Herdman new head coach

[MrR]

6 minutes ago, king1010 said:

I quoted what Ottawafan hypothetically said the players should be saying. 
 

But they shouldn’t have any sympathy for the organization.  No money?  Go find a way to raise more dollars. 

I agree with the bold lettered sentence.

Edited July 4, 2023 by MrR

[Ottawafan]

17 minutes ago, king1010 said:

I quoted what Ottawafan hypothetically said the players should be saying. 
 

But they shouldn’t have any sympathy for the organization.  No money?  Go find a way to raise more dollars. 

Thought it was pretty clear. CSA lacks money. Why?  And what are they doing to create more finances to ensure proper funding for its ventures?

[MrR]

First the CSB deal and now OneSoccer just mentioned a $5M interest free loan from FIFA. Is that the best the CSA can do?

The CSA is in the red. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul ain't gonna solve anything. Just get it over and done with. File for bankruptcy, reset, and then borrow the $5M!

Edited July 4, 2023 by MrR

[Bison44]

I wish we could get some basic facts straight.  Is the CSA in debt at all?  Or is it they just dont have enough money to cover the 2 senior programs over the upcoming fall windows....maybe 4-5mil expenditure..I'm just guessing at that figure.  Why file for bankruptcy if you arent even in debt yet??  If you need more money for business as usual, you get an operating loan from some nice person (fifa).  And you work on ways to make more money.   

 

[MrR]

If you need money, you go to a bank. They are in the business of lending money. If they won't lend it to you, why would anyone else?

[MrR]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

I wish we could get some basic facts straight.  Is the CSA in debt at all?  Or is it they just dont have enough money to cover the 2 senior programs over the upcoming fall windows....maybe 4-5mil expenditure..I'm just guessing at that figure.  Why file for bankruptcy if you arent even in debt yet??  If you need more money for business as usual, you get an operating loan from some nice person (fifa).  And you work on ways to make more money.   

 

With a nice person (FIFA) like that, you get match fixing like:

Mexico vs Qatar 0-1

[Stoppage Time]

3 hours ago, king1010 said:

I don’t understand number 2. The players are telling the CSA to go make more money than the biggest FAs in the world so their payment demands can be met? It’s not feasible, possible or reasonable. If that’s their position they can turn the Board and President over a dozen times and their original financial demands will still not be met. 

Does anybody know how much the Argentinian WC Champs were paid per WCQ and WQ game in 2022? The would, presumably, be the pinnacle of success and pay for champions. Canadian players are nowhere near that level of achievement. I wonder how Canadian player demands compare to the pay for Argentinians. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, MrR said:

First the CSB deal and now OneSoccer just mentioned a $5M interest free loan from FIFA. Is that the best the CSA can do? ...

Probably an advance on money they would be receiving from the World Cup co-host. I doubt they'll want to press the reset button until that's out the way and the first 10 year term of the CSB deal is about to conclude, but they are on the hook to follow advice given to them related to the audit by the federal government if they want to keep their federal funding so there could still be interesting times ahead on this.

[king1010]

5 hours ago, MrR said:

If you need money, you go to a bank. They are in the business of lending money. If they won't lend it to you, why would anyone else?

Municipalities, Federal Government, loan sharks, economic development agencies will loan money when banks refuse. 

[MrR]

1 hour ago, king1010 said:

Municipalities, Federal Government, loan sharks, economic development agencies will loan money when banks refuse. 

It's the FIFA INTEREST-FREE loan to the CSA, an organization which year after year has proven to be utterly incapable of generating sufficient revenue to operate successfully (aside from the "perks" taken by the top brass) that really sums up this ugly financial mess we're in. With a financial track-record like that of the CSA, how can any institution reasonably conclude that giving money to the CSA is nothing more than an act of charity?

Thank God for the integrity of all of our national team players!

Edited July 4, 2023 by MrR

[Bigandy]

55 minutes ago, MrR said:

It's the FIFA INTEREST-FREE loan to the CSA, an organization which year after year has proven to be utterly incapable of generating sufficient revenue to operate successfully (aside from the "perks" taken by the top brass) that really sums up this ugly financial mess we're in. With a financial track-record like that of the CSA, how can any institution reasonably conclude that giving money to the CSA is nothing more than an act of charity?

