General Discussion on CMNT

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am already sick of this issue so planning to give it a break for a bit (we will see…) - but this does raise the issue of just how many people get to levy penalties for the same transgression.  So far we have had some form of sanction issued by the Association, the Canadian Olympic Committee, FIFA, and now the Federal Government.    Seems like penance has been paid, no?   

Broad jurisdiction to chastise and punish, slim jurisdiction to praise and reward. 

Why don't they just come out and remind the minister they're woefully underfunded, so their dumbass decision, based on no hearing ordie process, barely affects the CSA?

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

While I understand wanting to defend our sweethearts (CANMNT & CANWNT) and wanting to downplay the situation.  I feel we're going a bit far in enabling and forgiving our drug-addicted child.  I'll try to put it in a way most can understand and probably connect with.  

Lets say you're Jamaica or Trinidad and playing to qualify for Copa and will be playing Canada.  You're trying to field your best team to counter Canada's strengths.  Do you think knowing which lineup we've been practicing all week helps you in any way?

Larin / David

Davies / Stache / Osorio / Kone / Tajon

Miller / Vitoria / Johnston

Or

Larin

Millar / David / Tajon

Stache / Kone 

Davies / Cornelius / Bombito / Johnston 

Claiming there is little to no advantage to be gained with the drones is simply untrue.

Again, what you see in training may not correlate to what you see on game day.

Furthermore, any coach could just watch previous matches to predict how the opponent will line up.

I don't buy your argument that watching training guarantees you an advantage.

Personally, I think Herdman and Co. liked the arial vantage point that drones provided. That's why he also liked watching the first half from the press box. I think he primarily used these to evaluate our own trainings (remember the hype vids of our training shot via drone?), but then somewhere along the line started using them to view the opponent's training as well. 

In both cases, I just think he valued the arial views from which to view opponents, and primarily his own team. I bet if it were feasible he would have recorded all of our games, and the games of our opponents, in drone footage.

[Sal333]

8 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am already sick of this issue so planning to give it a break for a bit (we will see…) - but this does raise the issue of just how many people get to levy penalties for the same transgression.  So far we have had some form of sanction issued by the Association, the Canadian Olympic Committee, FIFA, and now the Federal Government.    Seems like penance has been paid, no?   

What are you talking about? I didn't get my pound of flesh.

Joking aside, they just beat the French. Can you imagine what a big fuck you it would be if they made it out of the group and medaled?

[Club Linesman]

Best FU. I am rethinking my immediate reaction which was immature.  Win all 3 games. Get into the quarters and win out. 
Then on the podium drop your pants and moon the FIFA and IOC members in attendance.  

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

What are you talking about? I didn't get my pound of flesh.

Joking aside, they just beat the French. Can you imagine what a big fuck you it would be if they made it out of the group and medaled?

Yeah - and to be honest I wouldn’t be shocked. They seem fired up as hell.  And we all now that this sort of galvanizing factor can be a huge motivator.  

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, Club Linesman said:

Best FU. I am rethinking my immediate reaction which was immature.  Win all 3 games. Get into the quarters and win out. 
Then on the podium drop your pants and moon the FIFA and IOC members in attendance.  

I think you have just deferred your reaction rather than rethinking it.  

[Mattd97]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

Again, what you see in training may not correlate to what you see on game day.

Furthermore, any coach could just watch previous matches to predict how the opponent will line up.

I don't buy your argument that watching training guarantees you an advantage.

Personally, I think Herdman and Co. liked the arial vantage point that drones provided. That's why he also liked watching the first half from the press box. I think he primarily used these to evaluate our own trainings (remember the hype vids of our training shot via drone?), but then somewhere along the line started using them to view the opponent's training as well. 

In both cases, I just think he valued the arial views from which to view opponents, and primarily his own team. I bet if it were feasible he would have recorded all of our games, and the games of our opponents, in drone footage.

How do ppl think we practice anyways, okay guys only our starting 11 takes the field and we're going to pretend this is a real game and everyone try this brand new set piece the day before we start a tournament for the first time

[Sal333]

16 minutes ago, Club Linesman said:

Best FU. I am rethinking my immediate reaction which was immature.  Win all 3 games. Get into the quarters and win out. 
Then on the podium drop your pants and moon the FIFA and IOC members in attendance.  

