General Discussion on CMNT

[costarg]

15 hours ago, Obinna said:

To be honest I debated taking his name out and putting Fraser's name there. Not because I think Fraser is a better player at the moment, but because Oso is the one player who seems like he needs a break, or a reset, whatever you want to call it. 

But ultimately I left his name in there because I think for such a roster he would get called by Canada Soccer, because he always seems to. That's it really. In no way was me including him defending his play. It was about what I think the CSA would do for a January camp, if we even have one. 

I can agree that they might, probably call him.  I just feel there is absolutely nothing in his game that shows he deserves to be there at the moment.  It's heartbreaking.  Like you say, I feel he needs a reset or a break.  Perhaps the drama and fire at TFC is affecting him as well, can't be easy seeing a team you've been so loyal to go through this.

[Obinna]

16 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

We would absolutely hang with any Americas domestic squad minus Brazil or Argentina. Grenada? Our u22 team would destroy them as they did years back. Remember we’re talking domestic teams so they wouldn’t have players from England. 
 

Our squad would be a MLS level squad. Not many countries are able to put out a domestic squad at that level in North/South America. 

Well, not Mexico 😁

...and probably not Colombia. I guess the rest are debatable to varying degrees. Oh and the USA would beat us very easily with the kind of squad @VinceA proposed. With the changes I made though we could go toe-to-toe. That's more or less the Gold Cup squad.

And btw I meant the full Granada selection. I think we could beat them while giving players like Nimick, Franklin, Thompson, and JMR their debuts, but no I don't think we destroy them with a bunch of young guys that have no familiarity or chemistry. They drew Suriname recently in Nations League and yes they lost to Honduras 4-0 away, but how would our hypothetical selection do away to a Honduran domestic side?

It probably would be a good test considering most of their team is already domestic to begin with, but we probably lose I think. And I guess that would be fine because it would be a friendly.

[Borjans Sweatpants]

Apologies if this is a stupid thought, or there are things I'm not thinking of but wanted to hear opinions (also sorry if this discussion has happened elsewhere, tried to look but didnt see it, and maybe this isnt the forum to discuss but alas):

Is there a world where MLS, CPL and NASL (USL? Sorry I dont know the specifics of the leagues / their levels) 'merge' to form a relegation type structure similar to major European leagues? MLS as the first division, and then some sort of combination of CPL/NASL/USL forming the second, third etc.

I understand European leagues are typically solely one country, but we obviously have Canadian teams in MLS already. I guess the main issues would largely be around funding right? Hopefully that increases overtime but at this point nowhere near enough. Anything else I'm missing?

Seems like a cool pipe dream that would be in line with major leagues and push it to become more competitive. But again, I'm probably not thinking of everything.

[Ruud]

32 minutes ago, Borjans Sweatpants said:

Apologies if this is a stupid thought, or there are things I'm not thinking of but wanted to hear opinions (also sorry if this discussion has happened elsewhere, tried to look but didnt see it, and maybe this isnt the forum to discuss but alas):

Is there a world where MLS, CPL and NASL (USL? Sorry I dont know the specifics of the leagues / their levels) 'merge' to form a relegation type structure similar to major European leagues? MLS as the first division, and then some sort of combination of CPL/NASL/USL forming the second, third etc.

I understand European leagues are typically solely one country, but we obviously have Canadian teams in MLS already. I guess the main issues would largely be around funding right? Hopefully that increases overtime but at this point nowhere near enough. Anything else I'm missing?

Seems like a cool pipe dream that would be in line with major leagues and push it to become more competitive. But again, I'm probably not thinking of everything.

Not likely in a franchise system since team owners in MLS paid 500 million to enjoy MLS tv deals, labor contracts etc.  

what may be likely is a nations league cup which could expand like the US cup and voyageurs cup, single knock out style 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Borjans Sweatpants said:

Apologies if this is a stupid thought, or there are things I'm not thinking of but wanted to hear opinions (also sorry if this discussion has happened elsewhere, tried to look but didnt see it, and maybe this isnt the forum to discuss but alas):

Is there a world where MLS, CPL and NASL (USL? Sorry I dont know the specifics of the leagues / their levels) 'merge' to form a relegation type structure similar to major European leagues? MLS as the first division, and then some sort of combination of CPL/NASL/USL forming the second, third etc.

