General Discussion on CMNT

[Obinna]

@dyslexic nam let me attempt to make sense of it...

When @Free kick says the world junior hockey championships should be put in the "proper context", I believe he is thinking in "soccer terms". He basically says fans shouldn't prioritize youth/junior tournaments over the "real" world championships, as this is backward. I get his point, but I would first say 1) there's no rule that it has to be this way, and 2) money flows where it flows - it is what it is. 

Now to expand on that 2nd point:

Like most things, financial motivation here is a driving force, I believe. Good or bad, the reality (probably) is that stakeholders benefit from the media pumping up the World Junior hockey championships - that's why the do so. These stakeholders obviously include the networks themselves, along with the hockey infrastructure at large, especially in Canada where the tournament has been played 16 times, more than double anywhere else if my memory serves me correct.

Like you say, we are a hockey-mad nation, and we have turned this event into a cash-cow for hockey in Canada. In some ways it reminds me of how the Gold Cup is a mechanism to pump dollars into USSF/CONCACAF. 

The other thing here is that the "real" World Championships seem to exclusively be hosted in Europe. As such, pumping that event up on this side of the pond, and getting people excited about it so they can spend money on it, just doesn't have the same financial reward. The games aren't even hosted here, for starters. 

International hockey is something of a bi-polar world with nothing in between. There is "CANADA-usa" ...then there is "EUROPE".

I lost interest in hockey a long time ago, so I am not up to speed on it (especially the international game), but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the European hockey system pumps up and promotes the World Championships (since they seem to always host it), much the same way as Canada does for the World Jrs - each side financially motivated to do so.

Finally, this is just a largely uninformed best guess as a non-hockey guy. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obinna

[sebdeserio]

We never get best on best anymore, and when we did it was every 4 years and this is the closest we get to it. The world championships don't count when most of the actual best are still in the playoffs and the ones that play are basically in vacation mode.

 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

Most poster taking a look at this thread right now:

[VinceA]

"General discussion on Canada men's nockey team"

[InglewoodJack]

  

14 hours ago, EJsens1 said:

You’re spot on. I’ve hated this tournament for years and this is from someone who works in hockey. It’s the biggest fraud of a tournament I’ve ever seen. You have about 4 good teams (Canada, US, Sweden and the Russians when they participate), Finland kind of in the middle, with the Czech’s and Slovaks another tier down, plus the rest. Nobody outside of Canada gives a fuck about this tournament. Hopefully they put the tournament back in Buffalo again for a 3rd time in less than a decade..

I get this is where TSN’s bread and butter is but as a soccer fan too, it’s frustrating to see 

Attendance numbers when the tournament is in Europe say otherwise. I think the last time Czechia and Finland both hosted, they outdrew the Buffalo tournament. Also, we just won gold against the Czechs, to say they're a tier below is a few years outdated- they're making a comeback. Sure, no one loves the WJC as much as we do, but it's our thing. The second or third biggest stadium in Europe is Dublin's rugby stadium, despite the fact that 95% of European countries don't give a fuck about Rugby. Canada sends teams to Aussie Rules football tournaments, and Israel sends a team to the Lacrosse tournament, even though that's a very niche sport with a very specific north american audience.

Also, this is the same argument that Euro snobs have about the world cup. it's the biggest fraud of a tournament they're seen- you have minnows like Canada and Saudi Arabia, while Italy, Scotland, Norway (best striker in the world!!) sit at home.

2 hours ago, Free kick said:

Its strictly a money maker.  Its a good example of the sizzle (ie.: hype, marketing, making money) without the steak (ie.; the on-ice product,  the competition, the prestige of winning).  
 

I would never want to see the any U20 international tournament in soccer ever turn into something like this or be presented to me in the way the World juniors is presented.    Junior or U20 tournaments should be put into proper context.  By that i mean its something for the die hards to enjoy and something to gauge the future strength of a program and by extension the actual national teams.  
 

Nothing wrong with with having a Junior tournament and even televising it.  But its just a junior tournament,  nothing more than that its not worth spending thousands of dollars on to get tickets for.   With that kind of money, people could buy plane tickets and accommodations to actually go watch the real world championships that are held in May every year.  That being the event that actually has international prestige and defines your standing as a nation in the sport. 

