General Discussion on CMNT

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

He turned 22 this year...does that not make him ineligible? Also, do you watch Bayern? The kid is improving all the time. His defending is beyond ridiculous at this point and his ability to draw more and more attention in the final 3rd is making things easier and easier for guys like Musiala, Gnabery, Sane etc. I'm always curious as to why people tend to want to take him down a peg...is it because he's getting so much attention, is it because we already expect him to carry Canada to heights that are way beyond the realm of reason at this point...is it because he didn't? Anyways, point being, if he is eligible it's not even a question. 

Is there a clear criteria for the award. Is it play for CMNT only? If it is, then I dont think davies is the player of the year for CMNT even if he is the best player for CMNT. 

If the award includes club play, then surely davies wins this year and should win 9/10.

[Free kick]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Is there a clear criteria for the award. Is it play for CMNT only? If it is, then I dont think davies is the player of the year for CMNT even if he is the best player for CMNT. 

If the award includes club play, then surely davies wins this year and should win 9/10.

There is no criteria.  You can choose to apply any criteria you want.   I chose to look at WC, WCQ and performance at club level.

 

Edit.:  sorry, i thought you were talking about the vote on this forum

Edited December 20, 2022 by Free kick

[CanadaFan123]

13 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Is there a clear criteria for the award. Is it play for CMNT only? If it is, then I dont think davies is the player of the year for CMNT even if he is the best player for CMNT. 

If the award includes club play, then surely davies wins this year and should win 9/10.

Why would Davies win this year based on his club play? Eustaquio has been the clear stud at club level in 2022.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Why would Davies win this year based on his club play? Eustaquio has been the clear stud at club level in 2022.

I agree with you...but I guess he means:

• Bundesliga title > Liga Nos title
• German Super cup title > Portuguese Super cup title
• UCL semi finalist > Whatever round Porto went out at in Europa League (can't recall off hand)
• And if that's not enough, Davies is an everyday starter at Bayern, while Stef only became a starter from fall onward.

But again, all that said I think Eustaquio's Canada play closes any gap and then some, because he's been that good for Canada, while Davies missed the entire first half of the year for Canada. Had Davies not missed that time I think it would be close and possibly in the favor of Davies.

[PegCityCam]

1 hour ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Why would Davies win this year based on his club play? Eustaquio has been the clear stud at club level in 2022.

To be fair we were talking U21 which was brought up in a post I was responding to. However, it really is a tough call as Davies with Bayern is just an entire different level than Eustaquio with Porto. If you want an anecdotal example just look at Eustaquio's play vs a very good (beyond just the Portuguese league) Benefica...or perhaps his total non-play😔 Then you look at Eustaquio's CMNT play, just incredible ( of course his club play as of late has been stellar minus the Benefica game). Then Davies gets our WC goal...

I love them both so either is fine...just don't think it's objective to say Eustaquio is the clear favourite to win the Player of the Year is all.

Edited December 20, 2022 by PegCityCam

[InglewoodJack]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Is there a clear criteria for the award. Is it play for CMNT only? If it is, then I dont think davies is the player of the year for CMNT even if he is the best player for CMNT. 

If the award includes club play, then surely davies wins this year and should win 9/10.

Eustaquio is the reigning (or second most recent) MF (and midfielder) of the month in Portugal, he had the second most Champions League goals for Porto this year, tied for 3rd at the club in goal contributions, there’s a real argument for him being Porto’s best midfielder this year.

I get that everything Davies does for Bayern is on another level because of the club and league, but within 12 months, Eustaquio went from being insane team that is highly likely to get relegated to being one of the best midfielders in the league for a team that just won their Champions League group stage.

[PegCityCam]

1 minute ago, InglewoodJack said:

Eustaquio is the reigning (or second most recent) MF (and midfielder) of the month in Portugal, he had the second most Champions League goals for Porto this year, tied for 3rd at the club in goal contributions, there’s a real argument for him being Porto’s best midfielder this year.

