Herdman new head coach

[DeRo_Is_King]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

I’ve never felt he would be out of job based on the Gold Cup. I do think this summer shouldn’t be viewed successfully based on wins. Canada needs to find new talent, kids who can be integrated into the program. I’m hopeful the NT can add 4/5 guys from this group of new players. 
 

I understand it's a time to try out new players. We've seen some. But we've also seen Miller, Osorio, Laryea, Vitoria, Hoilett and Cavallini all play consistently. Even Fraser has gotten significant minutes, and until yesterday, Brym was Herdman's go-to striker from the bench.

None of these guys are new. And yet, the results have still been poor, the performances uninspiring and actual new guys like Nelson / Loturi playing very limited roles. 

I'm glad we've gotten to see McGraw at the back, Ahmed in midfield and Millar playing a more prominent role. But then there's been Bombito out of position, Choiniere snubbed, ZBG with 10 minutes total, stoppage-time Zator and Shaffelburg only from the bench. 

[king1010]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Have you actually bothered to read the articles? The only person who brought the topic up and for whatever reason decided to put it in the public domain was Jason Devos of the CSA. There are attributed quotes that explicitly state that he has been researching what the implications of bankruptcy would be.

Devos walked that back the night it dropped and said they are absolutely not considering bankruptcy

[king1010]

5 hours ago, MrR said:

Your question: "Which coach could we hire at Herdman's salary, who would be willing and an upgrade of Herdman?" 

My answer: Bev Priestman. She's already on the CSA payroll, so we don't have to waste time and money looking for a new coach. And surely with that $5M interest free loan from FIFA, we could easily upgrade Prieestman's pay grade to equal what Herdman is receiving

On your second point, you are once again wrong. Herdman is not the most successful coach we've arguably ever had. He was only able to win an Olympic bronze with basically the same players Priestman was able to win gold with! Hence, since gold is way more emblematic of success than bronze, wouldn't you agree that Priestman is the most successful coach we've arguably ever had? Hence if the CSA can justify promoting a male coach from the women's national team to the men's national team, it surely should not have a problem promoting a female coach from the women's national team to the men's national team, wouldn't you say? Although, Herdman did go on the record, stating that he had to contend with an awful lot of misogyny at the time of his promotion.

The beauty of it all is that by promoting Priestman to coach the men's national team, we don't even have to fire Herdman, as he can coach the women's national team till his contract expires, which would save the CSA even more money. Now do we really still need that $5M interest free loan from FIFA?

Hold on. Your solution is to hire Bev Priestman? And Herdman goes to coach the women. Thus somehow we don’t need a loan and have magical money to host a fall schedule?

His contract is to coach the canmnt, it cant just be switched on the fly to coach the canwnt.

Is this a bit? Are you a troll? I have so many questions. 

I dont even know why I took the bait. Ugh

Edited July 5, 2023 by king1010

[narduch]

MrR is a troll. 

Don't engage 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

22 minutes ago, king1010 said:

Devos walked that back the night it dropped and said they are absolutely not considering bankruptcy

The attributed quotes in the second article did not contradict those in the first one. Out of curiosity why do you think there is suddenly talk of a $5 million interest free loan from FIFA?

[MrR]

16 minutes ago, king1010 said:

Hold on. Your solution is to hire Bev Priestman? And Herdman goes to coach the women. Thus somehow we don’t need a loan and have magical money to host a fall schedule?

His contract is to coach the canmnt, it cant just be switched on the fly to coach the canwnt.

Is this a bit? Are you a troll? I have so many questions. 

I dont even know why I took the bait. Ugh

Denial - it is so easy for someone like yourself to avoid discussing the real point of a post by simply employing the tactic of deflection. My post simply pointed out that Herdman is not arguably the most successful  coach we have ever had, and that is an undisputed fact.

Holger Osieck - 1 Gold Cup

Bev Priestman - 1 Olympic gold medal

John Herdman - 2 Olympic bronze medals & a 31st place World Cup finish

Tony Waiters - a 24th place World Cup finish.

And the best counter argument you can come up with is: Is this a bit? Are you a troll? I have so many questions. 