And not just FIFA and the IOC but the Canadian gover't and CSA (and yes I include Kevin Blue). According to the BS that's being reported, the players had nothing to do with the spying yet they have been deducted 6 points. I was all for the heavy sanctions, banning and firing and whatever punishment needed to be handed out to the people responsible but not the players. That's like you're in the passenger seat and your dad is driving recklessly. The cops stop him, give him a ticket and place you in jail and when you come out your mother decides to cut your allowance. CSA and the Canadian gover't should have stuck up for the players.

Edited July 28 by Sal333

[SpursFlu]

When the ladies scored today their celebration should have been them pretending to fly a drone

[gigi riva]

On 7/27/2024 at 6:48 PM, gigi riva said:

Post Media . What do you expect . Im surprsed they have not blamed Trudeau yet

Or the Carbon tax 

[InglewoodJack]

23 minutes ago, gigi riva said:

Or the Carbon tax 

Axe the (fifa 6 point) tax 

[costarg]

8 hours ago, Obinna said:

Furthermore, any coach could just watch previous matches to predict how the opponent will line up.

I don't buy your argument that watching training guarantees you an advantage.

We follow every single match, tweet and burp, yet we had no idea where Davies would play or in what shape.  How can one expect Paraguay to know.  

A team doesn't spend the week before practicing with a back 3 to lineup with a back 4 on game day.  

I agree Bev joined the select list of top 3 stupidist people to ever work with CSA by flying a drone at the Olympics in France, but to say there is no advantage in doing so is a huge stretch.  We know several coaches and teams do and/or have done it, you saying it's all pointless and for naught?

Edited July 29 by costarg

[jonovision]

11 minutes ago, costarg said:

We follow every single match, tweet and burp, yet we had no idea where Davies would play or in what shape.  How can one expect Paraguay to know.  

A team doesn't spend the week before practicing with a back 3 to lineup with a back 4 on game day.  

I agree Bev joined the select list of top 3 stupidist people to ever work with CSA by flying a drone at the Olympics in France, but to say there is no advantage in doing so is a huge stretch.  We know several coaches and teams do and/or have done it, you saying it's all pointless and for naught?

There is the possibility of a small marginal benefit from doing so, just like a lot of the things teams do, like nonsense inspirational PowerPoints, carrying around a sword, foam rolling, etc.. There is also the opportunity cost of using significant time and resources that might better be deployed elsewhere.

It was stupid to do it, of course. It is also stupid to say that spying is one of the main reasons the relative success of Canada's men and women recently. Canada could have had the full team sit in on the Argentina training sessions at Copa and still lost 8 or 9 times out of 10.

[Sal333]

26 minutes ago, costarg said:

We follow every single match, tweet and burp, yet we had no idea where Davies would play or in what shape.  How can one expect Paraguay to know.  

A team doesn't spend the week before practicing with a back 3 to lineup with a back 4 on game day.  

I agree Bev joined the select list of top 3 stupidist people to ever work with CSA by flying a drone at the Olympics in France, but to say there is no advantage in doing so is a huge stretch.  We know several coaches and teams do and/or have done it, you saying it's all pointless and for naught?

Craig Forrest, Amy Walsh and Jimmy Brennan all said on the Footy Prime show that there's little or no advantage that you can't get by watching game tape . Jimmy Brennan came out and flatly said it was a stupid thing to do because there was no advantage gained. I don't want to disparage the soccer IQ of yourself or others on this board but I will listen to them.  They played the game at a high level.

Edited July 29 by Sal333

[gigi riva]

39 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Axe the (fifa 6 point) tax 

Hahahaha LOL

[gigi riva]

12 minutes ago, jonovision said:

There is the possibility of a small marginal benefit from doing so, just like a lot of the things teams do, like nonsense inspirational PowerPoints, carrying around a sword, foam rolling, etc.. There is also the opportunity cost of using significant time and resources that might better be deployed elsewhere.