I get that everything Davies does for Bayern is on another level because of the club and league, but within 12 months, Eustaquio went from being insane team that is highly likely to get relegated to being one of the best midfielders in the league for a team that just won their Champions League group stage.

Again, we were talking U21. Don't disagree with your points👍

[InglewoodJack]

9 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

Again, we were talking U21. Don't disagree with your points👍

Should’ve read that before replying! Crazy to think Davies is still a U23.

[RS]

2 hours ago, PegCityCam said:

He turned 22 this year...does that not make him ineligible? Also, do you watch Bayern? The kid is improving all the time. His defending is beyond ridiculous at this point and his ability to draw more and more attention in the final 3rd is making things easier and easier for guys like Musiala, Gnabery, Sane etc. I'm always curious as to why people tend to want to take him down a peg...is it because he's getting so much attention, is it because we already expect him to carry Canada to heights that are way beyond the realm of reason at this point...is it because he didn't? Anyways, point being, if he is eligible it's not even a question. 

Why would that make him ineligible?

@Stryker911 mentioned both the men's and U20 player of the year. Obviously Davies is too old for the latter, but not the former.

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Is there a clear criteria for the award. Is it play for CMNT only? If it is, then I dont think davies is the player of the year for CMNT even if he is the best player for CMNT. 

If the award includes club play, then surely davies wins this year and should win 9/10.

From the actual ballot distributed by Canada Soccer:

Voting will be done by Canadian media and coaches, selecting first choice, second choice, and third choice. The award celebrates Canada Soccer’s top footballers in recognition of their 2022 achievements with both the National Team and their respective club teams.

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Why would Davies win this year based on his club play? Eustaquio has been the clear stud at club level in 2022.

I love staq. He is my fav canadian player and has my vote for player of the year. However, we are talking on the assumption that club play is critical to player of the year. staq was not the standout player for porto last season. So to consider a full year, you could say hes been incredible in portugal for 3ish months? Then a non factor for the rest of the year (obv with an offseason). Davies has been integral to bayern the entire year. Davies is doing it at a much higher level. As amazing as Staq has been, he surely has to do it for an entire year to be considered if he is competing against davies doing it at a much higher level. Take away his last 2 months and hes not challenging davies. 



 

[PegCityCam]

5 minutes ago, RS said:

Why would that make him ineligible?

@Stryker911 mentioned both the men's and U20 player of the year. Obviously Davies is too old for the latter, but not the former.

From the actual ballot distributed by Canada Soccer:

Voting will be done by Canadian media and coaches, selecting first choice, second choice, and third choice. The award celebrates Canada Soccer’s top footballers in recognition of their 2022 achievements with both the National Team and their respective club teams.

Sorry, I must have missed where he mentioned both awards. And I was seriously asking Stryker if being 22 this year would make him ineligible for the U20 award...which you answered with him being "obviously too old". Why then would you ask the same question in response to me asking that question lol. 

[RS]

2 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

Sorry, I must have missed where he mentioned both awards. And I was seriously asking Stryker if being 22 this year would make him ineligible for the U20 award...which you answered with him being "obviously too old". Why then would you ask the same question in response to me asking that question lol. 

Because most of the conversation after that was about the men's award (Eustaquio vs. Davies), not the U20 award.

Not a big deal.

[sebdeserio]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I love staq. He is my fav canadian player and has my vote for player of the year. However, we are talking on the assumption that club play is critical to player of the year. staq was not the standout player for porto last season. So to consider a full year, you could say hes been incredible in portugal for 3ish months? Then a non factor for the rest of the year (obv with an offseason). Davies has been integral to bayern the entire year. Davies is doing it at a much higher level. As amazing as Staq has been, he surely has to do it for an entire year to be considered if he is competing against davies doing it at a much higher level. Take away his last 2 months and hes not challenging davies. 



