Herdman new head coach

[The Ref]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:39 PM, The Ref said:

Finished reading Sinclair's book Playing the Long Game, in it she writes very complimentary and well deserved stuff about John Herman.  Good book worth reading.

Sinclair also clarifies that Herdman did not apply to coach the men, that the CSA offered him the job and he accepted.

[The Beaver 2.0]

2 hours ago, The Ref said:

Sinclair also clarifies that Herdman did not apply to coach the men, that the CSA offered him the job and he accepted.

But is that truly the official story? Not saying Sinclair is a liar, just that she may have never been given the real version of the truth.

[gator]

I find it interesting that Argentina changed their formation to a 4 man midfield vs Croatia's obvious strength in that area, we tried to play 2 and it didn't go well, perhaps Argentina learned from us?

[Cheeta]

2 hours ago, The Ref said:

Sinclair also clarifies that Herdman did not apply to coach the men, that the CSA offered him the job and he accepted.

That's how I understand it.  Factually correct but man, the absence of some very important details in that statement is not unimportant. 

(The best raise I received as a young man was because someone I'd trained promoted past me.  Kept me in the job, for a while anyway, but I never threatened to quit!  LOL, OK, I was going to but I don't think I ever let it on).  

Got to give it a read.  Don't know why I haven't yet. 

 

  

[An Observer]

37 minutes ago, gator said:

I find it interesting that Argentina changed their formation to a 4 man midfield vs Croatia's obvious strength in that area, we tried to play 2 and it didn't go well, perhaps Argentina learned from us?

Japan basically played a 5-4-1 against them with a lot of success in frustrating them, and frankly, that is what we should have played.  Croatia never scored more than one goal against any opponent other than us and we were the only team they beat (other than on penalties) in their run to the semi-finals.  We just got our tactics horribly wrong, let them play through our midfield and never adjusted in the first half when that was glaringly obvious even before they scored their first goal.  Look at even Argentina, they really were only dangerous on the counter in the first half.  And with players like Davies, David and Buchanan, we could have been as well.  Herdman just got it all wrong (including aggravating them with his F*ck Croatia comment).

[The Ref]

2 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

But is that truly the official story? Not saying Sinclair is a liar, just that she may have never been given the real version of the truth.

It may help you if you read the book.

 

[TGAA_Star]

But Herdman do I think he stays on ad Canada manager? I do yes at least for now but until 2026 I don't know. It is anyone's guess but the likelihood of him still being here for another 4 years in 2026 is less likely.

[The Pessimist]

Herdman used motivation to get us to the World Cup. The World Cup is over for us. To keep Canada competitive in Concacaf we will now need a more tactictical approach. Let's hope Herdman is up to the task.

[InglewoodJack]

The only way I think Herdman is gone before 2026 is if the Premier League calls, and I'm not sure that a club there will give him a shot without prior club experience, especially after how we fared at the world cup. Maybe England pulls the craziest move ever and replaces Southgate with him- Herdman has more experience now than Southgate did when he took the job. I think going to manage a club when you're guaranteed a world cup spot at home for a program you've helped grow for the last decade+ is a risky prospect- if his club performed how Canada has over our last 10 games, he'd probably be out of a job.

[BearcatSA]

^His opportunity to make a higher profile move was after this highest level tourney and incumbent upon success.  Regragui of Morocco, on the other hand, looks like he could punch his ticket for France or Spain at a high profile club there.

[Bigandy]

30 minutes ago, The Pessimist said:

Herdman used motivation to get us to the World Cup. The World Cup is over for us. To keep Canada competitive in Concacaf we will now need a more tactictical approach. Let's hope Herdman is up to the task.

Did you watch the qualifying journey? There was alot more to our team than just motivation. We swapped from a back 4 and 3 pretty seamlessly to cover our weakness at the back, we played mid to low blocks with counters, we high press, we had games where David didnt start (iceteca) for tactical reasons etc. 