It was stupid to do it, of course. It is also stupid to say that spying is one of the main reasons the relative success of Canada's men and women recently. Canada could have had the full team sit in on the Argentina training sessions at Copa and still lost 8 or 9 times out of 10.

When I heard that statement especilly from the Mainstream media here in Canada  about the spying was the main reason why it got us some success it really infuriated me 

[InglewoodJack]

27 minutes ago, costarg said:

We follow every single match, tweet and burp, yet we had no idea where Davies would play or in what shape.  How can one expect Paraguay to know.  

A team doesn't spend the week before practicing with a back 3 to lineup with a back 4 on game day.  

I agree Bev joined the select list of top 3 stupidist people to ever work with CSA by flying a drone at the Olympics in France, but to say there is no advantage in doing so is a huge stretch.  We know several coaches and teams do and/or have done it, you saying it's all pointless and for naught?

We can argue that we gained intel on the opponent from droning their practices, I think it’s harder to argue that information is useful in any meaningful way. Davies is probably more positionally flexible than like 80% of players we face, and he’s either playing LB or LM which I don’t think knowing ahead of time gives you much of an advantage. These coaches know everything about every player and team they face, certainly at this level. 
 

As others mentioned, it’s not like these practice sessions have our opponents rolling out their 11 player formation and executing their 90 minute game plan. Hell, our coaches have no way of knowing *what* they’re filming- probably a good chance they tossed that drone up and it captured some small group sessions which is what most practices are anyways. Doubt you can even gain much info on how the opponent does their PKs from a drone 150 feet above the pitch, and that’s probably the one practice session you can learn anything useful from. 
 

Agree Priestman et al. are extremely dumb in trying this at all, knowing that you can’t fly drones in Paris. Everyone does this because it’s the norm and if someone is doing something you’re not, maybe you miss out on that one piece of crucial info, but it’s extremely unlikely this information has led to any results for us.

[gigi riva]

2 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

When the ladies scored today their celebration should have been them pretending to fly a drone

Vanessa Giles with her post game comments  . Reminded me of Phil Esposito back in 1972. Screw the culprits?/ coaching staff, who ruined many years of hard work by others, F ck the media here in Canada for being such doushbags  1988 Ben Johnson all over again.  ya its okay to report on it as you should but going  TMZ  was ridiculous , and Fck the Pierrie Pollieve wanabe whiners  who were really ripping on Canadian Soccer, Bunch of F- cking Puck Heads . who proabaley know f all about both Hockey and Soccer

[Strait Red]

14 minutes ago, gigi riva said:

Vanessa Giles with her post game comments  . Reminded me of Phil Esposito back in 1972. Screw the culprits?/ coaching staff, who ruined many years of hard work by others, F ck the media here in Canada for being such doushbags  1988 Ben Johnson all over again.  ya its okay to report on it as you should but going  TMZ  was ridiculous , and Fck the Pierrie Pollieve wanabe whiners  who were really ripping on Canadian Soccer, Bunch of F- cking Puck Heads . who proabaley know f all about both Hockey and Soccer

I’m glad I’m not the only old guy in here who had flashbacks to Esposito in Vancouver in ‘72.

[jonovision]

1 minute ago, Strait Red said:

I’m glad I’m not the only old guy in here who had flashbacks to Esposito in Vancouver in ‘72.

Ah yes, the 72 Summit Series, where Canada prevailed thanks in no small part to a much more egregious form of cheating (slashing Kharlamov's ankle to bits).

[SpursFlu]

47 minutes ago, gigi riva said:

Vanessa Giles with her post game comments  . Reminded me of Phil Esposito back in 1972. Screw the culprits?/ coaching staff, who ruined many years of hard work by others, F ck the media here in Canada for being such doushbags  1988 Ben Johnson all over again.  ya its okay to report on it as you should but going  TMZ  was ridiculous , and Fck the Pierrie Pollieve wanabe whiners  who were really ripping on Canadian Soccer, Bunch of F- cking Puck Heads . who proabaley know f all about both Hockey and Soccer

I love Pierre Poilievre 

[red card]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

There is the possibility of a small marginal benefit from doing so, just like a lot of the things teams do, like nonsense inspirational PowerPoints, carrying around a sword, foam rolling, etc.. There is also the opportunity cost of using significant time and resources that might better be deployed elsewhere.