This makes no sense, because people *want to see it* which is why you had over 10k at each game from the semis onwards and why people drove their beat up jalopies from Brandon Manitoba to Halifax to pay $3k to watch last night's game. 

I've gone to obscure games (Norway v. Switzerland at the Montreal tournament) and had a blast, and I got to experience Connor McDavid's team against Finland- both were awesome games and great times. The former cost us about $15 for tickets too, great thing to do on a random Sunday afternoon.

Interestingly enough, the only countries that care about the World Championships are the countries who aren't hockey powerhouses, because it isn't best on best. Cool, Edmonton got washed in the first round again so Draisaitl can go get Germany some hardware while Canada and the US roster non-NHLers. Would love to have a real world cup though. Hopefully excitement around the 2026 WC shows the IIHF that there's an audience for this in hockey.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I've found it interesting to follow the comments on junior hockey, much more informed than any intuition I might have, so appreciated. 

I wonder, after reading all this, if is a sort of Canadian equivalent of American college sports fan culture, the passion for March Madness of the football bowls at this time of year.

[dyslexic nam]

11 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I wonder, after reading all this, if is a sort of Canadian equivalent of American college sports fan culture, the passion for March Madness of the football bowls at this time of year.

Despite some obvious dissimilarities, I think this is a pretty interesting comparison that captures some of the same qualities that make the Juniors such a success.  It is the next wave of top talent, the product is really good, and the fan base is rabid.  

[Colonel Green]

4 hours ago, Free kick said:

Its strictly a money maker.  Its a good example of the sizzle (ie.: hype, marketing, making money) without the steak (ie.; the on-ice product,  the competition, the prestige of winning).  

There's quite a lot of prestige from winning this tournament, though? Partly because it is hockey's only true regularly-scheduled international best-on-best tournament. It has the same level of competition in terms of nations as the senior level, and the on-ice product is exciting, hence why people go.

4 hours ago, Free kick said:

I would never want to see the any U20 international tournament in soccer ever turn into something like this or be presented to me in the way the World juniors is presented.    Junior or U20 tournaments should be put into proper context.  By that i mean its something for the die hards to enjoy and something to gauge the future strength of a program and by extension the actual national teams.  

Nothing wrong with with having a Junior tournament and even televising it.  But its just a junior tournament,  nothing more than that its not worth spending thousands of dollars on to get tickets for.   With that kind of money, people could buy plane tickets and accommodations to actually go watch the real world championships that are held in May every year.  That being the event that actually has international prestige and defines your standing as a nation in the sport. 

Why would only diehards care about junior events? Junior events are the portents for the future of the senior program; frankly, in a robust sports culture, junior events should be a big deal.

Which was precisely my original point, Canada Soccer would give anything to get to a point where its U20 team was able to get this kind of publicity regularly. It would be huge for soccer in Canada.

[Obinna]

15 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

There's quite a lot of prestige from winning this tournament, though? Partly because it is hockey's only true regularly-scheduled international best-on-best tournament. It has the same level of competition in terms of nations as the senior level, and the on-ice product is exciting, hence why people go.

Isn't the Olympics best-on-best? That's the biggest competition in International Hockey - and I think the World Jrs. is a "junior" version of that, a preview of things to come. Which again is also why people are interested (in addition to how heavily it's promoted).

By-and-large, I think we (in a general sense) have difficulty coming to grips with how easily we are swayed to tune into this or that. We take comfort in the illusion that our choices are purely our own, devoid from outside influence. That's why I agreed with @Free kick's post. Obviously, we do have significant amount of control over our own choices, but perhaps not the exact degree with believe?

Not saying people would immediately stop following the tournament if it wasn't promoted, but if promoting things never had any influence on viewership nobody would bother with it. Clearly it works and clearly this event is heavily promoted with big exposure - just as the World Cup, the Euros, and many other events in the world of Sport. 

