Herdman new head coach

[jonovision]

Herdman may have reached the limits of what he can accomplish with this team (although I wouldn't say that). But that the chances of the next manager being better are not that great.

[JAVIERF]

2 hours ago, Califax said:

It’s difficult I’ve never really liked Herdman at all. But obviously he was the guy to get us there in full credit for doing so. I was dead wrong. 
 

If he decides to go a different way and we get someone else who is a little bit more of a tactician and less of a cheerleader, I think it’ll do the program wonders. Then again I might be dead wrong about that too.

Yeah I don't like him for a few things but I'm not Canadian.  There is something odd in his personality,  Dalic said "mad" .  

1). I don't like that haircut for a 40 something man,  that's weird its like he wants to be a teen.

2) When he speaks he sounds phoney and fishy,  like he doesn't want to speak up his mind.  

3)he is a fan of his players,  he should be the commander,  the penalty kick and all the center fold of poster boy Davies.

 

And for me there is something between David and Davies something off!! But maybe is my especulation.  David can't perform with Alphonso on the team too

[Stanley]

3 minutes ago, JAVIERF said:

Yeah I don't like him for a few things but I'm not Canadian.  There is something odd in his personality,  Dalic said "mad" .  

1). I don't like that haircut for a 40 something man,  that's weird its like he wants to be a teen.

Yeah that's a biggie.  I know I look for a good haircut in a coach.

[TOcanadafan]

Managers get it wrong some time.  It’s crazy how many people want his head after this sub-par game (which I agree he made some bad choices).  I echo what others have already said - do you think we’d be able to get someone better? And who would that be? Would you want a guy like Triple-G?  Tata Martino? Gareth Southgate?  These guys have higher-profile gigs and seem to get things wrong all the time. 

I understand the shelf life argument, but I’d argue the shelf life for an International manager is longer than a club one as they don’t spend nearly as much time with the players.  This is a team with a young core and I doubt they’ve exhausted Herdman’s message at this point.
 

[JAVIERF]

4 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

Managers get it wrong some time.  It’s crazy how many people want his head after this sub-par game (which I agree he made some bad choices).  I echo what others have already said - do you think we’d be able to get someone better? And who would that be? Would you want a guy like Triple-G?  Tata Martino? Gareth Southgate?  These guys have higher-profile gigs and seem to get things wrong all the time. 

I understand the shelf life argument, but I’d argue the shelf life for an International manager is longer than a club one as they don’t spend nearly as much time with the players.  This is a team with a young core and I doubt they’ve exhausted Herdman’s message at this point.
 

republic of Ireland and Australia were after Bielsa,  and have checked his availability a few months ago

[xcalibre]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

Herdman may have reached the limits of what he can accomplish with this team (although I wouldn't say that). But that the chances of the next manager being better are not that great.

Yeah, you wonder if he's reached his limit, and anyone coaching the MNT by the next camp should be the long-term plan for 2026.

Love Herdman but he seemed a bit overwhelmed by the big stage, making weird omissions (not preparing for penalties) and tactical miscues.

I know Ancelotti makes very little sense other than the Vancouver connection (and you can't imagine the CSA having anywhere near the degree of competence to make it happen) but at least he'd be a calming influence in high-pressure moments like this

[VinceA]

Reflecting a bit more:

 

It's only two games he's coached at this WC and really Herdman was spot on against Belgium it's just this game today he fucked up on and it got us eliminated. Really the Belgium game, as everyone mentioned, was the one for the taking.

 I guess he figured after Croatia's listless performance against Morocco he could exploit them the same as Belgium. That didn't work outside the early goal (I don't really like early goals as the false sense of security often fucks over the leading team) and then we were punished. I do wish he trusted the guys he brought more. It's a shame he didn't have more faith in the likes of Piette, Wotherspoon or Kaye to step up with Hutch and Staq not fully fit.

I hope he learns from this.

[JAVIERF]

Croatia coach complained that being the runner up of 2018 wc final very early 1st match against his team performance

[Watchmen]

I think the CMNT is now a more interesting job for managers, and I think we could find a better manager tactically than Herdman. But I don't think we could do it at a price the CSA can afford (especially if they'd have to buy out Herdman to make the change). Herdman understands the limitations of the CSA. I think you go with him for now and hope he continues to learn about the game at a higher level, and you don't really for a change unless the team really stagnates. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

The best argument for keeping Herdman is that he holds the CSA together, if you just hire a competent manager who reads games and players well, he may find the administration of the programme is a lot weaker than he imagined.

Herdman's motivation may be related to his family situation, the age of his kids and the like.

As for this WC, he got Belgium right, which is the game we had to work on. And we were in it yesterday until mid 2nd half.

I was bewildered especially by Atiba, and thought the Eustaquio "pause" was to help calm the team. But I now appreciate that if Eustaquio goes off, you may not want to pull both mids at the same time. So I'm not sure he was a disaster yesterday.

We just need work overall as a team, and especially on how we associate on the pitch. Our playing style if you like. And enhancing the role and effectivity of key talents like David, Davies and Eustaquio.