I don't even know why I took the bait. Ugh

 

[MrR]

18 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The attributed quotes in the second article did not contradict those in the first one. Out of curiosity why do you think there is suddenly talk of a $5 million interest free loan from FIFA?

BINGO

[Bigandy]

6 hours ago, MrR said:

Your question: "Which coach could we hire at Herdman's salary, who would be willing and an upgrade of Herdman?" 

My answer: Bev Priestman. She's already on the CSA payroll, so we don't have to waste time and money looking for a new coach. And surely with that $5M interest free loan from FIFA, we could easily upgrade Prieestman's pay grade to equal what Herdman is receiving

On your second point, you are once again wrong. Herdman is not the most successful coach we've arguably ever had. He was only able to win an Olympic bronze with basically the same players Priestman was able to win gold with! Hence, since gold is way more emblematic of success than bronze, wouldn't you agree that Priestman is the most successful coach we've arguably ever had? Hence if the CSA can justify promoting a male coach from the women's national team to the men's national team, it surely should not have a problem promoting a female coach from the women's national team to the men's national team, wouldn't you say? Although, Herdman did go on the record, stating that he had to contend with an awful lot of misogyny at the time of his promotion.

The beauty of it all is that by promoting Priestman to coach the men's national team, we don't even have to fire Herdman, as he can coach the women's national team till his contract expires, which would save the CSA even more money. Now do we really still need that $5M interest free loan from FIFA?

This is by far the worst comment ive read on this forum. 

1. Youre comparing 2 different teams. Priestman is not a candidate to be the best coach of the mens team we have ever had as she has 0 expereince. Maybe she'd be our best, but she has zero experience. 
2. all stakeholders would have to agree to this and I highly doubt theres a single stakeholder who wants this? Herdman surely doesnt. Theres a 0% chance he would accept this. The players dont. CSA would have all sorts of costs/legal contract issues/ bad look that the women get poached and given the mens sloppy seconds. 
3. To think the loan is for coaching salaries shows your lack of understanding of the CSA.
4. What a mysoginistic take. you are advocating that the men are more important so its fine to take the best coach the women have had because the men need an upgrade. Since we are poor, we wont even do a search for a new womens coach. Lets just give them the coach you think should be fired. 

Did Ottawafan create a second account or something? Time to head back to your bridge. 

[king1010]

33 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The attributed quotes in the second article did not contradict those in the first one. Out of curiosity why do you think there is suddenly talk of a $5 million interest free loan from FIFA?

It's been well reported on... 

FIFA will give Canada Soccer a lifeline by granting a $5 million interest-free loan. Canadian Soccer has been enduring a difficult financial situation as it incurred a deficit of 6.3 million CAD in 2022. A deficit will come at the end of 2023.

The Athletic has reported that Canada Soccer had applied for a $5 million interest-free loan earlier from FIFA. Interim General Secretary Jason de Vos confirmed that the organization has applied for the loan but it hasn’t been approved yet.

 

https://theathletic.com/4656900/2023/07/01/canada-soccer-fifa-loan/ 

https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/fifa-to-give-canada-soccer-a-lifeline-with-5-million-loan-20230701-WST-440797.html

With regards to your "attributed quotes" statement, I'm not following. Devos in one interview stated for his own personal knowledge he wanted to know more about the bankruptcy process, then in a subsequent interview that evening (below) he said Canada soccer is absolutely not looking at Bankruptcy.

Canada Soccer’s general secretary denies bankruptcy considerations, acknowledges financial issues

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-canada-soccers-general-secretary-denies-bankruptcy-considerations/ 

Edited July 5, 2023 by king1010

[MrR]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

This is by far the worst comment ive read on this forum. 

1. Youre comparing 2 different teams. Priestman is not a candidate to be the best coach of the mens team we have ever had as she has 0 expereince. Maybe she'd be our best, but she has zero experience. 
2. all stakeholders would have to agree to this and I highly doubt theres a single stakeholder who wants this? Herdman surely doesnt. Theres a 0% chance he would accept this. The players dont. CSA would have all sorts of costs/legal contract issues/ bad look that the women get poached and given the mens sloppy seconds. 
3. To think the loan is for coaching salaries shows your lack of understanding of the CSA.
4. What a mysoginistic take. you are advocating that the men are more important so its fine to take the best coach the women have had because the men need an upgrade. Since we are poor, we wont even do a search for a new womens coach. Lets just give them the coach you think should be fired. 

