General Discussion on CMNT

[Scorpion26]

I understand many are mentioning points from any ranking system, but to me playing games for the players is what CSA/Herdman should be setting up and lots of them not just one when two can be played. The ranking will go up and down that's cool, but making it to final of big tourneys will help anyways to improve those rankings which I do think shouldn't be the worry rather the development of CMNT players on this team. Plus I just want to see more games from Canada...

[jpg75]

Confusedcius say: Play less games to get ranking up mean better teams want to play you and get more games.

[BrennanFan]

#HerdmanOut

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Scorpion26 said:

I understand many are mentioning points from any ranking system, but to me playing games for the players is what CSA/Herdman should be setting up and lots of them not just one when two can be played. The ranking will go up and down that's cool, but making it to final of big tourneys will help anyways to improve those rankings which I do think shouldn't be the worry rather the development of CMNT players on this team. Plus I just want to see more games from Canada...

And that’s fine. I was just pointing out that SpecialK’s point about playing more games to improve our ranking is not an accurate part of the argument. And I have previously hypothesized that we could potentially be avoiding friendlies to improve our ranking at a time that is important for the next WCQ draw.

That being said, I like watching the CMNT play, especially when it isn’t a neutral site friendly. So I would like to see more games, but I also don’t think it is the end of the world, especially since this problem is going to be greatly minimized with the nations league starting up soon. Plus we get all this juicy CPL news to keep us busy.

[Guest]

Our ranking is important but not as important as playing matches regularly. Both factors should be considered when scheduling matches and choosing opponents but it would not be good policy to put top priority on achieving the highest possible ranking at the cost of not playing matches.

As an aside, Wales have played the FIFA ranking system like a violin but looking at the 32 teams in the World Cup I do not see them there. Getting your ranking well above your actual ability is great but at some point you are going to have to prove it on the pitch.

Edited May 2, 2018 by dsqpr

[Rheo]

FIFA sanctions against El Salvador based on questionable play against Canada in Cup qualifying in 2016

https://the11.ca/canada-soccer-wont-comment-on-fifas-decision-to-ban-el-salvador-coach-for-his-actions-ahead-of-wc-qualifier/

• On Wednesday, FIFA announced it had slapped coach Ramon Maradiaga with a two-year ban for allowing a “third party” to meet with his players ahead of a World Cup qualifier against Canada. The players reported the meeting to authorities, and claimed a businessman offered them financial incentives to do well against Canada — because if El Salvador could at least the score respectable it would benefit Honduras.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Rheo

[CanadianSoccerFan]

4 hours ago, Rheo said:

FIFA sanctions against El Salvador based on questionable play against Canada in Cup qualifying in 2016

https://the11.ca/canada-soccer-wont-comment-on-fifas-decision-to-ban-el-salvador-coach-for-his-actions-ahead-of-wc-qualifier/

• On Wednesday, FIFA announced it had slapped coach Ramon Maradiaga with a two-year ban for allowing a “third party” to meet with his players ahead of a World Cup qualifier against Canada. The players reported the meeting to authorities, and claimed a businessman offered them financial incentives to do well against Canada — because if El Salvador could at least the score respectable it would benefit Honduras.

Yet the Mexican coach all but laid down for Honduras and fielded a glorified f***ing youth team in a 0-0 draw.  Nothing wrong with that......

[Guest]

6 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Yet the Mexican coach all but laid down for Honduras and fielded a glorified f***ing youth team in a 0-0 draw.  Nothing wrong with that......

The problem lay in the schedule. What actually happened was always a likely scenario before a ball was even kicked. We always get shafted on the schedule and somebody needs to sort it out. Why do Hondurass always get the second match against us at home, when they know exactly what they need to do?

Edited May 3, 2018 by dsqpr

[A Different Perspective]

On 5/3/2018 at 2:37 AM, dsqpr said:

The problem lay in the schedule. What actually happened was always a likely scenario before a ball was even kicked. We always get shafted on the schedule and somebody needs to sort it out. Why do Hondurass always get the second match against us at home, when they know exactly what they need to do?

Agreed - should be like Davis Cup tennis.  Whatever the set up was the previous time, it should be reversed - so Honduras you were away first and home second time with Canada - next time you are home first and away second.  It is an easy fix no matter the "scheduling".