Another comment on the best-on-best stuff: The fact the World Championships are not best-on-best (and the juniors are) is obviously why the junior tournament is held in more prestige than the so-called "real thing". It's simply a quirk (from our perspective) of how Hockey functions - thanks to the NHL.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obinna

[sebdeserio]

9 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Isn't the Olympics best-on-best? That's the biggest competition in International Hockey - and I think the World Jrs. is a "junior" version of that, a preview of things to come. Which again is also why people are interested (in addition to how heavily it's promoted).

Last time the NHL players went was 2014 and it doesn't seem like it'll change for the foreseeable future. We haven't seen McDavid play for Canada since the World Juniors.

 

Edit: correcting myself as he's apparently might've played at a World Championship but just shows how unimportant they are.

Edited January 6, 2023 by sebdeserio

[SoccMan]

19 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Some of the old soccer jealousy of other sports in Canada seems to be rearing its ugly head here.  That's something that hasn't been seen for a little while and at its zenith was quite pathetic.

And to correct some misinfo, the junior tournament was popularly broadcast in the 70s, in fact it was where most of us were introduced to Mr Gretzky and Canada's white and .blue uniforms

 

There you go my friend, the jealousy that has reared it’s ugly head my friend is justified in my opinion . Constant bashing of the sport while growing up in this country and being a fan of this sport will do that do a person and yes an old fart like me . I don’t have the energy or the will to debate  this with you or anyone anymore , I’ll just leave it at that .

[SoccMan]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Isn't the Olympics best-on-best? That's the biggest competition in International Hockey - and I think the World Jrs. is a "junior" version of that, a preview of things to come. Which again is also why people are interested (in addition to how heavily it's promoted).

By-and-large, I think we (in a general sense) have difficulty coming to grips with how easily we are swayed to tune into this or that. We take comfort in the illusion that our choices are purely our own, devoid from outside influence. That's why I agreed with @Free kick's post. Obviously, we do have significant amount of control over our own choices, but perhaps not the exact degree with believe?

Not saying people would immediately stop following the tournament if it wasn't promoted, but if promoting things never had any influence on viewership nobody would bother with it. Clearly it works and clearly this event is heavily promoted with big exposure - just as the World Cup, the Euros, and many other events in the world of Sport. 

Another comment on the best-on-best stuff: The fact the World Championships are not best-on-best (and the juniors are) is obviously why the junior tournament is held in more prestige than the so-called "real thing". It's simply a quirk (from our perspective) of how Hockey functions - thanks to the NHL.  

I think this what you get when you have all the best players playing all in the same league like the NHL and the other big league sports in North America . You see the best players playing with and against each other almost on a daily basis during the year , so it takes some the aura of watching a World Championship with basically the same players from the same league . Probably why we don’t have a permanent best on best tournament say every four years , instead it only seems to happen when the league where all the best players play decide to have their players play in the Olympics or schedule a best of best tournament when they feel like it .

Edited January 7, 2023 by SoccMan

[Joe MacCarthy]

Another point that we're missing, the proverbial elephant in the room re: junior hockey, is that we are good at it. Whatever wins gets publicity and whatever that normally loses doesn't.

Case in point, the Canadian woman who won the US Tennis Open.  Without looking it up I can't even remember her name because she has not done much since (injured?)

However, my long term memory is better.  I can recall a time when the Canadian women's field hockey team was very prominent and often appeared on TV (CBC Sports Weekend) being one of the few outlets at that time. 

I can still remember the Herdman-like coach Marina van der Merwe.  From Wikipedia: During her time as coach, the team qualified for every major international games. Her teams medal-led at the World Cups in 1983 (silver) and in 1986, and bronze at the Pan Am Games in 1987.

The moral of this story, everyone loves a winner.

[BearcatSA]

11 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

The moral of this story, everyone loves a winner.

I'm about your generation in age, watched all the sports available on small town peasant-vision (CBC and CTV only), regularly watched Sports Weekend , but I don't remember a thing about women's field hockey and this particular coach.  Could be because I didn't like playing it when forced to in a high school P.E. unit.  

On the other hand (when discussing the love of winners), I always looked forward to the downhill ski season with the CBC coverage of the Crazy Canucks in an era when it was still affordable for many more people to do the sport if you grew up in those regions of the country which had the facilities.  I loved sticking it to the Austrians and especially the Swiss:  yodel on this!