I understand European leagues are typically solely one country, but we obviously have Canadian teams in MLS already. I guess the main issues would largely be around funding right? Hopefully that increases overtime but at this point nowhere near enough. Anything else I'm missing?

Seems like a cool pipe dream that would be in line with major leagues and push it to become more competitive. But again, I'm probably not thinking of everything.

Dont apologize.  Its a really cool thought. 

The canadian landscape seems more viable (from a rights/ownership perspective). 

Pretty soon we will have league 1s across the provinces. 

In alberta we currently have pro and relegation in mens league up to Major league. The major league could feed into league 1. All the league 1 winners could do a tournament for promotion into CPL. 

Logistically it shouldnt be hard for teams to promote and relegate into League 1.  If a team cannot handle that commitment, then they dont apply for promotion and stay in premier calgary or whatever league they are in. 

The biggest jump would be from league 1 into CPL.  Imagine foothills wins league 1 and now we have basically two foothills/calgary teams in the CPL but nothing in halifax.  

Perhaps the CPL needs more teams so that there is geographical stability. Maybe promotion and relegation is tied to your province/region.  

Interesting thoughts. 

[InglewoodJack]

Only way pro/rel would work, and this is ignoring the fact that owners who spend $500M to buy a team don’t want to risk dropping down a league, is if the three Canadian teams accept being part of the US pyramid and risk playing in USL if they get relegated. MLS isn’t risking a scenario where a CPL team takes the spot of an American MLS team, and if you have the Canadian MLS teams compete with CPL for pro/rel, it’ll be seen as an unfair advantage. 
 

I think the CPL would be doing a tremendous service to North American soccer if they became the first league to do pro/rel with League1. The USL will eventually do it, but giving foreign players an option to play in a European-style league in North America would be really attractive. 

[Obinna]

Maybe league 1 pro/rel is more realistic with a CPL2, which in itself is a pipe dream. Building that division out first and then having pro/rel with CPL would be a better first step. CPL2 could be regionalized to cut down on travel. That would financially help the club promoting from league 1 AND the club relegating from CPL. Maybe FC Edmonton doesn't fold if they simply get relegated to the CPL2 western division, where their travel is drastically reduced to just Western Canada.

The club expenses come down and the team starts winning and the fans come back (everyone likes a winner) and you bounce back the following year with some rejuvenation and vigor and hope.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Obinna

[narduch]

Your are more likely to see Euro leagues get rid of Promotion/Relegation than see it implemented here.

Netherlands doesn't have relegation from its 2nd tier by the way.

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, narduch said:

Your are more likely to see Euro leagues get rid of Promotion/Relegation than see it implemented here.

Netherlands doesn't have relegation from its 2nd tier by the way.

Isn't it the same in Belgium? I wonder what's behind that trend?

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Isn't it the same in Belgium? I wonder what's behind that trend?

It probably has to do with how small those countries are.

I think even Scotland didn't have relegation past their 4th tier for awhile too.

[Aird25]

I don’t think this is the right thread for this discussion 

[InglewoodJack]

Belgium still relegates to the third division but the Netherlands suspended relegation to the third div except for academy teams. If I remember correctly, the issue is that a lot of amateur teams in those countries reject promotion because the increase in budget to become a fully professional team just doesn’t make sense for them. Those countries are unique in the sense that they’re very small and have a massive disparity between the talent of professional clubs and the semi pro and they can’t build a big enough pyramid to account for that like you would in the top 5 leagues. I don’t think that’ll be a trend in Europe, and as for the CPL, my guess is there’s a smaller gap between the best League1 teams and the worst CPL teams, both in quality and operating expenses. 

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Belgium still relegates to the third division but the Netherlands suspended relegation to the third div except for academy teams. If I remember correctly, the issue is that a lot of amateur teams in those countries reject promotion because the increase in budget to become a fully professional team just doesn’t make sense for them. Those countries are unique in the sense that they’re very small and have a massive disparity between the talent of professional clubs and the semi pro and they can’t build a big enough pyramid to account for that like you would in the top 5 leagues. I don’t think that’ll be a trend in Europe, and as for the CPL, my guess is there’s a smaller gap between the best League1 teams and the worst CPL teams, both in quality and operating expenses. 

I agree with almost everything except operating costs. The CPL has games across canada and salaries of all staff and players. League 1 alberta has most games in the same city or a 3 hour drive to edmonton/calgary.  