 

Wasn't Davies injured for the important part of the 2022 part of Bayern's campaign? He also didn't feature in any of our qualifiers this year.

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, sebdeserio said:

Wasn't Davies injured for the important part of the 2022 part of Bayern's campaign? He also didn't feature in any of our qualifiers this year.

For sure! you could say they both have missed some segments of the campaign. however, davies always played when he was fit. Staq didnt. I would say davies was phenomenal in all but 2-3 months where he had myocarditis. Staq was on the bench or injured for most of his time except the last 2-3 months. 

If youre comparing the quality of performances when they are not injured, then surely staq has to put in higher quality performances than davies  in order to be considered the player of the year. This is because he is doing it at a lower level. The extent of how much better his performance must be and the difference in league quality is debatable. However, marcus haber scoring 30 goals a year in cambodia is never going to win him the player of the year award because he cant replicate it at a higher level. 

Davies being injured may hurt his claim to some extent, but i dont think its enough to warrant that staq was so clearly better. 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

For sure! you could say they both have missed some segments of the campaign. however, davies always played when he was fit. Staq didnt. I would say davies was phenomenal in all but 2-3 months where he had myocarditis. Staq was on the bench or injured for most of his time except the last 2-3 months. 

If youre comparing the quality of performances when they are not injured, then surely staq has to put in higher quality performances than davies  in order to be considered the player of the year. This is because he is doing it at a lower level. The extent of how much better his performance must be and the difference in league quality is debatable. However, marcus haber scoring 30 goals a year in cambodia is never going to win him the player of the year award because he cant replicate it at a higher level. 

Davies being injured may hurt his claim to some extent, but i dont think its enough to warrant that staq was so clearly better. 

Dangerous and threatening? Always. Phenomenal? I am not sure.

Let's start from most recent and work backwards

• Morocco - he was good, always one of our scariest players, but he also held onto the ball and tried to do too much.
• Croatia - excellent goal and was otherwise his typical self, but he couldn't take the game over and get us points.
• Belgium - had a good match. PK miss aside it may have been his best match of the tourney. Looked good as LWB
• Uruguay - similar to Morocco in that he was scary on the ball, but decision making wasn't the best from central areas
• Qatar - I assume he was good, but I don't have memory of anything in particular. I assume he was typical Davies. 
• Honduras - nobody looked good including Davies
• Curacao - was truly dominant but against an average side in a 4-0 win where we weren't tested

Maybe it's unfair, but Davies can be so damn dominant that being just "average Davies" doesn't really cut it for me. 

The other side of this equation is Eustaquio. Hard to compare head-to-head, but I will do it this way

• Morocco - DNP
• Croatia - Came out early
• Belgium - As good as Davies was, I think we can argue Eustaquio was better, or at least he played to his maximum more than Davies did (and again, Davies was very, very good)
• Uruguay - I was more impressed with Eustaquio than Davies - again though, could be that I expect more from Davies.
• Qatar - Will just say both were very good. Neither stands out as better than the other in my memory
• Honduras - Same as above. Everyone was bad on the day
• Curacao - I'll say Davies was better in this one (not that Steph was bad - but Davies did have a brace).
• 4 WCQ games - Eustaquio was better....because Davies didn't actually play

The last point says it all for me, I think. For as good as Davies is he simply missed too much time. Won't be a crime if he gets it, obviously. To be honest I kind of expect him too, but these are just my arguments for Eustaquio. 

[Bigandy]

16 hours ago, Obinna said:

Dangerous and threatening? Always. Phenomenal? I am not sure.

