Herdman new head coach

[Unnamed Trialist]

I hope he doesn't say he "deeply regrets" leaving.

I'd almost prefer us to legally bind him to stay rather than having to hear he regrets not being able to.

[frmr]

44 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

I honestly don't care if he leaves. I wasn't happy when he got hired in the first place. Almost every big game we have played he has made personnel or tactical errors. We have almost always started the games on the back foot, which is directly down to the manager. 

It has been mentioned before, but he did well with the women and when he left they did even better. There is no reason someone else can't take us to the next level.

Oh my sweet summer child.

[trc2014]

30 minutes ago, narduch said:

I can't keep up with all the new posts, but did anyone mention the rumour that Herdman has lost the room?

Maybe he's leaving now before it gets worse.

Nope - I mentioned on here a few weeks ago the rumour that a bunch of players wouldn’t circle up at half time and went straight to the tunnel at the US game in LV, but no one had an additional insight.  I didn’t see it happen at the game 

[SpursFlu]

I think Herdman did better than I thought he would. I appreciate what he brought and what he achieved. He did well and I think he probably did a very good job getting people excited about the cmnt

At the same time, I think its time to make a change and I think its a little crazy to think even with a modest budget we can't replace him. Look at the US, they had a lifelong assistant mls coach step in and do fine. The world doesn't start and end with John Herdman 

Edited August 22, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Stoppage Time]

3 hours ago, VinceA said:

Considering the CSA's finances are more dead than fried chicken I feel like they'll just promote one if the assistants than actually try to get someone new.

Maybe they can go after a CPL coach.

So if Herdman is let go, we pay out his contract from the fried chicken fund. Do we have to pay him if he resigns to coach a club?

[Obinna]

40 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

So if Herdman is let go, we pay out his contract from the fried chicken fund. Do we have to pay him if he resigns to coach a club?

It's a good question. I think @Shway brought up the benefit of a low budget coach would be more room for camps and such, but what about a potential severance package? That could be costly in the short term and Wheeler did say the severance package is pretty substantial. Something to think about. 

[Obinna]

I know he's unavailable now and probably would have been outside our budget anyways, but I wonder what Klinsmann would have been like?

He recently took over at South Korea, which is a very respectable national team. He knows concacaf and knows how to advance in the World Cup as a coach and a player. Considering that we gave Herdman a raise I wonder if Klinsmann would have been affordable. He's no tactical genius, but he's a figurehead and someone who'd inspire confidence for this Canadian fan. Americans were split on him and probably still are, but we'd do well to get someone like that, assuming Herdman really does leave. Good enough for the Koreans, so definitely would have been good enough for us. 

I cannot really think of another name who is available, inspires confidence, knows our region, and has experience (winning) at the world cup.

[Obinna]

Final thoughts before I shut it down for today:

We are in such disarray that I really cannot see anyone coming into this job from the outside. I really can't. Okay if it's someone like Bobby Smyrniotis then sure, I can see that, but outside of a CPL hire it's hard to imagine. The CSA is such a mess at the best of times, but in these especially turbulent times I do not trust them to make a quick hire, let alone the right hire. I think they'll take the path of least resistance and offer the job to Neville or failing that Biello. 

I have no idea what the players think of Neville, nor do I know what he's like as a leader, but he did lead the English women for 3 years and knows concacaf, or at least MLS - where his track record isn't too impressive. Coaching at Inter Miami aside though, at least he's a "big name" that's probably within budget and knows the players and culture.

Assuming John doesn't leave and gut the staff to take his people, I can see some continuity with someone like Neville, or Biello, and that's CRITICAL at a time like this. Here's why I lean Neville...

This may be superficial or even unecessary, but I really feel like a "name" would be important heading into the World Cup, which we are hosting. With all due respect Biello isn't the man I see leading us into that tournament. I just have trouble seeing it. Neville though is someone who, on the stregth of the name, may inspire some confidence. Maybe this is just me, but I feel that could count for something. 

If we don't give a damn about that, roll the dice on Smyrniotis and let us have a true underdog story in the lead up. Would be a great way to promote CPL and expectations are already pretty low after we shit the bed last world cup. @Shway I gotta admit I am warming up to it....not the worst idea in the world. It would be very Canadian in a good way. 

Or we could run back Stephen Hart. He's available 

[SoccMan]

7 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Wow, there've been some pretty fantastic takes on all of this, and a lot of them.

Do I feel, for the sake of the program, that this is the best time for Herdman to move on? No, not really. I feel the program still stood to benefit from his vision, drive, and organization. Having said that, if he feels he needs to move on, then it is most certainly the right time for him to do so for himself and the team. We need a coach/manager who is all-in, no matter what. Who the hell that might be, I have no idea.  I like the idea of a cat like Christiansen (Panama), to be honest.