[InglewoodJack]

I also don't think that Europe is getting rid of pro/rel before we get it. I know someone who's involved in the NBA on a front office level, and there's very basic talks being had about what pro/rel in basketball would look like. It's looking like they're going to eventually split off the NBA into a premier division and then a second tier- something like the top 20 teams in 1 league, and bottom 10 with some expansion in the second. Might not happen for a decade, but it's a conversation being had at high levels from what I heard. 

With the growth in player salaries, it makes less and less sense to force through league parity by having clubs trade away their best players to fit under a salary cap. It's going to be the same deal in MLS- Miami wants to add Griezman, they can definitely afford him, and I guess in their situation MLS will find a way to make it happen under roster rules, but what if LA, New York, that new team in San Diego, so on, they all want to add 4 or 5 imported superstars? What if a rich owner says fuck it and wants an MLS club to win the club world cup, but can't spend to build that roster? Eventually, teams with budget and the domestic market to justify the spend will be capped in their growth because the league placed arbitrary rules on how much they can spend simply to prop up small market teams that have zero interest in becoming world class soccer clubs.

In the USL you have a team like Indy 11 spending a billion dollars on a new stadium development and other top teams really spending and also earning from big transfers. There's money to be made in that league, and you take a team like Colorado that has zero interest in being a good team and you offer them the opportunity to play in a lower league and still make money? Not a bad deal. They're never going to be sold for a billion dollars like some of those insane MLS franchise valuations.

10 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I agree with almost everything except operating costs. The CPL has games across canada and salaries of all staff and players. League 1 alberta has most games in the same city or a 3 hour drive to edmonton/calgary.  

That I honestly don't know about. I'm thinking more of teams like TSS Rovers, Vaughan Azzuri, etc., who would be promotion candidates with a lot of smaller teams never sniffing a chance at the CPL. Though I agree even at that level cross-country travel is tough. If CS Outremont got promoted and then had to go and play Pacific, Vancouver FC, Valour, Cavalry in a single year, that would be really difficult I think.

[Obinna]

55 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Belgium still relegates to the third division but the Netherlands suspended relegation to the third div except for academy teams. If I remember correctly, the issue is that a lot of amateur teams in those countries reject promotion because the increase in budget to become a fully professional team just doesn’t make sense for them. Those countries are unique in the sense that they’re very small and have a massive disparity between the talent of professional clubs and the semi pro and they can’t build a big enough pyramid to account for that like you would in the top 5 leagues. I don’t think that’ll be a trend in Europe, and as for the CPL, my guess is there’s a smaller gap between the best League1 teams and the worst CPL teams, both in quality and operating expenses. 

Sounds exactly like the same issue we'd face with pro/rel. It probably doesn't make sense for the vast majority of semi-pro League 1 clubs to turn fully pro and play in the CPL. However, CPL2 could be a smaller step that would/could make sense.

A hypothetical CPL2 could have a system where they can field some amateur players to cut costs if they choose. Again, that would help a relegated CPL club re-group financially, while not forcing a promoting League 1 club to go fully pro. 

League 1 is semi-pro in name but my sense that it is more amateur than pro. Maybe CPL2 could be the reverse, semi-pro but more pro than amateur.

In time CPL2 could be an interesting division that ambitious League 1 clubs yo-yo in and out, seeking to be the best version of themselves without necessarily seeking CPL promotion in a serious way. Meanwhile, there'd always be at least 1 serious CPL team at that level, relegated and re-grouping, correcting some mistakes and aiming to go back up with a better foundation.

FC Edmonton, York United and (maybe) Valour are clubs that could use that lifeline instead of being faced with dissolving all together.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Obinna

[InglewoodJack]

20 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Sounds exactly like the same issue we'd face with pro/rel. It probably doesn't make sense for the vast majority of semi-pro League 1 clubs to turn fully pro and play in the CPL. However, CPL2 could be a smaller step that would/could make sense.

A hypothetical CPL2 could have a system where they can field some amateur players to cut costs if they choose. Again, that would help a relegated CPL club re-group financially, while not forcing a promoting League 1 club to go fully pro. 

League 1 is semi-pro in name but my sense that it is more amateur than pro. Maybe CPL2 could be the reverse, semi-pro but more pro than amateur.