I think he has to stay until Nations League and the Gold Cup. Two opportunities to win a trophy. A more natural ending to the cycle, if it has to be, than leaving this winter.

[gator]

2 hours ago, jonovision said:

Herdman may have reached the limits of what he can accomplish with this team (although I wouldn't say that). But that the chances of the next manager being better are not that great.

I am not calling for his head but if he has reached his ceiling it will be a long 4 years leading up to 2026, I wouldn't be completely surprised if JH jumps ship, he has got some world wide attention and there could be clubs willing to throw some $$$ at him and take a chance, he has been mentioned for the vacant job at QPR fwiw! As far as replacing him if he was to leave, I would hope the CSA has a decent budget for that position because there is always a chance you get the right guy to move the team forward and take the next step!

[An Observer]

9 hours ago, VinceA said:

One thing KJ pointed out was Herdman lost trust with some of his midfielders and ended up with only 2 he could rely on. A damn shame it happened so close to the tournament.

He was in love with Kaye until he started becoming the inconsistent player he is today, and it seems arguably he doesn't think Piette can hang at this level (rightly or wrongly, perhaps he could've eased the burden on Eustaquio and Hutch) not to mention Fraser's choice to go play at a really low level and Wotherspoon's injury. Kone was also just too young and inexperienced.

I am not going to rag on Herdman to the point that he needs to go.  I agree with the view that he got us here by motivating this group and getting the best out of some limited players at the back and in the midfield.  

That being said, he let the occasion get the best of him and seemed after the Belgium match to sort have lost it. He got his tactics all wrong for this one. You cannot play two in the centre midfield against 3, especially when those 3 are one of the better midfields in the world and one of our two is a 39 year old vet who was playing only his third match since June.  You could see by the 20’ minute they were targeting Hutch and just playing through him. He should have made the bold decision to withdraw Larin (who was poor) and put on Kone to clog the midfield and shut that down.  I was Sitting in the stands just watching it and you could just see it happening in front of your eyes.

if he lost faith in his midfielders, he should have brought in Arfield for one of them as we all know that he was in form and available.  He was on the long list and would have played if called.

[Bison44]

^^^  Oh boy...you said it........the ultimate grenade.  Get your flak jacket on and dig the foxhole a bit deeper, its going to get ugly.  

[Allez les Rouges]

I think all this talk about Herdman's ceiling is overdone. Let's consider the context:

- Davies missed the last 6 qualifiers, the tune up game against Japan and was basically not 100% until the day before the Belgium game. Sure, Herdman hasn't managed to figure out how to get the most out of Davies, but frankly his opportunities to do so have been severely limited. If he still can't sort this out over time, then absolutely it's a huge problem, but for now I think it's too early to say Herdman can't do it.

- Our midfield personnel is thin to begin with, and Eustaquio was injured. Not sure any coach could've stifled Croatia the way Morocco did.

- This was Canada's first competitive game against an opponent that is much stronger than any team in CONCACAF (the way Belgium is playing, it'd probably struggle against USA/MEX too) since the Confederations Cup in 2001. Yes, Herdman deserves criticism for not switching to a more conservative formation/lineup around the 30' mark when we could sense the equalizer coming - e.g. sub off Larin and Hutchinson for Osorio and Piette - and playing for a 1-0 win or 1-1 draw. Might have given us a shot, although I think we probably would've still lost 2-1. There's probably a lesson to be learned about not being overly aggressive against a much stronger opponent, and Herdman seems like a smart enough guy to learn it.

Beyond all this, even if Canada could bring in a coach with better tactics that can figure out the right way to fit Davies (and David) in tomorrow, we also have to keep in mind Herdman's extraordinary qualities to motivate people and unite the team, which is what got Canada into the World Cup in the first place. And as Watchmen mentioned: how many world-class coaches would be affordable and put up with the nonsense at Canada Soccer?

[narduch]

3 hours ago, gator said:

I am not calling for his head but if he has reached his ceiling it will be a long 4 years leading up to 2026, I wouldn't be completely surprised if JH jumps ship, he has got some world wide attention and there could be clubs willing to throw some $$$ at him and take a chance, he has been mentioned for the vacant job at QPR fwiw! As far as replacing him if he was to leave, I would hope the CSA has a decent budget for that position because there is always a chance you get the right guy to move the team forward and take the next step!

Interestingly the QPR job just became vacant as Rangers just scooped up their manager

[Unnamed Trialist]

As I have said on other threads, I think he has a natural cycle at least until next summer. With this team, competing as we do in Concacaf, we have a Nations League and a Gold Cup, two trophies we should try to win. We haven't even played a final since the GC win. That would be an amazing accomplishment, to make a final, meaning beating either Mexico or the US. Then facing the other to win silverware. And something to celebrate, go out--if it is that--on a high note.

Apart from this, Herdman's daughter I believe is still 11 or 12. Often career choices can be made in function of kids, of their development cycles. Very often the non-English speaking coaches make decisions this way, looking for how a change might benefit the family (ie kids can learn English when young); players do it too, like going to MLS, later in their careers. The Herdman's may choose to give her the stability of her teen years in Vancouver, which would take him up to 2026. His son, already playing for New Zealand youth and in his late teens, can fend for himself.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 hours ago, VinceA said:

...It's a shame he didn't have more faith in the likes of Piette, Wotherspoon or Kaye to step up with Hutch and Staq not fully fit...