Thank God for the integrity of all of our national team players!

This is a really poor take. Yes the CSA has financial issues and we have never been flush with cash. However, if you look at any financial statement, the CSA has tons of assets and usually are cash flow positive. It took a pandemic, crazy WCQ travel and costs, player strikes, and paying out major bonuses to make the CSA have a negative cash flow year. 

I am not saying that the CSA is thriving financially by any means, but a 5 million loan over multiple years is 100% within the CSA's ability to repay. 

I know youre new to the board but dont drink the kool-aid. Go look at the financial statements before you crucify the CSA for the wrong reasons. Go ahead and crucify them for the right reasons though! 

[Ottawafan]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

This is a really poor take. Yes the CSA has financial issues and we have never been flush with cash. However, if you look at any financial statement, the CSA has tons of assets and usually are cash flow positive. It took a pandemic, crazy WCQ travel and costs, player strikes, and paying out major bonuses to make the CSA have a negative cash flow year. 

I am not saying that the CSA is thriving financially by any means, but a 5 million loan over multiple years is 100% within the CSA's ability to repay. 

I know youre new to the board but dont drink the kool-aid. Go look at the financial statements before you crucify the CSA for the wrong reasons. Go ahead and crucify them for the right reasons though! 

I gotta hand it to you.  Your ability to constantly spin a pro CSA narrative is impressive.

[Bigandy]

28 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I gotta hand it to you.  Your ability to constantly spin a pro CSA narrative is impressive.

Go back to your bridge you troll.  Its not a "positive spin" to say an organization has the financial capabilities to take on a 5million dollar loan with no interest. If your not able to read the financial statements and come to that conclusion then you shouldnt be commenting on financial matters. 

Do you really believe that the CSA does not have the capacity to pay back a 5million dollar loan?  

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, king1010 said:

Municipalities, Federal Government, loan sharks, economic development agencies will loan money when banks refuse. 

Friends, family, private investors; then sponsors could advance payments; then assets could be sold outright or the rights to exploit them (CSB).

In any case, for the CSA to be spending over their heads and not managing the challenges is very disappointing.

My personal opinion is that Herdman should have received an ultimatum to field a team vs. Panama at BC Place, under threat of firing. That lost us a few million, and set a terrible precedent, where the CSA bends over. So yes, as I see it, Bontis should have played even harder ball. It was the only way to clear the heads of the players and get the stakeholders thinking straight.

[MrR]

19 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

This is a really poor take. Yes the CSA has financial issues and we have never been flush with cash. However, if you look at any financial statement, the CSA has tons of assets and usually are cash flow positive. It took a pandemic, crazy WCQ travel and costs, player strikes, and paying out major bonuses to make the CSA have a negative cash flow year. 

I am not saying that the CSA is thriving financially by any means, but a 5 million loan over multiple years is 100% within the CSA's ability to repay. 

I know youre new to the board but dont drink the kool-aid. Go look at the financial statements before you crucify the CSA for the wrong reasons. Go ahead and crucify them for the right reasons though! 

If the CSA really has tons of assets, then perhaps it should consider using them to raise the funds it needs to operate a national soccer program. Do these tons of assets include a national training facility for our national team players? Or is it primarily limited to the house of a former Canadian Prime Minister at 237 Metcalfe Street, where the CSA brass in expensive suits operates from?

1) The pandemic effected every sport in Canada, and yet despite the challenges all have had to deal with as a result of the pandemic, I don't hear any other sports governing bodies in Canada using the word bankruptcy in media interviews.

2) The player strike - Why was it that they went on strike? Are the players unjustly and intentionally trying to destroy the CSA?

3) The paying out of major bonuses is usually based on exceptional performances that have generated the money such bonuses are paid from. Are you saying that the players didn't earn these bonuses?

My take is that the CSA is crucifying itself.

