General Discussion on CMNT

[Kadenge]

39 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Don't you think this whole brotherhood loyalty business will have run it's course by the end of this World Cup?

I mean the part where you take players who don't deserve to go on the basis of form for what they do for the dressing room. Or for past services. 

It's an immature and unsustainable model. It's kid's stuff.

We don't need it to qualify for the next World Cup. And it's probably not the way to win a Gold Cup or Nations League. Taking players who aren't at the level undermines the principle of internal competition, suggests to players doing well at their clubs that their good form is secondary, and devalues the goal of beating rivals by being better them position by position. 

Any nation truly aspiring to compete can't be sentimental about it. Ok, this time around,fine. Bit after, we will need something different: the best guys go and the best guys play.

 2026 is 4 yrs away, so yes the reset button will be pushed in prep for the next WC

 Take a look at the England squad. There are players that have been selected for their past performances/leadership with the National team in the last WC or Euros and not their current club form. I have previously seen this with France and I am sure there are many other examples

 Perhaps immature, unsustainable, kids stuff to you, but it is part of the approach or package that got us to the WC. Yes we have a World class player for the first time in Davies and a few other very special players, but we have had good players before and while not world class , good enough to have at least made the Hex.  We lacked the mental fortitude and we had that in spades during WCQ.  36 Yrs of failure and now we get to dance on the big stage. Let's just enjoy the moment guys

[trc2014]

I think Herdman nailed it when he was talking about Henry.  Herdman feels that he will be able to pull Johnston and Miller aside before the Belgium game (the biggest game of their short careers) and dampen their well deserved nerves.

[Unnamed Trialist]

20 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

Don’t think I agree that having ‘locker room guys’ is kids stuff.  Every team has players that aren’t going to play that gel the team together, motivate, etc., this is not Canada unique.  Teams normally play less than 20 players at the WC, a number of players know they aren’t going to see the field unless there is a real disaster, and the guys who work that role make the team (ie why Steffen was left off the US squad).

The best locker room guys are the veteran team captain who went through the academy, who plays CB and leads on the pitch. Very few clubs or teams have locker room guys who don't play, and are not even at the level of the rest of the players. For that they have some greying physio or the club delegate who is funny, lends and ear and makes everyone feel great.

Going back to what Herdman said about needing more top 5 league players. We have very poor depth, our drop off is fast as hell. I think the aim is to really see our best players in top leagues, or top clubs in the next tier (Porto is fine, obviously). As we stand we have Davies, David, Ubgo, then Laryea when he goes back from the loan. The next logical move would be Buchanan. Some think Kone. In any case, the day you have a dozen guys at that level, you can say what you want about brotherhood but they have to get the first looks. 

Then if you had another dozen in Eredivisie, Portugal, at one of the top Greek or Turkish clubs, Championship or Bundesliga 2, there's the team.

Let's not confuse the "brothers!" schtick, which is all it is, with team cohesion or a good locker room enviroment. Can Herdman create one of those, a workaday good locker room environment, without having to carry over the loyalty points system?

Edited November 10, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[trc2014]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

The best locker room guys are the veteran team captain who went through the academy, who plays CB and leads on the pitch. Very few clubs or teams have locker room guys who don't play, and are not even at the level of the rest of the players. For that they have some greying physio or the club delegate who is funny, lends and ear and makes everyone feel great.

The finality and certainty of this statement is pretty hilarious.  

[Bigandy]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The best locker room guys are the veteran team captain who went through the academy, who plays CB and leads on the pitch. Very few clubs or teams have locker room guys who don't play, and are not even at the level of the rest of the players. For that they have some greying physio or the club delegate who is funny, lends and ear and makes everyone feel great.

Going back to what Herdman said about needing more top 5 league players. We have very poor depth, our drop off is fast as hell. I think the aim is to really see our best players in top leagues, or top clubs in the next tier (Porto is fine, obviously). As we stand we have Davies, David, Ubgo, then Laryea when he goes back from the loan. The next logical move would be Buchanan. Some think Kone. In any case, the day you have a dozen guys at that level, you can say what you want about brotherhood but they have to get the first looks. 

Let's not confuse the "brothers!" schtick, which is all it is, with team cohesion or a good locker room enviroment. Can Herdman create one of those, a workaday good locker room environment, without having to carry over the loyalty points system?

To be honest, I am not sure which guys you keep referring to that are only around for brotherhood. 

Who is on the squad that does not deserve a place and is only included due to brotherhood?  Can you say which player you would remove from the squad and name their replacement? 

Edit* i assume we all know henry is potentially one and his replacement is waterman or cornelius.  
 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Bigandy

[trc2014]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

To be honest, I am not sure which guys you keep referring to that are only around for brotherhood. 

Who is on the squad that does not deserve a place and is only included due to brotherhood?  Can you say which player you would remove from the squad and name their replacement? 

Edit* i assume we all know henry is potentially one and his replacement is waterman or cornelius.  
 

But Waterman and Cornelius are not replacements, as they will most likely be part of the 26.