As for why Herdman is leaving: We won't know until he tells us, but a desire to be involved day-to-day with a squad could be one, as well as more stability for his family (less travel), and perhaps also a more stable employer. (Sure, his potential new employer seems to have its head up its ass, but it has deep pockets, and the organization needs a turnaround guy, and that is Herdman to a tee. Like every employee, you want to be set up for success, and I wonder if John's lost all confidence in the CSA being that place for him. And also: opportunity to manage/coach what should be a top MLS side.)

What worries me most is that we're heading towards a WC on our turf and the CSA seems to be in disarray.

As for the culture of our existing bunch of players, I feel confident that all of the good stuff they learned from Herdman--and played a significant role in fostering--now lives in them and will inform how they go about their business for years to come. That is part of his legacy and it will now be up to the players to keep it going, which I feel they will indeed do.

The CSA is in shambles , finances are in shambles . Our rivals in this region are playing friendly after friendly and Canada has barely one game lined up in the very near future . If the CSA house was in order and more importantly Canada was able to play as many friendlies as the rest of Canada’s main rivals are playing in this region I would highly doubt that you would have heard any rumblings of him leaving . This is why he is considering leaving plain and simple in my opinion . Whoever’s fault it is for the CSA being in this position has been debated over and over , however , a huge wasted opportunity for soccer in Canada is happening in front of our eyes with Canada finally playing in a World Cup last December and Canada co hosting the World Cup in 2026  unfortunately.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

So if Herdman is let go, we pay out his contract from the fried chicken fund. Do we have to pay him if he resigns to coach a club?

No, but it's probably more a case of the CSA allowing him out of his contract at that point. The CSA might even be able to negotiate some compensation from TFC over that.

[Shway]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

It's a good question. I think @Shway brought up the benefit of a low budget coach would be more room for camps and such, but what about a potential severance package? That could be costly in the short term and Wheeler did say the severance package is pretty substantial. Something to think about. 

Severance package only happens if the CSA wants to sever ties with JH. But the rumours are that he wants to leave, so I'm sure there isn't a package. If there is, that's another horrible negotiation for the CSA.

[DeRo_Is_King]

2 minutes ago, Shway said:

7 hours ago, Obinna said:

It's a good question. I think @Shway brought up the benefit of a low budget coach would be more room for camps and such, but what about a potential severance package? That could be costly in the short term and Wheeler did say the severance package is pretty substantial. Something to think about. 

Severance package only happens if the CSA wants to sever ties with JH. But the rumours are that he wants to leave, so I'm sure there isn't a package. If there is, that's another horrible negotiation for the CSA.

Probably going to be accurate, unless he doesn't move soon. If the thought lingers that he is not engaged and is looking for other work, yet doesn't leave, he may be let go and given severance. I think this is highly improbable, though, as he seems close to a TFC move. 

[Shway]

7 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Probably going to be accurate, unless he doesn't move soon. If the thought lingers that he is not engaged and is looking for other work, yet doesn't leave, he may be let go and given severance. I think this is highly improbable, though, as he seems close to a TFC move. 

JH is in a position of extreme power. The CSA can't afford (literally and figuratively) to let him go due to circumstances we know.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Shway

[DeRo_Is_King]

4 minutes ago, Shway said:

JH is in a position of extreme power. The CSA can't afford (literally and figuratively) to let him go due to circumstances we know.

For sure. That's why I said it is highly improbable. 

[dyslexic nam]

16 minutes ago, Shway said:

JH is in a position of extreme power. The CSA can't afford (literally and figuratively) to let him go due to circumstances we know.

I don’t really see it that way.  Herdman is probably making pretty good money (didn’t he just renegotiate a raise not too long ago?).  And in reference to a previous question, there is no way the CSA would be on the hook if it is Herdman that decides to walk away from the contract for another position.  

So there isn’t a financial penalty that would be associated with his exit.  We would have to find another coach obviously but I am not nearly as pessimistic as some on here and I think we could do it given the financial room we would have (up to Herdman’s current salary) and the fact that we have a really talented, young squad.  We are guaranteed some competitive games in NL and potentially Copa, we have a guaranteed reserve at WC2026, and the friendly issue will get sorted (even the CSA isn’t going to sabotage our WC by not playing games in the buildup).  

I know that the CSA has some issues right now but so do lots of other federations that manage to attract coaches.  There are definitely candidates who would be willing to sign on.  I just don’t see any justification for this idea that we are screwed if he decides to jump ship.  We have functioned before him and we will function after him.   