Did Ottawafan create a second account or something? Time to head back to your bridge. 

Please! Stop it.

[Bigandy]

31 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The attributed quotes in the second article did not contradict those in the first one. Out of curiosity why do you think there is suddenly talk of a $5 million interest free loan from FIFA?

The first article clearly did not sum up what De Vos was intending to say. He therefore clarified. We can squabble over how much contradiction there is, but De Vos set the record straight. "Unequivocally denying bankruptcy."

As for the 5 million loan - Clearly 5 million is not do or die for bankruptcy. Look at the assets. Look at future earnings. etc. Yes we had a 6.5 million deficit but thats not enough to go bankrupt on its own. Plenty of business's go through a rough year but can stay in business.  

[king1010]

18 minutes ago, MrR said:

Denial - it is so easy for someone like yourself to avoid discussing the real point of a post by simply employing the tactic of deflection. My post simply pointed out that Herdman is not arguably the most successful  coach we have ever had, and that is an undisputed fact.

Holger Osieck - 1 Gold Cup

Bev Priestman - 1 Olympic gold medal

John Herdman - 2 Olympic bronze medals & a 31st place World Cup finish

Tony Waiters - a 24th place World Cup finish.

And the best counter argument you can come up with is: Is this a bit? Are you a troll? I have so many questions. 

I don't even know why I took the bait. Ugh

 

Agreed. 

 

[king1010]

4 minutes ago, MrR said:

Please! Stop it.

"Denial - it is so easy for someone like yourself to avoid discussing the real point of a post by simply employing the tactic of deflection." - MrR

Edited July 5, 2023 by king1010

[MrR]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

The first article clearly did not sum up what De Vos was intending to say. He therefore clarified. We can squabble over how much contradiction there is, but De Vos set the record straight. "Unequivocally denying bankruptcy."

As for the 5 million loan - Clearly 5 million is not do or die for bankruptcy. Look at the assets. Look at future earnings. etc. Yes we had a 6.5 million deficit but thats not enough to go bankrupt on its own. Plenty of business's go through a rough year but can stay in business.  

You should always make sure your gun is loaded before you pull the trigger.

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, king1010 said:

Agreed. 

 

Dont get me wrong. I am not saying Herdmans our best coach ever 100%. But surely there are arguments. 

His arguments.
1. WC qualification - this automatically puts him in the top region.
2. the most successful recruitment of duals in our history
3. Topping WCQ. - first time ever
4. First goal scored at WC 
5. Second last at WC - Canada finished last in 1986.
6. Concacaf is way stronger than in 1986 and the qualifciation process is much more difficult. 

Arguments for other coaches. 
1. waiters - WC qualification - he didnt do it aa dominant as herdman did. 
- He didnt score at the WC 
-He came dead last but it was a smaller tournament so technically 24th...?
-Only 2 spots available for WCQ with one given to mexico. 

2. Osieck - didnt qualify for a wc
-won a GC
 

3. Bev - Shes never coached the mens team. Her qualifications are apples to oranges. She may be fantastic but its impossible to accurately compare her when judging the best coach of the mens team. Perhaps I should clarify that I was only talking about the mens team when I say herdman is arguably our best coach of all time. 

I cant understand that anyone can say hes not in the conversation for best coach of all time. 

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, MrR said:

Please! Stop it.

He won't.  

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

He won't.  

Youre becoming obsessed with me.

Go back to your bridge troll. 

 

[MrR]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

The first article clearly did not sum up what De Vos was intending to say. He therefore clarified. We can squabble over how much contradiction there is, but De Vos set the record straight. "Unequivocally denying bankruptcy."

As for the 5 million loan - Clearly 5 million is not do or die for bankruptcy. Look at the assets. Look at future earnings. etc. Yes we had a 6.5 million deficit but thats not enough to go bankrupt on its own. Plenty of business's go through a rough year but can stay in business.  