In time CPL2 could be an interesting division that ambitious League 1 clubs yo-yo in and out, seeking to be the best version of themselves without necessarily seeking CPL promotion in a serious way. Meanwhile, there'd always be at least 1 serious CPL team at that level, relegated and re-grouping, correcting some mistakes and aiming to go back up with a better foundation.

FC Edmonton, York United and (maybe) Valour are clubs that could use that lifeline instead of being faced with dissolving all together.

Yeah, I think the way to go for pro/rel is to get the CPL to around 15-20 teams via expansion and promoting top League 1 teams, and then splitting off the best 10 into a premier league, and the rest into a 6-8 team 2nd tier with the goal of expanding as League 1 teams become financially viable. Agree that there needs to be some space for the teams you mention and future teams that financially collapse to go play soccer at a competitive level while being able to take a step back and realign their budget. York is teetering on financial collapse, and they sold arguably one of CPL's best players in Abzi- they only got 50k out of it, but there's a world where they get relegated, and can make low six figures by shedding a lot of their good players and focusing on bringing in young domestic talent and still competing for a promotion down the line.

I think we're at least a decade away from that, but it's an interesting thought.

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Yeah, I think the way to go for pro/rel is to get the CPL to around 15-20 teams via expansion and promoting top League 1 teams, and then splitting off the best 10 into a premier league, and the rest into a 6-8 team 2nd tier with the goal of expanding as League 1 teams become financially viable. Agree that there needs to be some space for the teams you mention and future teams that financially collapse to go play soccer at a competitive level while being able to take a step back and realign their budget. York is teetering on financial collapse, and they sold arguably one of CPL's best players in Abzi- they only got 50k out of it, but there's a world where they get relegated, and can make low six figures by shedding a lot of their good players and focusing on bringing in young domestic talent and still competing for a promotion down the line.

I think we're at least a decade away from that, but it's an interesting thought.

Yeah for sure. I was gonna say that any pro/rel would have to be after the era of expansion was complete. 10 CPL teams with 6-8 CPL2 teams feels right, but maybe it doesn't have to be dropping the bottom 6-8 teams all at once. Maybe we could expand to 10 and have the 11th expansion team first go to a newly formed CPL2, rounded out by 6-8 applicants 6-8 from League 1. The challenge there however could be finding so many clubs all ready at once to leave the League 1 structure. Not sure if that's as problematic as telling 6-8 CPL teams to prepare to go down all at once. I see such a thing being chaotic and possibly causing more harm than good.

Alternatively, we could close out CPL expansion at 10 and have ongoing expansion into CPL2 until we fill out that division, having expansion coming from a combination of newly created clubs that would otherwise expand directly into CPL and League 1 clubs who have CPL aspirations (Simcoe come to mind). Either way it would be tricky to pull off I think, but fun to think about.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Obinna

[brianjc]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

If CS Outremont got promoted and then had to go and play Pacific, Vancouver FC, Valour, Cavalry in a single year, that would be really difficult I think.

and that is the crux,travelling would be costly for smaller teams like CS Outremont, TSS Rovers, Sigma,Simcoe,etc

 

[red card]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I also don't think that Europe is getting rid of pro/rel before we get it. I know someone who's involved in the NBA on a front office level, and there's very basic talks being had about what pro/rel in basketball would look like. It's looking like they're going to eventually split off the NBA into a premier division and then a second tier- something like the top 20 teams in 1 league, and bottom 10 with some expansion in the second. Might not happen for a decade, but it's a conversation being had at high levels from what I heard. 

With the growth in player salaries, it makes less and less sense to force through league parity by having clubs trade away their best players to fit under a salary cap. It's going to be the same deal in MLS- Miami wants to add Griezman, they can definitely afford him, and I guess in their situation MLS will find a way to make it happen under roster rules, but what if LA, New York, that new team in San Diego, so on, they all want to add 4 or 5 imported superstars? What if a rich owner says fuck it and wants an MLS club to win the club world cup, but can't spend to build that roster? Eventually, teams with budget and the domestic market to justify the spend will be capped in their growth because the league placed arbitrary rules on how much they can spend simply to prop up small market teams that have zero interest in becoming world class soccer clubs.

In the USL you have a team like Indy 11 spending a billion dollars on a new stadium development and other top teams really spending and also earning from big transfers. There's money to be made in that league, and you take a team like Colorado that has zero interest in being a good team and you offer them the opportunity to play in a lower league and still make money? Not a bad deal. They're never going to be sold for a billion dollars like some of those insane MLS franchise valuations.