[Bigandy]

8 minutes ago, MrR said:

If the CSA really has tons of assets, then perhaps it should consider using them to raise the funds it needs to operate a national soccer program. Do these tons of assets include a national training facility for our national team players? Or is it primarily limited to the house of a former Canadian Prime Minister at 237 Metcalfe Street, where the CSA brass in expensive suits operates from?

1) The pandemic effected every sport in Canada, and yet despite the challenges all have had to deal with as a result of the pandemic, I don't hear any other sports governing bodies in Canada using the word bankruptcy in media interviews.

2) The player strike - Why was it that they went on strike? Are the players unjustly and intentionally trying to destroy the CSA?

3) The paying out of major bonuses is usually based on exceptional performances that have generated the money such bonuses are paid from. Are you saying that the players didn't earn these bonuses?

My take is that the CSA is crucifying itself.

This is incredibly poor business sense. Every organization in the world uses lines of credits and/or loans. Selling off assets as a way to pay for your bills can be done but why would you actively advocate for that option. Thats like saying you should sell your car or house instead of getting an advance from your boss to pay your phone bill.  

The csa has 2 mill in captial assets and 7 mill in GIC's to give a couple examples. 

1. If you do some research, you will see that CSA is unequivocally denying they are looking into bankruptcy. Your information is incorrect.
2. They went on strike for 2 main reasons. 1.  because of what westhead reported. They did so without legal counsel and on the basis that CSB was making millions and millions in sponsorship. I bet if the players knew the actual numbers, they wouldnt have gone on strike 2. They wanted prize money. At this point they were asking for about 12million of the 10 million prize money. 4mill for men, 4 mill for women AFTER TAXES. Which would mean the CSA has to pay 12 mill (or so?) 
3. What are you talking about? my original post has to do with the 5 million dollar FIFA loan. The bonus's were not part of the original post. However, because you bring it up I will indulge. The paying out of the bonus is to the federation from FIFA. You can argue the federation as a whole qualified for the WC. Without CSA, theres no admin or logistics, orginaztion of travel, hiring of herdman etc. Its a team effort. So CSA pays millions of dollars on the road to WCQ, they pay alot for the friends and family package. Surely they deserve some reimbursement? The players deserve some bonus money for their efforts. However, do they deserve to have one of the largest bonus payments out of any nation at the WC? Absolutely not. I'd say the 40% offer of the CBA is more than fair and more in line with other federations. 

However, all 3 of your points are a misdirection from the original post. You're just trying to argue every single thing because youre blinded by hatred for the CSA. 

Back to the original point. Have you read any financial statements from CSA that indicate that CSA would not be able to pay back a 5 million interest free loan from FIFA? 

[DeRo_Is_King]

His job was saved tonight imo. But really, the win came against a highly weakened, 166th-ranked(!) Cuban side.

[ECW]

2 hours ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

His job was saved tonight imo. But really, the win came against a highly weakened, 166th-ranked(!) Cuban side.

On what planet was his job saved? Maybe on twitter which doesn’t encourage much actual knowledge… but in reality there is little chance that the CSA will fire him. Nor should they. He’ll almost certainly be our coach at the World Cup in 2026. 

[Stoppage Time]

13 minutes ago, ECW said:

On what planet was his job saved? Maybe on twitter which doesn’t encourage much actual knowledge… but in reality there is little chance that the CSA will fire him. Nor should they. He’ll almost certainly be our coach at the World Cup in 2026. 

Well, we are now seen as a capable team by some and that had helped attract a few dual nats, but be sure to understand that any future success with dual nats depends on results on the field. A sting of poor play will greatly reduce chance of convincing some duals to choose Canada.

[Watchmen]

14 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In any case, for the CSA to be spending over their heads and not managing the challenges is very disappointing.

My personal opinion is that Herdman should have received an ultimatum to field a team vs. Panama at BC Place, under threat of firing. That lost us a few million, and set a terrible precedent, where the CSA bends over. So yes, as I see it, Bontis should have played even harder ball. It was the only way to clear the heads of the players and get the stakeholders thinking straight.