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, trc2014 said:

But Waterman and Cornelius are not replacements, as they will most likely be part of the 26.

Agreed. At least 1 of them for sure... and then the debate of henry vs waterman for the last spot has alot of weight to support that henry is the better choice.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

15 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

To be honest, I am not sure which guys you keep referring to that are only around for brotherhood. 

Who is on the squad that does not deserve a place and is only included due to brotherhood?  Can you say which player you would remove from the squad and name their replacement? 

Edit* i assume we all know henry is potentially one and his replacement is waterman or cornelius.  
 

Fair enough, with 26 you have filler who won't see the pitch.

But if you want to talk about the 16-17 guys ready to get on the field and contribute: if he were 24 years old and had spent 5 months without playing, Atiba would not necessarily deserve a place. Kaye. Henry. Cavallini probably as well, or Ugbo. Not Liam Fraser in case anyone thinks he may go. 

[trc2014]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Fair enough, with 26 you have filler who won't see the pitch.

But if you want to talk about the 16-17 guys ready to get on the field and contribute: if he were 24 years old and had spent 5 months without playing, Atiba would not necessarily deserve a place. Kaye. Henry. Cavallini probably as well, or Ugbo. Not Liam Fraser in case anyone thinks he may go. 

Who do you take in place of Cava and Ugbo?

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, trc2014 said:

Who do you take in place of Cava and Ugbo?

One of the two. 3 strikers, 3-4 outside attackers, 7 mids, 4 CBs, 3-4 outside backs, the three keepers.

If you look at most call-ups, they bring 8-9 defenders and almost the same mids, and just a few strikers.

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Fair enough, with 26 you have filler who won't see the pitch.

But if you want to talk about the 16-17 guys ready to get on the field and contribute: if he were 24 years old and had spent 5 months without playing, Atiba would not necessarily deserve a place. Kaye. Henry. Cavallini probably as well, or Ugbo. Not Liam Fraser in case anyone thinks he may go. 

So just to be clear. Youre upset that we are being childish and embracing the brotherhood mentality, yet you cant give an example of the brotherhood mentality.  

Which players would you replace atiba, kaye, henry, cav, or ugbo with.... Fraser hasnt been included in squads for quite some time so you cant say hes part of the brotherhood. 

I see you calling for players to be cut, but who would you replace them with.

Could it be possible that youre mad at the brotherhood mentality when in reality the issue is we pick the same guys because they are the best players available and the brotherhood mentality is a bit of a myth.
 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

So just to be clear. Youre upset that we are being childish and embracing the brotherhood mentality, yet you cant give an example of the brotherhood mentality.  

Which players would you replace atiba, kaye, henry, cav, or ugbo with.... Fraser hasnt been included in squads for quite some time so you cant say hes part of the brotherhood. 

I see you calling for players to be cut, but who would you replace them with.

Could it be possible that youre mad at the brotherhood mentality when in reality the issue is we pick the same guys because they are the best players available and the brotherhood mentality is a bit of a myth.
 

Kaye, Henry, and even Atiba. Calling in Fraser. Wotherspoon having to come back because he was in the mix before his injury. Liam Fraser. Brym. 

As I say, if Atiba were 10 years younger and had played a game in 5 months, he'd be doubtful.

Osorio because his "neurological dysfunction" is an injury that shouldn't be rushed, but the brother wants to be there. We are fine with it. If we were regularly qualifying for the WC it would not be his all or nothing opportunity (remember he was already brought back once, which the doctors then realised was a mistake).

But I can't name anyone there for the sake of the brotherhood, fine.

"Brothers" was only an effective formula up to February 2 vs. El Salvador. After that we coasted over the line and since then have not put together two results in a row. So let's put this dogma past us already, it is not even working anymore.

 

[Bigandy]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

Kaye, Henry, and even Atiba. Calling in Fraser. Wotherspoon having to come back because he was in the mix before his injury. Liam Fraser. Brym. 

As I say, if Atiba were 10 years younger and had played a game in 5 months, he'd be doubtful.

Osorio because his "neurological dysfunction" is an injury that shouldn't be rushed, but the brother wants to be there. We are fine with it. If we were regularly qualifying for the WC it would not be his all or nothing opportunity (remember he was already brought back once, which the doctors then realised was a mistake).

But I can't name anyone there for the sake of the brotherhood, fine.

"Brothers" was only an effective formula up to February 2 vs. El Salvador. After that we coasted over the line and since then have not put together two results in a row. So let's put this dogma past us already, it is not even working anymore.

 

So you want us to drop kaye henry atiba fraser worthspoon and brym and maybe even oso. 

Can you give us the 26 man roster you believe is best and most warranted and does not have any brotherhood connections?  

[trc2014]

12 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

One of the two. 3 strikers, 3-4 outside attackers, 7 mids, 4 CBs, 3-4 outside backs, the three keepers.

If you look at most call-ups, they bring 8-9 defenders and almost the same mids, and just a few strikers.