[soccer.shocker]

I think the problem is that we simply haven't been good enough, so we are reduced to obsessing about this sort of stuff instead of having an "anyone, anywhere anytime, any conditions it doesn't matter we are going to find a way to fuck up your team and win the god damn match" mentality and confidence. Hopefully Herdman's approach will move MNT in that direction. Very doable before WCQ (granted if the lads were together more often that would be a big help!). Rant over.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, soccer.shocker said:

I think the problem is that we simply haven't been good enough, so we are reduced to obsessing about this sort of stuff instead of having an "anyone, anywhere anytime, any conditions it doesn't matter we are going to find a way to fuck up your team and win the god damn match" mentality and confidence. Hopefully Herdman's approach will move MNT in that direction. Very doable before WCQ (granted if the lads were together more often that would be a big help!). Rant over.

Not really. In 2018 we played well enough to qualify for the final round. We split our two matches with Honduras and both of us took 4 points from El Salvador. But Mexico rolled over and played dead in their final match to give Honduras the point they needed to beat us out. I mean, who could have guessed that Mexico would have clinched advancement before their final match?

It is extremely naive to think that the schedule does not play a significant role in how things play out in a 4 team group.

Edited May 5, 2018 by dsqpr

[Vince193]

So Haiti are playing a friendly against Argentina soon and we are umm.... yeah. September.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Vince193

[RJB]

On 5/2/2018 at 11:37 PM, dsqpr said:

The problem lay in the schedule. What actually happened was always a likely scenario before a ball was even kicked. We always get shafted on the schedule and somebody needs to sort it out. Why do Hondurass always get the second match against us at home, when they know exactly what they need to do?

I know!  It's frustrating to play at home first because we don't know what to do as a result.  Should we win?  Should we lose? 

This doesn't matter dspqr.  Regardless of the order, we need to do better.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, RJB said:

I know!  It's frustrating to play at home first because we don't know what to do as a result.  Should we win?  Should we lose? 

This doesn't matter dspqr.  Regardless of the order, we need to do better.

I agree that we need to do better but my point is that how we do depends to some degree on the schedule. If you don't believe me, ask Hondurass!

And everybody knows it is an advantage to play the second leg at home, which is why the higher ranked team is always given that advantage: in UEFA World Cup play-offs, for example, or UEFA Champions League knockout stages.

The battleground for World Cup qualification is not just between the white lines and if we do not understand this, as seems to be the case, then it is no wonder we do not qualify! Hondurass seem to understand it all too well!

Edited May 6, 2018 by dsqpr

[RJB]

4 hours ago, dsqpr said:

 

And everybody knows it is an advantage to play the second leg at home, which is why the higher ranked team is always given that advantage: in UEFA World Cup play-offs, for example, or UEFA Champions League knockout stages.

But it isn't the second leg, it's a league format.  Honduras only had an advantage because we failed to do the necessary job against El Salvador and Mexico.  Had we picked up two additional points from those three games vs. them that we failed to win, then this is not important.  It's an excuse now only because it needs to be to complete the woe-is-me narrative.

[jpg75]

Winners win.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, RJB said:

But it isn't the second leg, it's a league format.  Honduras only had an advantage because we failed to do the necessary job against El Salvador and Mexico.  Had we picked up two additional points from those three games vs. them that we failed to win, then this is not important.  It's an excuse now only because it needs to be to complete the woe-is-me narrative.

Woe is me narrative? WTF are you talking about? The reason I raise it is in the hope that we get it right next time!

It was always going to be between us and Hondurass. Mexico are a lot better and El Salvador are not as good. If Hondurass had had to play Mexico when Mexico still needed points then Mexico would have shown up. And that could very well have been the deciding factor in who advanced. If you can't see that then I reallt don't know what else to say.

[Free kick]

On 5/3/2018 at 2:37 AM, dsqpr said:

The problem lay in the schedule. What actually happened was always a likely scenario before a ball was even kicked. We always get shafted on the schedule and somebody needs to sort it out. Why do Hondurass always get the second match against us at home, when they know exactly what they need to do?

I dont agree that we get shafted by the schedule.  In those games we knew very clearly before hand what kind of results canada need to get before that final game in Honduras, and we didnt get those results.  How many time did we repeat here that the 0-0 draw and home versus Honduras put us behind the eightball.  A game that honduras pretty much laid down for us.  

three and four cycles ago we use complain that we would get shafted because we always ended with that final a game at home and because things were already decided by then, that game always turned out to be a meaningless game. 

I agree that geo politics and cultural politics work (in other ways) against canada in this region. But the qualifying process and schedule have definitely not worked against Canada.  We have failed when we had the final game at home and when we didnt. We have failed in WCQ in difficult groups,  medium difficulty groups,  easy groups,  mickey mouse groups.... etc etc.  