It was stupid to do it, of course. It is also stupid to say that spying is one of the main reasons the relative success of Canada's men and women recently. Canada could have had the full team sit in on the Argentina training sessions at Copa and still lost 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Bielsa’s explanation for spying was how it “allows me to keep my anxiety low”.

It’s not about the actual information they might have got from their drone, more the knowledge that its use means they have all bases covered, or at least they can tell themselves that they have all bases covered. They are satisfied they have done everything they possibly can — and more — to get ready for a game.

ESPN article about USSF knowing Canada was spying quoted USSF official saying: "Being able to see those sessions doesn't give you everything. But it can absolutely give you a lot."

Teams will frequently go over how they plan to press their opponent or what side they will try to shade possession toward. There are also run-throughs of free kick setups and rehearsals of any trick plays that might be called, as well practicing for penalty kicks. The starting lineup is also visible, which can be useful for an opponent in situations when a player might be injured or a question might exist over what player a team might use in a certain position.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

We follow every single match, tweet and burp, yet we had no idea where Davies would play or in what shape.  How can one expect Paraguay to know.  

A team doesn't spend the week before practicing with a back 3 to lineup with a back 4 on game day.  

I agree Bev joined the select list of top 3 stupidist people to ever work with CSA by flying a drone at the Olympics in France, but to say there is no advantage in doing so is a huge stretch.  We know several coaches and teams do and/or have done it, you saying it's all pointless and for naught?

I am not saying there is absolutely nothing to be gained by watching your opponent train. That's a ridiculous suggestion. Obviously it can be valuable because otherwise you wouldn't attempt it.

What was the value for someone like Herdman?

Knowing his reputation for being detailed obsessed, and knowning his preference for arial views of the soccer pitch, I imagine was interested in the granular details of whatever Honduras were focused on during their shadow play, not something so high level as a formation, as that could be determined by any observer of past matches.

For example, maybe they worked on the line of engagement whilst in a defensive shape. That (and all shadow play) would be better observed from the sky than from the ground.

Assuming the other team wasn't doing the same thing, this intelligence would give us an advantage, in theory. 

Now my turn to ask you a question:

Do you (or anyone) know what the official stance is of CONCACAF and FIFA when it comes to watching the closed-door portions of training for the purpose of gaining a technical advantage on an opponent? Is there a clear and defined rule and penalty for that? Or is this just merely considered ungentlemanly, with no formally written rule and punishment attached?

Depending on your answer, we may have gotten away with flat-out cheating, or we may have just went above and beyond in our due dilligance to scout the opponent, in a sneaky way of course. 

[GasPed]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Do you (or anyone) know what the official stance is of CONCACAF and FIFA when it comes to watching the closed-door portions of training for the purpose of gaining a technical advantage on an opponent? Is there a clear and defined rule and penalty for that? Or is this just merely considered ungentlemanly, with no formally written rule and punishment attached?

Depending on your answer, we may have gotten away with flat-out cheating, or we may have just went above and beyond in our due dilligance to scout the opponent, in a sneaky way of course. 

I think it's fair to say that no one knew what the official stance was before this incident and now we all know.  That said, I think there were enough precursor signs (e.g. Bielsa at Leeds) before this incident to know that the stance was probably not going to be "Who cares - spying on closed door sessions is a legit way to gather information".  But yeah, someone has to be the first to get caught to know what the punishment is.

[GasPed]

3 hours ago, gigi riva said:

Vanessa Giles with her post game comments  . Reminded me of Phil Esposito back in 1972. Screw the culprits?/ coaching staff, who ruined many years of hard work by others, F ck the media here in Canada for being such doushbags  1988 Ben Johnson all over again.  ya its okay to report on it as you should but going  TMZ  was ridiculous , and Fck the Pierrie Pollieve wanabe whiners  who were really ripping on Canadian Soccer, Bunch of F- cking Puck Heads . who proabaley know f all about both Hockey and Soccer

Could you please explain the reference to Pierre Poilievre?  Did he actually say something about the incident/team?