According to GAAP, revenue cannot be recognized until it is earned, whereas the 6.5 deficit has already been incurred. Thus, in this case, according to the matching principle, only the deficit can be recognized when applying for such a loan in the real world. However, corrupt organizations like FIFA, and its Saudi and Qatari cronies, operate with a pencil that isn't as SHARP.

[MrR]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

He won't.  

I believe you're right.

[MrR]

3 hours ago, king1010 said:

Devos walked that back the night it dropped and said they are absolutely not considering bankruptcy

For a New York minute I had hope that deVos might have the balls to change the way the CSA has been operating for as far back as I can remember. Yes, he had the effing audacity to use the dreaded B-word. However, that was way too much honestly for the vultures and Jason was forced to immediately backtrack, and with that my hope for a better CSA was extinguished in the process. 

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, MrR said:

According to GAAP, revenue cannot be recognized until it is earned, whereas the 6.5 deficit has already been incurred. Thus, in this case, according to the matching principle, only the deficit can be recognized when applying for such a loan in the real world. However, corrupt organizations like FIFA, and its Saudi and Qatari cronies, operate with a pencil that isn't as SHARP.

Of course you cannot put down unearned revenue from an accounting stand point. However, the CSA can and should consider revenue forecasts. 

Think about what youre saying. Every mortgage ever is based on future earnings based on the promise of your current financial situation. You currently make 100k a year so we will give you a loan for X based on you continuing to make 100k a year. If you cant look at future forecasts when applying for loans, then no one would ever get a loan. The only people who could afford a loan would be those that have the money in the first place.  

However, whether CSA gets approved for a loan or not (by a bank or fifa or any other institution) is not the point. The point is that the CSA has the financial capacity to pay back the loan. 

I cant believe that ottawafan made a second account to spew more nonsense.  

[VinceA]

I'm starting to feel Herdman won't be our coach in 2026. But I also feel like the CSA won't fire him.

He seems fed up with the federation, and he knows he's losing the goodwill of the fanbase. I can see a 3 and out at the Copa America and him resigning.

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, MrR said:

For a New York minute I had hope that deVos might have the balls to change the way the CSA has been operating for as far back as I can remember. Yes, he had the effing audacity to use the dreaded B-word. However, that was way too much honestly for the vultures and Jason was forced to immediately backtrack, and with that my hope for a better CSA was extinguished in the process. 

Appears to be the case.

[Bigandy]

54 minutes ago, VinceA said:

I'm starting to feel Herdman won't be our coach in 2026. But I also feel like the CSA won't fire him.

He seems fed up with the federation, and he knows he's losing the goodwill of the fanbase. I can see a 3 and out at the Copa America and him resigning.

I agree there seems to be a bit of a post WC hangover. But why would Herdman do that. His stock is not very high at the moment. Coaching at 2 world cups is great for the CV. Add in the fact we may get out of the group stage and he could move up. He has a squad of young bright stars with super high potential. A federation that is in shambles but has many reasons for optimism - As one of the stable stakeholders, he currently has alot of power to shape things going forward. 

Alternatively, he quits late 2024, most nations going to the WC will likely not have vacancies. His stock is not that high he could move significantly up, he has to uproot his family. What type of team would sign him? New zealand - thats a step down and likely has low budget, low potential players etc.  None of the euro teams that qualified for the WC are likely. IDK much about his possibilities of african nations, no chance he gets a top south american deal, Maybe he gets a south korea or iran but thats highly unlikely. 

I get the feeling that neither us nor herdman would benefit from parting ways. 

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, VinceA said:

I'm starting to feel Herdman won't be our coach in 2026. But I also feel like the CSA won't fire him.

He seems fed up with the federation, and he knows he's losing the goodwill of the fanbase. I can see a 3 and out at the Copa America and him resigning.

Had the team had a strong run in Qatar, that might have been the best time for him personally to make a move within the men's game, when his cachet was probably highest.  However, his CV has had a few setbacks which warrant scrutiny but there is still a spin/narrative that can be put in place to Herdman-splain them away, and that would be ditto for a less than satisfying results at the Copa.

You never know...maybe he bails.  But he needs to bail to get to a comparable or better gig, men's or women's game.