Look at each qualifying window and you can see that herdman often tailored his game plans to the opponent for each of the 3 games.  Players talk about how much homework they did on tactics between windows because there just is not enough time in a window to work on everything.

When you look at the fact that we finished first in qualifying, theres no way that happens if we do not have any tactical approaches. 

Lets also acknowledge the difficulties in being tactical when you have such a huge gap in quality between players. Davies, staq and david obviously have a way higher IQ than the frasers, piettes, cavallinis etc. Therefore, the tactical demands can be higher for some players compared to others. We saw it vs uruguay with piette. We could never have a tactical approach of pressing vs elite competition with piette in our midfield as he doesnt read the game quick enough which results in us getting played through. 

I think its ludicrous that many are saying that herdman is not tactical just because we lost every game at the world cup. Did he make mistakes as a coach? yes! Is the tactical approach the reason we didnt win the world cup? Absolutely not! It wouldnt have mattered if we had guardiola as a coach, our squads quality, depth, form and fitness were no where good enough for us to expect to be competing. 

Where were the missing tactics in our WCQ journey that you are alluding to? Which games did we only have motivation rather than a clear tactical game plan?  

[The Pessimist]

28 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Did you watch the qualifying journey? There was alot more to our team than just motivation. We swapped from a back 4 and 3 pretty seamlessly to cover our weakness at the back, we played mid to low blocks with counters, we high press, we had games where David didnt start (iceteca) for tactical reasons etc. 

Look at each qualifying window and you can see that herdman often tailored his game plans to the opponent for each of the 3 games.  Players talk about how much homework they did on tactics between windows because there just is not enough time in a window to work on everything.

When you look at the fact that we finished first in qualifying, theres no way that happens if we do not have any tactical approaches. 

Lets also acknowledge the difficulties in being tactical when you have such a huge gap in quality between players. Davies, staq and david obviously have a way higher IQ than the frasers, piettes, cavallinis etc. Therefore, the tactical demands can be higher for some players compared to others. We saw it vs uruguay with piette. We could never have a tactical approach of pressing vs elite competition with piette in our midfield as he doesnt read the game quick enough which results in us getting played through. 

I think its ludicrous that many are saying that herdman is not tactical just because we lost every game at the world cup. Did he make mistakes as a coach? yes! Is the tactical approach the reason we didnt win the world cup? Absolutely not! It wouldnt have mattered if we had guardiola as a coach, our squads quality, depth, form and fitness were no where good enough for us to expect to be competing. 

Where were the missing tactics in our WCQ journey that you are alluding to? Which games did we only have motivation rather than a clear tactical game plan?  

We lost 2 of our last 3 games.

Costa Rica low blocked us and Herdman had no answer for it.

Panama did the opposite of Costa Rica, they pressed us, and Herdman had no answer for that.

 

[frmr]

At least the name checks out.

[Bigandy]

30 minutes ago, The Pessimist said:

We lost 2 of our last 3 games.

Costa Rica low blocked us and Herdman had no answer for it.

Panama did the opposite of Costa Rica, they pressed us, and Herdman had no answer for that.

 

This seems a bit nearsighted... 

Surely the expectation is not that we win every single game.... no team ever does (especially in concacaf).  It feels like you are implying that if we lose or play poorly, it is 100% a reflection of herdmans tactics. Youre also forgetting to mention that we lost those games but were already qualified for the WC. The job was done. Are you going to say that france is bad tactically because they lost to tunisia. Theres many reasons why we lost.

Costa rica - Against costa rica we had a red card and dominated the AWAY match. What tactical mishap did herdman have? To simply say that we couldnt find a way of winning an away match in concacaf while being down a man for most of the match is not really a tactical issue. Surely you agree that winning away against a very talented costa rica is challenging at the best of times, but going down a man is even more difficult. We had 68% possession and more than double the passes of costa rica. 
-To dominate an away match with only 10 players is surely an indication that we were the better team. If our guys finish any of our 18 shots, we tie or maybe win. It is not a tactical problem that we can't finish. 