That I honestly don't know about. I'm thinking more of teams like TSS Rovers, Vaughan Azzuri, etc., who would be promotion candidates with a lot of smaller teams never sniffing a chance at the CPL. Though I agree even at that level cross-country travel is tough. If CS Outremont got promoted and then had to go and play Pacific, Vancouver FC, Valour, Cavalry in a single year, that would be really difficult I think.

Pro/rel is also a hot topic in US college football. With so many teams moving conferences and certain conferences on their deathbed, the end game envisioned is one conference with all the power conference teams. But given the large number of teams, pro/rel would be the way to sort them out by wins/losses and by revenue ambition.

There is an actual proposal for teams in the lower level conferences as an alternative to eating at the kids table. Boise State has tabled a proposal for a three-tiered alliance of 24 football teams in Pacific, Mountain, and Central time zones with pro/rel. 

The thinking behind it is now is the time to think differently and consider what the next generation will wish we had done, rather than putting a bandage on yesterday’s problem.

https://frontofficesports.com/first-proposal-for-relegation-in-college-football/

Edited September 22, 2023 by red card

[Shway]

The October squad list should be interesting considering a lot of vets aren't in form (Adekugbe, Osorio, Vitoria, Hoilett). And a lot of guys who haven't been called deserve a call like Choiniere, Raposo, Corbeanu.

...I want to think Biello will mix things up. 

 

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Shway said:

The October squad list should be interesting considering a lot of vets aren't in form (Adekugbe, Osorio, Vitoria, Hoilett). And a lot of guys who haven't been called deserve a call like Choiniere, Raposo, Corbeanu.

...I want to think Biello will mix things up. 

 

Considering how wins are going to be looked at favourably when it comes to removing the interim tag, maybe now is when he calls players in form over Legacy picks who aren't in form. Choniere would be top of the list, possibly for Osorio. On the flipside, he won't want to upset the team vibe as that would hurt his chances. So given that, I expect few changes. I hope one of those chances is Choniere, but I cannot see Raposo coming in. Maybe we see Ahmed and maybe Corbeanu.

Maybe any mixing up will come at the tail end of the roster from the guys who are less core. Leaving Brym at home won't probably change the dressing room dynamics. Dropping Hoilett probably won't as he's missed stretches due to injury not so long ago. Not sure whether Oso is a guy who you could drop without much fuss from the team. Maybe? Adekugbe may be another one you could drop. Vitoria you maybe could get away with due to his age. Same with Borjan even though he's a big personality I kind of doubt the team would be upset at that. All of this is speculative guesswork on my part.

[yomurphy1]

The Men's National Team doesn't seem to be in EAFC 24. 

Women's is. 

This sort of thing drives me up the wall especially as it seemed like the CSA has solved this circa 2013ish.

Being able for kids to play as Canada is such a huge way to build interest/familiarity and either the CSA or EA has dropped the ball. 

[sose]

39 minutes ago, yomurphy1 said:

The Men's National Team doesn't seem to be in EAFC 24. 

Women's is. 

This sort of thing drives me up the wall especially as it seemed like the CSA has solved this circa 2013ish.

Being able for kids to play as Canada is such a huge way to build interest/familiarity and either the CSA or EA has dropped the ball. 

considering the game is made in Canada lol

[Stoppage Time]

5 hours ago, Shway said:

The October squad list should be interesting considering a lot of vets aren't in form (Adekugbe, Osorio, Vitoria, Hoilett). And a lot of guys who haven't been called deserve a call like Choiniere, Raposo, Corbeanu.

...I want to think Biello will mix things up. 

 

There is no point in bring in injured or otherwise unfit players. A solid core will be included certainly, but this is a chance for a couple of new faces to be invited in for a look see. Any dual-nationals fit the bill for a familiarity call up?

[Dominic94]

2 hours ago, yomurphy1 said:

The Men's National Team doesn't seem to be in EAFC 24. 

Women's is. 

This sort of thing drives me up the wall especially as it seemed like the CSA has solved this circa 2013ish.

Being able for kids to play as Canada is such a huge way to build interest/familiarity and either the CSA or EA has dropped the ball. 

You’ve got to be kidding me