Let's start from most recent and work backwards

• Morocco - he was good, always one of our scariest players, but he also held onto the ball and tried to do too much.
• Croatia - excellent goal and was otherwise his typical self, but he couldn't take the game over and get us points.
• Belgium - had a good match. PK miss aside it may have been his best match of the tourney. Looked good as LWB
• Uruguay - similar to Morocco in that he was scary on the ball, but decision making wasn't the best from central areas
• Qatar - I assume he was good, but I don't have memory of anything in particular. I assume he was typical Davies. 
• Honduras - nobody looked good including Davies
• Curacao - was truly dominant but against an average side in a 4-0 win where we weren't tested

Maybe it's unfair, but Davies can be so damn dominant that being just "average Davies" doesn't really cut it for me. 

The other side of this equation is Eustaquio. Hard to compare head-to-head, but I will do it this way

• Morocco - DNP
• Croatia - Came out early
• Belgium - As good as Davies was, I think we can argue Eustaquio was better, or at least he played to his maximum more than Davies did (and again, Davies was very, very good)
• Uruguay - I was more impressed with Eustaquio than Davies - again though, could be that I expect more from Davies.
• Qatar - Will just say both were very good. Neither stands out as better than the other in my memory
• Honduras - Same as above. Everyone was bad on the day
• Curacao - I'll say Davies was better in this one (not that Steph was bad - but Davies did have a brace).
• 4 WCQ games - Eustaquio was better....because Davies didn't actually play

The last point says it all for me, I think. For as good as Davies is he simply missed too much time. Won't be a crime if he gets it, obviously. To be honest I kind of expect him too, but these are just my arguments for Eustaquio. 

I think you misunderstood the debate going on. The debate started because of the inclusion of club form. My point is that if you include club form as a reasonably high criteria for player of the year, then davies will surely win 9/10 times. 

Every single one of your points is so true if the criteria for POTY is just for CMNT performances. I would vote for Staq over davies in a heartbeat, but we are talking about club form.

You can see from my post you are quoting, that all my arguments are related to club play. (haber in cambodia, staq and davies are playing at differnet levels, staq being on the bench at porto)

[Obinna]

Just now, Bigandy said:

I think you misunderstood the debate going on. The debate started because of the inclusion of club form. My point is that if you include club form as a reasonably high criteria for player of the year, then davies will surely win 9/10 times. 

Every single one of your points is so true if the criteria for POTY is just for CMNT performances. I would vote for Staq over davies in a heartbeat, but we are talking about club form.

You can see from my post you are quoting, that all my arguments are related to club play. (haber in cambodia, staq and davies are playing at differnet levels, staq being on the bench at porto)

Thanks. I did misunderstand you were talking specifically talking about club play and I missed that. For sure Davies would win most years (possibly every year) if club was weighted 100%.

What I like about this whole thing is that some of us put less weighting toward club than others. In the past I used to factor it in more, simply because Canada wasn't doing a whole lot in most years, so it seemed appropriate to give club form at least a 50% weight. In some years when we were specifically inactive, I gave it even more weight.

This year I would say I am about 70% weight to Canada and 30% to club matches/accomplishments. 

[Bigandy]

11 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Thanks. I did misunderstand you were talking specifically talking about club play and I missed that. For sure Davies would win most years (possibly every year) if club was weighted 100%.

What I like about this whole thing is that some of us put less weighting toward club than others. In the past I used to factor it in more, simply because Canada wasn't doing a whole lot in most years, so it seemed appropriate to give club form at least a 50% weight. In some years when we were specifically inactive, I gave it even more weight.

This year I would say I am about 70% weight to Canada and 30% to club matches/accomplishments. 

With how things are going with CMNT, i am tempted to put more weight to performances in a canadian jersey. Larin will never ever win an award if club form is the main consideration.... yet hes our all time leading scorer. Seems criminal that a leading goal scorer cant win a POTY award. 

My vote for POTY is 1. staq - too important for CMNT. We neeeeed staq, we dont need davies (in the same way). 2. davies - too talented to overlook. Scored our first WC goal. Was still the best player in most games, even if not the most important. 3. buchanan - hes been so consistently good. Probably our best player at the WC. 