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Free kick

[Guest]

18 hours ago, RJB said:

But it isn't the second leg, it's a league format.  Honduras only had an advantage because we failed to do the necessary job against El Salvador and Mexico.  Had we picked up two additional points from those three games vs. them that we failed to win, then this is not important.  It's an excuse now only because it needs to be to complete the woe-is-me narrative.

And Honduras also failed to do the job against El Salvador and Mexico (well, while Mexico still needed points anyway). That is football! You can't expect to win every game and then cry that "we failed to win" when you don't. It isn't realistic. The penultimate round of CONCACAF WCQ usually effectively comes down to a home and away series for us because our group usually has one team that is clearly better and another that is clearly weaker. That is just the way it is. And the entire football world seems to know that playing the second leg at home is an advantage.

The schedule matters. If you do not understand this then so be it!

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Free kick said:

I dont agree that we get shafted by the schedule.  In those games we knew very clearly before hand what kind of results canada need to get before that final game in Honduras, and we didnt get those results.

Of course we did! We always do! Win them all! Except that that isn't realistic!

7 hours ago, Free kick said:

three and four cycles ago we use complain that we would get shafted because we always ended with that final a game at home and because things were already decided by then, that game always turned out to be a meaningless game. 

It is not important to have the final game at home. It IS important to play the SECOND GAME AGAINST YOUR MAIN RIVAL IN THE GROUP AT HOME and to play YOUR FINAL GROUP MATCH AGAINST THE BEST TEAM IN THE GROUP because there is an excellent chance they will have already clinched by then. Is this really hard to understand? Do you really think a match against Mexico when they have already clinched is as hard as one when they need points?

7 hours ago, Free kick said:

I agree that geo politics and cultural politics work (in other ways) against canada in this region. But the qualifying process and schedule have definitely not worked against Canada.  We have failed when we had the final game at home and when we didnt. We have failed in WCQ in difficult groups,  medium difficulty groups,  easy groups,  mickey mouse groups.... etc etc.  

It is certainly true that we have failed, but my point is that the schelule has invariably contributed to that failure. And IT IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER THE FINAL GAME IS AT HOME! SEE ABOVE!!

Edited May 6, 2018 by dsqpr
Phat Phingers.

[Ruffian]

On 06/05/2018 at 1:19 AM, jpg75 said:

Winners win.

Winners go home and f@#! the prom queen!

Edited May 7, 2018 by Ruffian

[Vince193]

2 hours ago, Ruffian said:

Winners go home and f@#! the prom queen!

I miss the Best Soccer Show.

[RJB]

21 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Of course we did! We always do! Win them all! Except that that isn't realistic!

It is not important to have the final game at home. It IS important to play the SECOND GAME AGAINST YOUR MAIN RIVAL IN THE GROUP AT HOME and to play YOUR FINAL GROUP MATCH AGAINST THE BEST TEAM IN THE GROUP because there is an excellent chance they will have already clinched by then. Is this really hard to understand? Do you really think a match against Mexico when they have already clinched is as hard as one when they need points?

 

So you are saying that our chances would have improved significantly if our final two games were Honduras at home, and then Mexico(away I presume, since no one had two home games).

This really only seems to have 'always' happened to us this last round.  In 2014 qualifying, the group was very much up for grabs on that final day, and everyone needed a result.  Plus, it should be stated that this group did not have one of the big three, and so doesn't fit into what you have previously stated is one "clearly better" team.  So it's tough to say we got screwed, other than having to play away.  But no one was able to lay down, or play a b squad, etc. 

2010 we were awful

2006 we were awful

2002 we were awful

I mean, I ultimately get your point that the schedule could be more to our advantage.  But in previous World Cup cycles, we've had all the combinations, and the fact is that we just haven't been good enough.

Edited May 7, 2018 by RJB

[Kent]

Sure, you could design the perfect scenario (the teams drawn into the pool, and then the schedule) where we might be able to advance to the final round of qualifying. But if you need to do that, you aren’t good enough.

[dyslexic nam]

Yeah, I am probably naive about it, but I never blame the schedule or the sequencing of home and away matches.  At the risk of grossly  oversimplifying, we have written our own destiny by failing to win entirely winnable games each and every cycle.  Maybe CONCACAF could have given us an easier path, but in each instance there have been moments of utter shit that have torpedoed our chances.   And those moments didn't happen in a boardroom when the schedule was being drawn up.