Panama - Playing an away game in concacaf against a top opponent without our best player, and without our best CB in the last game of the cycle is always a challenging feat. The field conditions were subpar so its difficult to play around a press. We still had more possession and completed passes. If we had a proper option at CB instead of hutchinson, maybe we win that game, but we simply had no options. Herdman also chose this game to give minutes to a few guys who probably shouldnt have started since we had already qualified. Kone and Cav in particular.  
-It is not a tactical issue that we have no CB depth, field conditions are horrible, a difficult away match, the last game of a grueling window, allowing cav and kone to get minutes since we were already qualified and playing against a top team.
 

If you disagree as to my explanation as to why we lost these games, I would love to hear what tactical choices herdman made, the reasons why they didnt work, and which tactics would have been better.

It does feel a bit lazy and unfair though to simply say "the evidence for my criticism of herdman is that we didnt win every single game". I am all for criticizing our squad, but i believe it should be with the intention to see holes in our game, rather than to be negative without any supporting evidence.

Herdman is not the greatest tactical manager of all time, but he is surely one of the best tactical coaches that canada has ever had and I would be shocked if we could find a better replacement today. (in a few years, that may change) 

[The Pessimist]

39 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

This seems a bit nearsighted... 

Surely the expectation is not that we win every single game.... no team ever does (especially in concacaf).  It feels like you are implying that if we lose or play poorly, it is 100% a reflection of herdmans tactics. Youre also forgetting to mention that we lost those games but were already qualified for the WC. The job was done. Are you going to say that france is bad tactically because they lost to tunisia. Theres many reasons why we lost.

Costa rica - Against costa rica we had a red card and dominated the AWAY match. What tactical mishap did herdman have? To simply say that we couldnt find a way of winning an away match in concacaf while being down a man for most of the match is not really a tactical issue. Surely you agree that winning away against a very talented costa rica is challenging at the best of times, but going down a man is even more difficult. We had 68% possession and more than double the passes of costa rica. 
-To dominate an away match with only 10 players is surely an indication that we were the better team. If our guys finish any of our 18 shots, we tie or maybe win. It is not a tactical problem that we can't finish. 

Panama - Playing an away game in concacaf against a top opponent without our best player, and without our best CB in the last game of the cycle is always a challenging feat. The field conditions were subpar so its difficult to play around a press. We still had more possession and completed passes. If we had a proper option at CB instead of hutchinson, maybe we win that game, but we simply had no options. Herdman also chose this game to give minutes to a few guys who probably shouldnt have started since we had already qualified. Kone and Cav in particular.  
-It is not a tactical issue that we have no CB depth, field conditions are horrible, a difficult away match, the last game of a grueling window, allowing cav and kone to get minutes since we were already qualified and playing against a top team.
 

If you disagree as to my explanation as to why we lost these games, I would love to hear what tactical choices herdman made, the reasons why they didnt work, and which tactics would have been better.

It does feel a bit lazy and unfair though to simply say "the evidence for my criticism of herdman is that we didnt win every single game". I am all for criticizing our squad, but i believe it should be with the intention to see holes in our game, rather than to be negative without any supporting evidence.

Herdman is not the greatest tactical manager of all time, but he is surely one of the best tactical coaches that canada has ever had and I would be shocked if we could find a better replacement today. (in a few years, that may change) 

You also mentioned that there is a huge gap in the quality between our top players and the rest of our ayers. I know that this is subjective, but would you say that that our top 15/16 players are not as talented as Morroco's top 15/16 players. I would say that Canada's top 15 have more individual talent talent than Morroco's top 15 and yet Morroco have advanced further in the World Cup. Perhaps it's the game plan that the coach has employed that has made the difference.

Btw, I do expect that Canada should win every game. That's why I follow the team.  I'm no longer satisfied with just competing.