Edited August 22, 2023 by dyslexic nam

[Gian-Luca]

IMO Herdman is betting against himself if he wants to make such a move now - there's a good chance he would be neither TFC's coach nor Canada's coach come the 2026 World Cup. TFC has only had one long-running coach in their entire history, so the odds of Herdman making it that long with TFC aren't great, especially since I can't see him fixing much there if Manning is the one hiring him. If he does well with Canada in 2026, he will have better employment prospects than he does now. Unless MLSE is offering him millions, he's likely to make more money by sticking to his CSA contract for the next 3.5 years.

As such, IMO this is likely to be a bad move for coach & club, with the only real downside to the CSA is if players are so loyal to the coach that they refuse to play for their country, but are they really going to do that with a World Cup on the horizon? I am doubtful.

Of course, if it is a Bob Lenarduzzi-like dual-role situation (club & country), then he probably has nothing to lose by making the move.

[Shway]

10 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I don’t really see it that way.  Herdman is probably making pretty good money (didn’t he just renegotiate a raise not too long ago?).  And in reference to a previous question, there is no way the CSA would be on the hook if it is Herdman that decides to walk away from the contract for another position.  

So there isn’t a financial penalty that would be associated with his exit.  

I don't disagree with what you said...because I've stated pretty much everything you said.
Feel like you quoted the wrong comment.

Is JH in extreme power? Yes, because he decides if he stays or goes and he just renegotiated a raise that would guarantee his pay till 2026. CSA can't afford to "fire" him knowing he would require a severance package.

10 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

We would have to find another coach obviously but I am not nearly as pessimistic as some on here and I think we could do it given the financial room we would have (up to Herdman’s current salary) and the fact that we have a really talented, young squad.  We are guaranteed some competitive games in NL and potentially Copa, we have a guaranteed reserve at WC2026, and the friendly issue will get sorted (even the CSA isn’t going to sabotage our WC by not playing games in the buildup).  

I know that the CSA has some issues right now but so do lots of other federations that manage to attract coaches.  There are definitely candidates who would be willing to sign on.  I just don’t see any justification for this idea that we are screwed if he decides to jump ship.  We have functioned before him and we will function after him.   

Again, I agree that we could find another coach, and there will be lots wanting to throw their hat in the pile considering all the tournaments you mentioned...but the names that some have listed (Ancellotti, Van Gaal, Klinsman) on a shoestring budget aren't even realistic never mind being pessimistic. 

The reality is Herdman is making 700K+ a year? That needs to be cut in half at least. 

JH position of extreme power is that right now he gets to decide his future. The CSA will not sack him.

[Ottawafan]

I just hope De Vos doesn't think he is an option to step in and coach on an interim basis.

[shorty]

4 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

 

IMO Herdman is betting against himself if he wants to make such a move now - there's a good chance he would be neither TFC's coach nor Canada's coach come the 2026 World Cup. TFC has only had one long-running coach in their entire history, so the odds of Herdman making it that long with TFC aren't great

 

I agree that his chances of long term success with TFC aren’t high, but I disagree that he is betting against himself. JH strikes me as the “big challenge” guy. In that sense, TFC is a perfect fit for both of them. They need someone to fix the culture and right the ship, JH wants a new challenge and another feather in his cap for doing so. He’s brought the MNT as far as his skill set and the organizational support will allow so it’s not surprising that he is on the move. I would bet that he also likes the TFC opportunity as a means to help the MNT from another post, in the same way he viewed the MNT as a means to helping the WNT and the CSA as a whole. (He was right in some respects on the first, but overestimated his ability to fix the CSA culture unfortunately, although one could argue the current pain is necessary and we’re still in the bandaid ripped off phase)

Can he actually right the TFC ship, though, is another question. Is the MLSE organization as messed up as the CSA. Who knows?  If it comes off though, I think it could be a positive all around. MNT has outgrown JH and needs a shot in the arm, and a happy revitalized TFC that churns out more MNT players would be great. 
 

Glass half full. 

[Bigandy]

12 hours ago, Free kick said:

 Ask yourselves this question:   of all the coaches that you may have ever had as a player (at all possible levels of the game) are you able to remember or distinguish one from and other for their tactical acumen?   I am sure that everyone's answer is "no" and that you member more the elements of their personality and your interactions with them.   

I could not disagree more. Theres been massive amounts of differences in tactical acumen from coaches ive played under. I've reshaped my view of the game on more than one occasion. Sure, there's plenty of coaches that range from youth, provincial, national and Uni levels that have very limited tactical understandings, but theres also plenty of coaches who simply do not have the resources (mostly time spent together on the pitch) to implement a deeper tactical system.  

It feels awful to compare anything in canada to guardiola but so many players say they never udnerstood the game until they played under him. Thats been my experience (although to a much much lesser degree) with the coaching I have received. 

[Bigandy]

14 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Aside from Corbeanu was there any of these that was in danger of committing elsewhere? 
 