Hindsight is 20/20 but one of Davies, Buchanan, Larin and David probably should have been on the bench to make way for an extra central midfielder with a very high workrate willing to play a more defensive role aimed at countering what Croatia had to offer in that part of the field.

Midway through the first half it was obvious that Croatia were going to score soon and go onto win the game comfortably if an adjustment wasn't made. Maybe Herdman's coaching style is about always keeping his most technically gifted players happy and eventually against an opponent of a certain quality when the team needs to be set up differently from an octagonal game that was going to come unstuck.

[DeRo_Is_King]

2 hours ago, An Observer said:

I am not going to rag on Herdman to the point that he needs to go.  I agree with the view that he got us here by motivating this group and getting the best out of some limited players at the back and in the midfield.  

That being said, he let the occasion get the best of him and seemed after the Belgium match to sort have lost it. He got his tactics all wrong for this one. You cannot play two in the centre midfield against 3, especially when those 3 are one of the better midfields in the world and one of our two is a 39 year old vet who was playing only his third match since June.  You could see by the 20’ minute they were targeting Hutch and just playing through him. He should have made the bold decision to withdraw Larin (who was poor) and put on Kone to clog the midfield and shut that down.  I was Sitting in the stands just watching it and you could just see it happening in front of your eyes.

if he lost faith in his midfielders, he should have brought in Arfield for one of them as we all know that he was in form and available.  He was on the long list and would have played if called.

Pre-game, I thought about getting a third mid in there and thought Kone could fill that gap. At the same time, our finishing has been so poor that I understand why Larin started. The Eustaquio injury really did us in. 

[DeRo_Is_King]

9 hours ago, Califax said:

It’s difficult I’ve never really liked Herdman at all. But obviously he was the guy to get us there in full credit for doing so. I was dead wrong. 
 

If he decides to go a different way and we get someone else who is a little bit more of a tactician and less of a cheerleader, I think it’ll do the program wonders. Then again I might be dead wrong about that too.

This has always been the issue with him for me -- not so much the tactician part, but seeing him as a cheerleader.

It's one thing to praise good performances, but they actually have to be good. We missed a ton of chances and still lost vs Belgium, but you'd think we played amazing and won if you listened to Herdman. Self-awareness is important at this level or you'll get spanked, as we saw yesterday.

Also, if he actually didn't want to shake Dalic's hand postgame after insulting his team unprovoked, then that's an amateurish move as well. But the facts around what happened there are unclear, and Kramaric's comment was also unprofessional. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by DeRo_Is_King

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 hours ago, JAVIERF said:

...3)he is a fan of his players,  he should be the commander,  the penalty kick...

Don't think the haircut and phoney comments are worth pursuing but the penalty against Belgium was definitely a strange one and left me wondering at the time if there was a little too much player power on his team. Was watching that thinking I know where he is going to put this he's making it far too easy for the keeper but no he plays for Bayern so he must have some special trick planned. Then up he steps and....

 

[TOcanadafan]

8 hours ago, gator said:

 I wouldn't be completely surprised if JH jumps ship, he has got some world wide attention and there could be clubs willing to throw some $$$ at him and take a chance, he has been mentioned for the vacant job at QPR fwiw!

This is a good point.  Listening to the Guardian podcast last night, one pundit also mentioned this… used a phrase like “if he decides to stay with Canada”… I’m thinking it may be more likely that he leaves us, rather than we get rid of him. 

[Ansem]

I'll avoid repeating what was already said but I think that his management of this tournament was poor in general. I'll say this though - we always bounced back from poor managed tournaments under Herdman...

Much better Gold Cup after the one where we collapsed against Haiti and this Nation League will be better than the 4-1 loss in the US. I think the way the WCQ unfolded was evidence that he did learned from past mistake.

This was his 1st Men's World Cup, I expect him to analyze/over-analyze it and learn for 2026 what to do and what not to do from "penalty takers", managing locker room drama (the Arfield thing should have squashed months ago), rotation and not be naive against world powers. Of course - off pitch behavior as well. (Sid Sixeiro said that the Croatian coach wanted to shake his hand after the game and he wasn't there to greet him. If true - disappointing)

 

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

This is a good point.  Listening to the Guardian podcast last night, one pundit also mentioned this… used a phrase like “if he decides to stay with Canada”… I’m thinking it may be more likely that he leaves us, rather than we get rid of him. 

I think he'll stick around for the "home" World Cup with a core of stars hitting their prime. The CSA will pay him - however, he most likely leaves right after 2026

[gigi riva]

Herdman has been great for Soccer in this country and I hope he stays as Manager  or remains with The CSA  in some sort of capacity . We have entered a new era  in Soccer  in this country  and we have improved in such short time .

[VinceA]

I think we're also all a bit raw because we got bounced in two games and are the second team eliminated after Qatar. That stings.