[Bigandy]

36 minutes ago, The Pessimist said:

You also mentioned that there is a huge gap in the quality between our top players and the rest of our ayers. I know that this is subjective, but would you say that that our top 15/16 players are not as talented as Morroco's top 15/16 players. I would say that Canada's top 15 have more individual talent talent than Morroco's top 15 and yet Morroco have advanced further in the World Cup. Perhaps it's the game plan that the coach has employed that has made the difference.

Btw, I do expect that Canada should win every game. That's why I follow the team.  I'm no longer satisfied with just competing.

This post is completely off topic as we were discussing herdmans tactics and I asked for your tactical opinon haha. However, good question nonetheless. 

I would 100% say that morrocos top 15 are better than our top 15.  I will do my best to compare player for player in the positions they play for the national teams 

1. Bono > borjan (very very very clear after comparing the 2 players perform)
2. Hakimi > johnston  - Easily hakimi 
3. Saiss > Vitoria - Easily Saiss
4. El Yamiq > Miller - Easily El Yamiq
5. Mazroui > Adekugbe/laryea - Easily mazroui
6. Amrabat > eustaqiou - This one could be tough but amrabat is playing out of this world and staq was playing injured at the world cup. I think you have to go with amrabat since we are comparing WC performances. 
7. Amallah vs hutch - TBH i dont know much about amallah but a 39 year old hutch is probably not an obvious upgrade on amallah
8. Ounahi vs oso- Tbh i dont know much about amallah but i dont think oso could make it in the french first division. Even if he does, hes not a clear upgrade over ounahi
9. ziyech vs davies - I think ziyech is a better attacker but davies has a higher ceiling as a LB than ziyech does as a winger. not sure who to pick here but lets go with davies
10. en nesyri < david - David had a poor WC but i think hes the better player
11. Buchanan < boufal - Buchanan is better imo
12. Aboukhlal > Larin - Younger, playing in a better league and scoring. Larin having horrible form this world cup.  aboukhlal wins
13. Cheddira <hoilett - Both division 2 players. I think hoillet wins but i dont know much about Cheddira. 
14. Dari > cornelius - Dari would be our best CB and hes on the bench for morroco. 
15. Ugbo/Kone/ millar/Cav/Laryea/ spoony vs and of their guys - It feels like we are now splitting hairs on which players to compare. 

Takeaways - # 1-5 are huuuge gaps for morroco over our guys 
# 6-8 are medium to small gaps for morroco over our guys
#9-11 are small gaps for us over morroco ( i do feel like i am slightly bias on these.... I can see both sides of the argument)
#12-14....26 - man for man, morroco wins most of these. They have guys playing for genk, sampadoria, burnley, QPR, Osasuna, standard liege, brest

Now add in the fact that morroco has experience in past WC and we don't. Most of their players have experience in big stadiums, we don't. Most of their players are more used to the climate compared to our guys. Most of these guys have gone through 2 WCQ campaigns and this is the first for many of our stars. I think you are dreaming if you think we are better than morroco. 

I'm assuming youre being cheeky about canada winning every game, but if you genuinely believe that the expectation is for canada to accomplish what no other nation has ever done, with the resources we have, you are completely delusional. 

Edit - I forgot to even include Aguerd who would arguably be a top 5 player for Canada. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Bigandy

[Kadenge]

On paper/talent Morocco's top 15/16 players are hands down, way better than our current top 15/16

[The Beaver 2.0]

Just some clarity on the recent-ish spate of criticism here wrt Herdman's tactics at the WC.  I, for one, feel that Herdman got his tactics all wrong versus Croatia, and I'm not sure how such criticism can be considered unfair or unfounded. It isn't just that he got them wrong to start the game, but he never adjusted the tactics once it was amply clear we were getting killed down the middle, especially down Hutch's side.  So, yes, based on this, I feel that Herdman is not as strong tactically as we need him to be.  I think he is improving, but he still comes across as naive in places, and this part of his job remains a worry for me.  Can he improve?  Perhaps. I am optimistic, and I certainly feel he deserves to continue managing our NT. But it would be foolish of us--and the CSA, and Herdman himself--to pretend he's the finished product in this area.  I DO feel he got caught up in the hype of our excellent performance vs. Belgium, and that he let emotions (and over confidence) influence how he set us up for Croatia. We need him to be smarter, plain and simple. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by The Beaver 2.0