I think that "ultimatum" would have been an empty threat, and Herdman would have know it.  He knew what the financial situation was at the CSA, and pre-WC he would have plenty of offers from other federations.   Further, half his schtick is having the players buy in to him: if he'd forced the players to play, he would have lost that.  There's no win for him if he does it and plenty of reason for him to ignore the "ultimatum".  And if you did fire him, you would have infuriated the players further and turned the public against you even more, as well as having to pay for a new manager (which they can't afford or they might be considering it now).  The ultimatum wouldn't have worked.

The CSA and the players should have hammered out an agreement before qualifying even began, and I'd love to know why it wasn't.

[MrR]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:32 PM, Bigandy said:

You clearly have an alternative in mind? Which coach could we hire, at herdmans salary, who would be willing and an upgrade on herdman.  Surely you dont want us to fire the most succesful coach we've arguably ever had without an alternative in mind? 

Why are so negative? If you have a better solution, lets hear it? 

Your question: "Which coach could we hire at Herdman's salary, who would be willing and an upgrade of Herdman?" 

My answer: Bev Priestman. She's already on the CSA payroll, so we don't have to waste time and money looking for a new coach. And surely with that $5M interest free loan from FIFA, we could easily upgrade Prieestman's pay grade to equal what Herdman is receiving

On your second point, you are once again wrong. Herdman is not the most successful coach we've arguably ever had. He was only able to win an Olympic bronze with basically the same players Priestman was able to win gold with! Hence, since gold is way more emblematic of success than bronze, wouldn't you agree that Priestman is the most successful coach we've arguably ever had? Hence if the CSA can justify promoting a male coach from the women's national team to the men's national team, it surely should not have a problem promoting a female coach from the women's national team to the men's national team, wouldn't you say? Although, Herdman did go on the record, stating that he had to contend with an awful lot of misogyny at the time of his promotion.

The beauty of it all is that by promoting Priestman to coach the men's national team, we don't even have to fire Herdman, as he can coach the women's national team till his contract expires, which would save the CSA even more money. Now do we really still need that $5M interest free loan from FIFA?

Edited July 5, 2023 by MrR

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

17 hours ago, Bigandy said:

...1. If you do some research, you will see that CSA is unequivocally denying they are looking into bankruptcy. Your information is incorrect...

Have you actually bothered to read the articles? The only person who brought the topic up and for whatever reason decided to put it in the public domain was Jason Devos of the CSA. There are attributed quotes that explicitly state that he has been researching what the implications of bankruptcy would be.

[DeRo_Is_King]

5 hours ago, ECW said:

On what planet was his job saved? Maybe on twitter which doesn’t encourage much actual knowledge… but in reality there is little chance that the CSA will fire him. Nor should they. He’ll almost certainly be our coach at the World Cup in 2026. 

I know his job wasn't actually in jeopardy yesterday, but it should have been. It's not healthy that we are stuck with Herdman. The results have not been great, and still, there is no way to address that with a coaching change if need be. 

[Ottawafan]

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think that "ultimatum" would have been an empty threat, and Herdman would have know it.  He knew what the financial situation was at the CSA, and pre-WC he would have plenty of offers from other federations.   Further, half his schtick is having the players buy in to him: if he'd forced the players to play, he would have lost that.  There's no win for him if he does it and plenty of reason for him to ignore the "ultimatum".  And if you did fire him, you would have infuriated the players further and turned the public against you even more, as well as having to pay for a new manager (which they can't afford or they might be considering it now).  The ultimatum wouldn't have worked.

The CSA and the players should have hammered out an agreement before qualifying even began, and I'd love to know why it wasn't.

It’s a stupid statement, give them an ultimatum.  Although CSA fan boys probably think that was an option. 
 

Players wanted an agreement and have stated they asked the CSA to negotiate during WC qualifying. But the CSA chose to delay the process. 

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

I know his job wasn't actually in jeopardy yesterday, but it should have been. It's not healthy that we are stuck with Herdman. The results have not been great, and still, there is no way to address that with a coaching change if need be. 

I’ve never felt he would be out of job based on the Gold Cup. I do think this summer shouldn’t be viewed successfully based on wins. Canada needs to find new talent, kids who can be integrated into the program. I’m hopeful the NT can add 4/5 guys from this group of new players.