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

With how things are going with CMNT, i am tempted to put more weight to performances in a canadian jersey. Larin will never ever win an award if club form is the main consideration.... yet hes our all time leading scorer. Seems criminal that a leading goal scorer cant win a POTY award. 

My vote for POTY is 1. staq - too important for CMNT. We neeeeed staq, we dont need davies (in the same way). 2. davies - too talented to overlook. Scored our first WC goal. Was still the best player in most games, even if not the most important. 3. buchanan - hes been so consistently good. Probably our best player at the WC. 

Its not criminal if many of the the goals came against sides like the Caymans, Bermuda and Aruba.   For a while he was top goal scorer in all of WCQ world wide.   We may love what he has done but we have to be realistic regarding these kind of statistics when you are playing in CONCACAF.

[Obinna]

Larin's chance to win the award was last year, when he scored a ridiculous 14 goals in 13 games. Can't recall if he was nominated or not, but he should have been. I don't think he was nominated for the CONCACAF POTY award, but that was probably a snub. I seem to recall a futbol americas eppisode with Herc Gomez where him or Salazar or both were saying he should have been included. I think it was Davies-David-Pulisic-McKennie-Lozano-Antonio ....the last of these is what I think Herc and Salazar was criticizing.  

Actually, went to find the video...here it is...tune in around the 30 second mark

 

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Its not criminal if many of the the goals came against sides like the Caymans, Bermuda and Aruba.   For a while he was top goal scorer in all of WCQ world wide.   We may love what he has done but we have to be realistic regarding these kind of statistics when you are playing in CONCACAF.

Then should we not apply this logic to every single player who has scored for canada. How come we have never had players scoring 25 goals for canada. For example, bunburry has fewer goals and more caps. He scored against bermuda, martinique, singapore etc. If we are being realistic, shouldnt players be scoring for fun against lower opposition? How come no one before larin has ever achieved this? 

Lets apply this logic to pulisc. Pulisic only has 22 goals in 56 games. Larin has 25 goals in 28 games. This is pretty close. His 2 best goals came against mexico. 

Look at david and hes scored against lower profile teams than larin. Davids best was against costa rica. Larins best was mexico or the USA  in 2 games.  
 

Look at Harry kanes goals for england. Kosovo, bulgaria, albania, san marino, andorra, malta, lithuania. Obviously hes scored against much higher quality opposition as well, but lets look at relativity here. Harry kane is on a monster team (england) and destroys minnows and competes against other monsters. 

Canada is a middle class team in concacaf and scores on minnows but also scores against teams that are better than us. Kane has bellingham sending through balls. Larin has osorio.  Everything about concacaf is a lower step than uefa, but hes still the best we have ever had in concacaf.

I don't think its justified to disqualify larins scoring form once you actually look at his accomplishments. He has scored against equal or higher quality opposition compared to david and pulisic and has scored more goals than anyone ever has. Its not fair to discount this achievement as easy, if no one else can match him.  

I think its absolutely criminal that a nations all time leading scorer does not ever get a player of the year award. Scoring wins games, even against minnows. 12 of his 25 goals were the first goal we scored. We have never lost when larin scores. His contribution to the squad is unmatched by any other canadian player, yet hes not even close to winning a player of the year award. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Translate this synopsis from Hamlet and say which Canadian NT player we are talking about:

"Horatio receives letters from a sailor sent by Hamlet. The first letter tells Horatio that pirates beset the ship on which Hamlet was being carried to England. In the ensuing battle, the pirates took Hamlet captive; they treated him well and brought him back to Denmark."

[BearcatSA]

Of the R16 teams, an overwhelming majority of them played a back four as their base defence, with a couple more making a situational shift to a back three when needing to attack.  Obviously it depends on many factors (notably available personnel) but I wonder how we will set up going forward.

[narduch]

CP Team of the Year

 

 

[BearcatSA]

9 minutes ago, narduch said:

CP Team of the Year

 

 

Congratulations!  It was the obvious choice.