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Just some clarity on the recent-ish spate of criticism here wrt Herdman's tactics at the WC.  I, for one, feel that Herdman got his tactics all wrong versus Croatia, and I'm not sure how such criticism can be considered unfair or unfounded. It isn't just that he got them wrong to start the game, but he never adjusted the tactics once it was amply clear we were getting killed down the middle, especially down Hutch's side.  So, yes, based on this, I feel that Herdman is not as strong tactically as we need him to be.  I think he is improving, but he still comes across as naive in places, and this part of his job remains a worry for me.  Can he improve?  Perhaps. I am optimistic, and I certainly feel he deserves to continue managing our NT. But it would be foolish of us--and the CSA, and Herdman himself--to pretend he's the finished product in this area.  I DO feel he got caught him in the hype of our excellent performance vs. Belgium, and that he let emotions (and over confidence) influence how he set us up for Croatia. We need him to be smarter, plain and simple. 

He could have very well identified that we were getting killed in the middle but his hands were tied. Staq and hutch couldnt go 90 and he rode them as hard as he could. Imagine Oso, MAK and Kone vs croatias midfield. That would for sure be a massacre. At least with playing 3-4-3 we get another attacking player on the field who is at a higher quality than our midfield options. We can then take a risk to try and win by being aggressive up front even though we would lose the midfield battle. It clearly didnt work out, but i think its naive to think the reason we lost is because we didnt start a midfield 3 of low quality players. We lost because croatia is soooo much better than us. Would a midfield 3 have helped, probably.... but we still would have been smashed. 

Do you think its possible he could know the tactical solutions but doesnt have the players to implement it? He was able to do it against teams that are equal or slightly better than us. Is he able to make canada tactically good enough to win a WC - Absolutely not.... neither is any other coach in the world if they had the time, money and resources that the CSA/our team is given. 

We as fans had next to zero hope that our squad would make the world cup. Herdman preforms miracles in recruitment, motivation, team selection and tactics and we manage to come first in qualifying.... against all odds. However because herdman has worked wonders, some people move the goal post, expecting us to compete and beat 2 semi finalists and the #2 team in the world. Now people say hes not good enough to coach canada anymore. The changing of expectations is ludicrous and without herdman, we would not be in Qatar and our outlook on results in 26 would be bleak.


 

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Just some clarity on the recent-ish spate of criticism here wrt Herdman's tactics at the WC.  I, for one, feel that Herdman got his tactics all wrong versus Croatia, and I'm not sure how such criticism can be considered unfair or unfounded. It isn't just that he got them wrong to start the game, but he never adjusted the tactics once it was amply clear we were getting killed down the middle, especially down Hutch's side.  So, yes, based on this, I feel that Herdman is not as strong tactically as we need him to be.  I think he is improving, but he still comes across as naive in places, and this part of his job remains a worry for me.  Can he improve?  Perhaps. I am optimistic, and I certainly feel he deserves to continue managing our NT. But it would be foolish of us--and the CSA, and Herdman himself--to pretend he's the finished product in this area.  I DO feel he got caught him in the hype of our excellent performance vs. Belgium, and that he let emotions (and over confidence) influence how he set us up for Croatia. We need him to be smarter, plain and simple. 

Herdman seems to learn after tactical blunders, and tactical blunders seem to happen when the level/stakes jump up, but I don't necessarily think it's the level/stakes itself that's responsible for the blunders, but rather how Herdman decides to approach the level/stakes.

