. It was when Vitoria was standing there waiting to kick. I'm not sure if there was confusion about who shoots next. Can you change the order? I'm not sure

I can't really hate on Herdman for yesterday's game. I would have liked to see Nelson I didn't love the substitutions at the time but I thought all things considered it was a pretty good performance. Except the shootout 

If it was before Vitoria shot, I believe that was about moving back to the half line. Both teams were lined up well inside the half that the penalties were being taken. They need to be on the other side of half. There was an official asking them to back up and Osorio was saying "If they move, we'll move" because the Americans were lined up the same way. Eventually both teams backed up to half.

[Gian-Luca]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

I believe he also missed one in the MLS Cup final. Both of those high profile misses I believe didn't even require a goalkeeper save. When it came time for the shootout all I knew is that I wanted Vitoria to take one, and I didn't want Osorio to take one. I had no idea who the other 4 should be.

He didn't miss one in the MLS final in 2016 - he didn't take one. Bradley & Morrow missed the PK's in that match.

He has however missed 2-3 PKs in V-Cup play, hitting the woodwork on every occasion just like he did in the CCL final.

[SpursFlu]

3 minutes ago, Kent said:

If it was before Vitoria shot, I believe that was about moving back to the half line. Both teams were lined up well inside the half that the penalties were being taken. They need to be on the other side of half. There was an official asking them to back up and Osorio was saying "If they move, we'll move" because the Americans were lined up the same way. Eventually both teams backed up to half.

Yah that was happening also.. I could be wrong but I thought I saw Osorio going back and forth with someone from Canada

[Free kick]

11 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

  Osorio missed in the CCL final, didn't he? 

Yes,  and i think he may have also missed his penalty in the MLS cup final against Seattle in 2016.  I think it was a good decision not to have him take PK’s in shootouts.   

success in PK’s is very much a psychological thing so your past is going to be in the back of your mind when you step up to take it.  You need to be very confident at that stage.

 

edit.:  i didnt see GL’s post above prior to typing.  I stand corrected on the 2016 bit
 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Free kick

[MrR]

With lame statements like the following (given around the 4:15 mark below), "We took our foot of the gas," "We were pretty clear which team we wanted to play," and "The football Gods have given us our derby match," shouldn't the CSA consider inserting a clause in future coaches' contracts that requires a coach to achieve certain minimum results, such as at least advancing at the very least to the semi-finals of a Gold Cup tournament? If such a contract had been in place for the 2023 Gold Cup, Herdman would no doubt have been whistling a different tune, and we would have more than likely still been in this tournament

 

[costarg]

11 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

My guess is he was blasting them in the top corner in training and then stepped up in the moment and choked.  It happens.  It’s not like they didn’t practice penalties… but there’s no way you know how a player will handle themselves until they do it for real.  We didn’t have an experienced penalty taking personnel on the pitch at the end.  Look at Miller… guy came through.  You just don’t know.

Sure, but do you know who you do pick regardless of what happens in training?  The guy that grabbed the bull by the horns, worked his ass off and just scored a highlight reel goal with 10 minutes left in the game. Regardless of how training went, you pick that guy in that moment.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by costarg

[costarg]

I'm thrilled with the performance last night, the guys finally showed up.  However Herdman has to stop with his top 5 leagues bullshit when his answer to every question and situation is Brym and Fraser.  This is beyond ridiculous.  Having favorites is a thing, I fully acknowledge and understand that.  Fraser is a hard worker and I actually like the guy, but he is not the answer.  Brym shouldn't even be in the picture, there is no justification or explanation for it, we have better options.

[MrR]

According to Wikipedia, the revised UEFA top 5 leagues are as follows (which means that Brym plays in a top 5 league):

1) England

2) Spain

3) Italy

4) Germany

5) Netherlands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

[gator]

Overall I give Herdman a good grade for this tournament, he capped some youngsters and they were given lots of responsibility, he recognized after the 1st match in Houston  playing a 352 was asking too much of your wingbacks in the heat no matter who you are playing! Starting 11's were ok for me, substitutions were puzzling at times however I don't think he really got things horribly wrong, it is easy to 2nd guess but in the pk shootout I never would have had Vittoria shooting first and to follow up with a defensive midfielder who rarely scores and a LB is really rolling the dice regardless of what they do in practice!

[narduch]

9 minutes ago, MrR said:

According to Wikipedia, the revised UEFA top 5 leagues are as follows (which means that Brym plays in a top 5 league):

1) England

2) Spain

3) Italy

4) Germany

5) Netherlands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

People who say this don't really understand how the coefficient works. 

France was still 5th after last season ended.

The 'live' standings don't really mean much until the full season is played.

Besides that Brym has never actually ever played a game in the Dutch top flight. Using that same logic Pepple is an EPL player

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by narduch

[MrR]

35 minutes ago, gator said:

 but in the pk shootout I never would have had Vittoria shooting first and to follow up with a defensive midfielder who rarely scores and a LB is really rolling the dice regardless of what they do in practice!

Isn't Davies a LB?