I don’t know how much the coach will realistically affect dual nationals committing unless it’s a celebrity/legendary coach. Players wanna play for good teams and functional organizations. Even if the next coach is Peter Galindo, if he gets results then players will come. 

I get what youre saying and even acknowledged that maybe he just gets the ones he should be getting. 
Ugbo publicly declared for nigeria so that is a won battle. Akinola seemed to be on the fence. Staq took some convincing and has publicly said herdman helped convince him. Im not sure if there was a threat David plays for USA but they likely wouldve tried to sway him. 

However, another point is that herdman put an emphasis on dual recruitment. Guys like spoony, ZMG, Mcgill, koleosho, etc are being identified more regularly and contacted more frequently. I am not saying this is specific to herdman moving forward but my biggest appreciation of the herdman era is the growth of the player pool (even if its not casually connected to herdman). 

[Free kick]

5 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I could not disagree more. Theres been massive amounts of differences in tactical acumen from coaches ive played under. I've reshaped my view of the game on more than one occasion. Sure, there's plenty of coaches that range from youth, provincial, national and Uni levels that have very limited tactical understandings, but theres also plenty of coaches who simply do not have the resources (mostly time spent together on the pitch) to implement a deeper tactical system.  

It feels awful to compare anything in canada to guardiola but so many players say they never udnerstood the game until they played under him. Thats been my experience (although to a much much lesser degree) with the coaching I have received. 

What I was getting at was something i noted while watching the Netflix Documentary on Italy's run at the last Euro's.   I was particularly intrigued watching Roberto Mancini and thinking:   Wow, he is not all that different in his approach than any of the coaches that we have had while we played the games at youth levels, high school or even men's leagues .   It was pretty much a lot of :   "  Go get em boys".  "I have faith in you".  “Lets get it done”.  But i didnt see anything like:  "  when the ball moves here,  you need to be there" .  Or: "  when this guys has the ball you need to do this".  I am sure that there was some of this in background etc etc.  of course there has to be tactics,  but its far from the only thing taht counts

Edited August 22, 2023 by Free kick

[dyslexic nam]

Re the issue of tactical importance, I will say that good tactics won’t win you every game, but I think that poor tactics can most definitely lose you games.   That is why you have to get them correct.  The right tactics won’t let Canada roll over Croatia, but it might prevent them from rolling over us. Get that wrong and, well, you know   

The other tactical issue that people have noted en masse is Herdman's inability to adjust and make in-game substitutions that turn our fortunes around.  The have been instances where we are all watching a game and there has been a universal recognition that something isn’t working - and lo and behold we end up getting punished as a result because the necessary changes weren’t made.  Not to pick on Oso, but there have been games where he was obviously and visibly gassed, with nothing left in the tank, and yet he had stayed on the field as a then-ineffective piece. A good tactician can read the way a game is unfolding and adjust accordingly, and aside from a couple of examples where we have made some impact subs, I simply have not seen this.  If anything, we seem to rely on predetermined formation shifts that looked arbitrary or which have even seemed counterproductive at the time.  

Tactics may not be everything in international soccer, but I think they a fairly important piece of the puzzle and not something that should be overlooked.  
 

[shorty]

Also, a good coach will key on matchups when setting their lineup.  Case in point: Vilsaint vs ONeill was a genius choice that would have resulted in a rout if Vilsaint hadn’t have gone off injured. Now, you won’t come across O’Neills at the higher levels of the international game but my point is that a good coach can assess the greatest avenue for success in the initial setup as well. 

[Bigandy]

18 minutes ago, Free kick said:

What I was getting at was something i noted while watching the Netflix Documentary on Italy's run at the last Euro's.   I was particularly intrigued watching Roberto Mancini and thinking:   Wow, he is not all that different in his approach than any of the coaches that we have had while we played the games at youth levels, high school or even men's leagues .   It was pretty much a lot of :   "  Go get em boys".  "I have faith in you".  Lets get it done.   But i didnt see anything like:  "  when the ball moves here,  you need to be there" .  Or: "  when this guys has the ball you need to do this".  I am sure that there was some of this in background etc etc.  of course there has to be tactics,  but its far from the only thing taht counts

Theres a couple of reasons for the lopsided approach to tactics. 

First is that its a documentary so the RAW RAW go get em boys is more interesting to viewers than when italy does 11 vs 0 to work on shape or sits in a room and watches film. Next, international managers dont have time to implement crazy tactics like a man city does. It takes alot of time so most international managers simplify their tactics to maximize the limited training tiem they have together. JH actually had our boys virtually working on tactics in between international windows. 3rd is that Italy have a fairly defined tactical identity already so its minor tweaks that are required as opposed to reinventing the wheel.  

Is there a motivational side to coaching, of course! However, I would not rely on a netflix documentary for evidence of tactical acumen or tactical knowledge depth.