1. Gold Cup 2019
   1. First GC under Herdman
   2. Faced a few minnows before 2 big tests (Mexico & Haiti)
      1. Mexico...triple sub...game changed when he brought on Arfield, David, Hoilett/Kaye? in the 60th minute...but too little, too late. Tactical error starting these big guns from the bench. Gamble didn't pay off
      2. Haiti....arguably more on the team than Herdman...but he was responsible for putting the team out there. 
2. NL 2019
   1. First NL under Herdman
   2. Faced the USA twice (and beating Cuba twice)
      1. USA @ BMO was a master stroke in every way. Gamble with Davies up front paid off 
      2. USA away at Orlando was a disaster. Tactically we could have been more conservative, only needing a draw, but he asked the players if they want to go for it and we lost 4-1. Yes they scored early, but still....Gamble letting the players decide the tactics didn't pay off.
3. Gold Cup 2021
   1. Second GC under Herdman
   2. No games we can be critical of in terms of tactics and performance in general. The group did excellent considering the obstacles in terms of players being out or unavailable.
   3. Herdman seemed to learn. No big gambles I recall. 
4. WCQ
   1. Game 1 never went to plan. The rest were nearly flawless in terms of tactics and results.
   2. Herdman seemed to learn. No big gambles. The biggest "gamble" perhaps was alternating David and Larin (esp against Mexico @ Iceteca), but it didn't really feel like a gamble...if that makes sense. 
5. WC
   1. Feels to me a lot like NL 2019 and GC 2019. We committed to a strategy (in this case 2 man midfield..dominate the flanks) and died on our own sword, refusing to change or adjust the game plan. Just like we failed to adjust in Orlando in NL. And I liken it to GC 19 because it felt naive back then just as it did now in WC 22.

 

There's nothing bigger than WC so I think/feel/hope/believe Herdman will have learned. Nothing will be new (aside from CA) from here on out, so hopefully there should be no more out-of-the-box gambles - or at least there should be less of them.

 

[Bison44]

I dont think just because Herdman worked wonders in qualifying we should ignore tactical mistakes.  Or to flip around what you said about losing games, just becasue we won doesnt mean we always had good tactics and we should sweep that under the rug.  And we do have players to run with the best in CONCACAF now so the things the staff did get wrong didnt spell doom like it did against WC competition.  

Getting Atiba off the field and OSO/KAYE etc was obvious to everyone....and it didnt happen, and I dont see how they could have been any worse than Hutch at that point.  Just becasue we were likely to lose that game no matter what, doesnt mean that \herdman didnt make mistakes that made it a certainty.  

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Herdman seems to learn after tactical blunders, and tactical blunders seem to happen when the level/stakes jump up, but I don't necessarily think it's the level/stakes itself that's responsible for the blunders, but rather how Herdman decides to approach the level/stakes.

1. Gold Cup 2019
   1. First GC under Herdman
   2. Faced a few minnows before 2 big tests (Mexico & Haiti)
      1. Mexico...triple sub...game changed when he brought on Arfield, David, Hoilett/Kaye? in the 60th minute...but too little, too late. Tactical error starting these big guns from the bench. Gamble didn't pay off
      2. Haiti....arguably more on the team than Herdman...but he was responsible for putting the team out there. 
2. NL 2019
   1. First NL under Herdman
   2. Faced the USA twice (and beating Cuba twice)
      1. USA @ BMO was a master stroke in every way. Gamble with Davies up front paid off 
      2. USA away at Orlando was a disaster. Tactically we could have been more conservative, only needing a draw, but he asked the players if they want to go for it and we lost 4-1. Yes they scored early, but still....Gamble letting the players decide the tactics didn't pay off.
3. Gold Cup 2021
   1. Second GC under Herdman
   2. No games we can be critical of in terms of tactics and performance in general. The group did excellent considering the obstacles in terms of players being out or unavailable.
   3. Herdman seemed to learn. No big gambles I recall. 
4. WCQ
   1. Game 1 never went to plan. The rest were nearly flawless in terms of tactics and results.
   2. Herdman seemed to learn. No big gambles. The biggest "gamble" perhaps was alternating David and Larin (esp against Mexico @ Iceteca), but it didn't really feel like a gamble...if that makes sense. 
5. WC
   1. Feels to me a lot like NL 2019 and GC 2019. We committed to a strategy (in this case 2 man midfield..dominate the flanks) and died on our own sword, refusing to change or adjust the game plan. Just like we failed to adjust in Orlando in NL. And I liken it to GC 19 because it felt naive back then just as it did now in WC 22.