[costarg]

34 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I'm about your generation in age, watched all the sports available on small town peasant-vision (CBC and CTV only), regularly watched Sports Weekend , but I don't remember a thing about women's field hockey and this particular coach.  Could be because I didn't like playing it when forced to in a high school P.E. unit.  

On the other hand (when discussing the love of winners), I always looked forward to the downhill ski season with the CBC coverage of the Crazy Canucks in an era when it was still affordable for many more people to do the sport if you grew up in those regions of the country which had the facilities.  I loved sticking it to the Austrians and especially the Swiss:  yodel on this!

You gave me a flash back to the saturday afternoon ABC “wide world of sports” intro!

[BearcatSA]

34 minutes ago, costarg said:

You gave me a flash back to the saturday afternoon ABC “wide world of sports” intro!

The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat!  CTV had the rights for that on Saturday afternoons.  That's where I saw hurling for the first time.

[Joe MacCarthy]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

I'm about your generation in age, watched all the sports available on small town peasant-vision (CBC and CTV only), regularly watched Sports Weekend , but I don't remember a thing about women's field hockey and this particular coach.  Could be because I didn't like playing it when forced to in a high school P.E. unit.  

On the other hand (when discussing the love of winners), I always looked forward to the downhill ski season with the CBC coverage of the Crazy Canucks in an era when it was still affordable for many more people to do the sport if you grew up in those regions of the country which had the facilities.  I loved sticking it to the Austrians and especially the Swiss:  yodel on this!

The Crazy Canucks were another example of the point I'm trying to make.  Winners get the pub(licity).  Now, when I say winners I don't mean that to be taken literally but actually mean regarded as amongst the best.

The reason why I used the field hockey team as an example was the whole unawareness (now) of the example.  They caught a lightning bolt with van der Merwe, had what I assume was a Golden Generation of players and rode that to short term success and popularity that was far beyond their obscurity until that time.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Listen to her first quote, that was not a prevailing attitude in Canadian sport at the time, much to my childhood dismay.  Anyone who talked like she did immediately got my attention.  None of that top ten finish, happy to be there crap. 

 

[dyslexic nam]

41 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat!  CTV had the rights for that on Saturday afternoons.  That's where I saw hurling for the first time.

I also used to cheer for Nelson Piquet in F1 way back in the day thanks to that show.  

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I also used to cheer for Nelson Piquet in F1 way back in the day thanks to that show.  

There's a blast from the past!!

[fil]

I know some of this talk is indirectly related to Canadian Soccer....

...but I just got distracted by indirect discussion in the CPL General forum... 

It happens here too... so I guess I'll use the same memes.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by fil

[VinceA]

I just realized there's a chance kids we know nothing about born in 2006, 2007 and 2008 could be on the 2026 team.

I'm old.

[Kent]

5 hours ago, VinceA said:

I just realized there's a chance kids we know nothing about born in 2006, 2007 and 2008 could be on the 2026 team.

I'm old.

Or at least, you will be in 2026 I suppose

[VinceA]

And Canada is.....um....yeah....

[Obinna]

Do we collectively have a WC hangover?

It's not just at the CSA. I noticed the guys at Northern Futbol haven't done anything since the start of January. One Soccer Today has been very inactive in 2023 and only just started putting out scant bits of content recently, despite us being halfway through January already!

On the YouTube side of things, Josh at JDD TV has been very quiet, whereas USMNT channels like Tactical Manager and 11 Yanks never took much of a hiatus. They continue to pump out content.

I cannot really give our guys the excuse that we don't have much to talk about, because there has been a flurry of transfer news, rumors and signings this January. Even new developments like Poku trailing with Hacken could be a video on its own. Or what about Bustos signing in Sweden? Larin about to move to Cadiz, but with PAOK apparently coming in? Which move would be better? I would watch an analysis on that. Why have things dried up when there's a lot to discuss and be excited about?

This is where I think on the rise is doing a good job filling in the content gaps. Small channel with only 74 subscribers, but he's putting out videos quickly, discussing the same transfer topics that we are. This is good for those who prefer video updates as opposed to coming on here and sifting through player threads, which gets more difficult the more often they go off topic......Got milk?