 

There's nothing bigger than WC so I think/feel/hope/believe Herdman will have learned. Nothing will be new (aside from CA) from here on out, so hopefully there should be no more out-of-the-box gambles - or at least there should be less of them.

 

Love this analysis !!!! 

1.2.1 - Not starting the big guns against mexico so they are rested for the must win games isnt really a tactical inability. Its a player selection strategy but doesnt prove or disprove herdmans ability to make tactical decisions. 

2.2 - Fair enough. However getting scored on in the 2nd minute is usually not a result of tactics, but rather individual errors. Once you are down early, its hard to come back against a team that is better than us. But ya, herdman couldve done much better. 

5.1 - I love this analysis. I would add that i think we had our tactics correct against belguim. If we score the PK, finish any of our chances, and deal with one simple long ball, then we win the game. Individual errors cost us and I don't think our shape is the reason for losing this game. 
Croatia- I agree with your analysis.... i will add that its hard to adjust to a 3 man midfield when you lose atiba and staq. You only have an unfit oso, out of form kaye, recently returned spoony, and piette/fraser who are clearly well below croatias level. Herdman could have started with 3 guys though. Gamble that did not work out at all..... Would anything have worked against croatia though ? 
Morroco - Again i dont think it was a huge tactical mistake that cost us the loss. Borjan was horrible and gifted them the first goal. He could have saved the second as well. Considering how quality morroco has been this tournament, i think we preformed exceptionally well given that we played oso and kaye as our CM's. 
 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

I dont think just because Herdman worked wonders in qualifying we should ignore tactical mistakes.  Or to flip around what you said about losing games, just becasue we won doesnt mean we always had good tactics and we should sweep that under the rug.  And we do have players to run with the best in CONCACAF now so the things the staff did get wrong didnt spell doom like it did against WC competition.  

Getting Atiba off the field and OSO/KAYE etc was obvious to everyone....and it didnt happen, and I dont see how they could have been any worse than Hutch at that point.  Just becasue we were likely to lose that game no matter what, doesnt mean that \herdman didnt make mistakes that made it a certainty.  

Great point on the flipping it around! 

Good point on the atiba sub in the croatia game. 
Aside from the croatia game, do you think herdman got the tactics wrong vs belguim and morroco? 

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

There's nothing bigger than WC so I think/feel/hope/believe Herdman will have learned. Nothing will be new (aside from CA) from here on out, so hopefully there should be no more out-of-the-box gambles - or at least there should be less of them.

I like your break down of things here.  I think he will learn from the setbacks.  He has a growth mindset and this will serve him well in prepping for '26 .

[Kadenge]

Herdman seems to excel in the underdog role. I think he gets a bit too cocky when he is bullish. There are examples of this in the post by @Obinna. We definitely were underdogs v Croatia but I think John got a bit smug with all the praise from the press, Belgium coaches/players etc. The eff Croatia happened soon after the Belgium game. I don't think he says that unless he was pumped...i.e a  natural high. Almost everyone on this board wanted a 3 man mid and so did the panel on TSN. We needed an extra body in there to clog up the middle. Oso could have started with Atiba & Staq. We still had Kone & Kaye for subs. John is still the right person to lead this team for now but as more players move to bigger leagues/teams, the tactical acumen of the coaching staff collectively has to get much better.