So we go to the World Cup with no back-up or sub for David/Larin?  Seems reasonable 

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Kaye, Henry, and even Atiba. Calling in Fraser. Wotherspoon having to come back because he was in the mix before his injury. Liam Fraser. Brym. 

As I say, if Atiba were 10 years younger and had played a game in 5 months, he'd be doubtful.

Osorio because his "neurological dysfunction" is an injury that shouldn't be rushed, but the brother wants to be there. We are fine with it. If we were regularly qualifying for the WC it would not be his all or nothing opportunity (remember he was already brought back once, which the doctors then realised was a mistake).

But I can't name anyone there for the sake of the brotherhood, fine.

"Brothers" was only an effective formula up to February 2 vs. El Salvador. After that we coasted over the line and since then have not put together two results in a row. So let's put this dogma past us already, it is not even working anymore.

 

Also brym and fraser hardly seem like brotherhood guys since they dont get called up half the time,

[TGAA_Star]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

 2026 is 4 yrs away, so yes the reset button will be pushed in prep for the next WC

 Take a look at the England squad. There are players that have been selected for their past performances/leadership with the National team in the last WC or Euros and not their current club form. I have previously seen this with France and I am sure there are many other examples

 Perhaps immature, unsustainable, kids stuff to you, but it is part of the approach or package that got us to the WC. Yes we have a World class player for the first time in Davies and a few other very special players, but we have had good players before and while not world class , good enough to have at least made the Hex.  We lacked the mental fortitude and we had that in spades during WCQ.  36 Yrs of failure and now we get to dance on the big stage. Let's just enjoy the moment guys

Yeah that and we can also use this World Cup as a learning experience to help us prepare for United 2026 when we are one of the co hosts

[DeRo_Is_King]

Atiba for me is the only "brotherhood" player who gets a pass to be on this squad -- especially since he was only out due to injury, is still a capable player and is still playing at a high level. Oso might have a spot as well, but I have no idea if he's healthy enough.

Kaye and Henry? C'mon, people. Both have been pitiful for us. Henry is in by default because of the Kennedy injury, but honestly, I would have taken Waterman or Cornelius if it came down to it.

As for Kaye, not only has he not played much recently, he has been very poor when healthy. Similar to Henry, he can't seem to hold down a squad spot in MLS. For me, that sets off alarm bells.

Ugbo is in Ligue 1 playing for a mid-table side. The competition is steep, and while he has not been playing well, he still hasn't been given a lot of minutes by Herdman despite always showing up when called. Imo, he deserves a spot on the squad - no question. 

Brym and Fraser have a long way to go. So many other players should be considered first at this point. However, that could always change. 

[jhoops__]

Yeah, Kaye and Henry have been out of form for some time.  Neither deserve to be there outside of the whole brotherhood thing.

[Sal333]

13 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I think you are right that it only affects the periphery. Lucky they let us take 26 players, if it were 23 we'd be leaving off some real talent to accomodate Henry, especially (the Kennedy injury notwithstanding).

 

Isn't your post a little premature? Shouldn't we wait for the roster to drop and then complain about leaving off some real talent? Right now I don't know which players you are referring to. If the squad size was 23, we would not invite players 24 to 26. Tell me which players with some real talent will Herdman not invite in this hypothetical?

Whether the size is 26 or 23 as of this WC, we will not be inviting all sorts of players with some talent because the talent pool in Canada is growing and not because of your latest imagined gripe against Herdman.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Sal333

[Kadenge]

Fact check: When was Henry poor for us during WCQ or 2021 GC?  and Atiba does not need a pass to get on the squad. If he is fit as I believe he will be, he is our 2nd best DM after Staq. How quickly we forget that Atiba started with Staq at CM vs Mexico in Edmonton. 

[Floortom]

1 hour ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

 

Kaye and Henry? C'mon, people. Both have been pitiful for us. Henry is in by default because of the Kennedy injury, but honestly, I would have taken Waterman or Cornelius if it came down to it.

 

Henry has been pitiful for us? When was that?

in WCQ he started at Jamaica(good performance), at USA (good performance), home to Mexico (was poor but was injured and subbed before half) and at El Salvador (good performance).

not sure “pitiful” is an accurate description

[DeRo_Is_King]

1 hour ago, Floortom said:

not sure “pitiful” is an accurate description

Maybe "pitiful" wasn't the best word I'll admit, but that performance against Mexico is the type of thing that worries me. I'd rather not rely on a CB who makes rash challenges and has to be subbed off after 30 minutes. Also, his play for TFC hasn't been good (i.e. remember when he was beat backpost by Johnston?). Just saying a guy like this is a liability when a Belgium or Croatia only need one chance to punish you. I do not feel comfortable at all with him anchoring a backline. 

[SthMelbRed]

2 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Maybe "pitiful" wasn't the best word I'll admit, but that performance against Mexico is the type of thing that worries me. I'd rather not rely on a CB who makes rash challenges and has to be subbed off after 30 minutes. Also, his play for TFC hasn't been good (i.e. remember when he was beat backpost by Johnston?). Just saying a guy like this is a liability when a Belgium or Croatia only need one chance to punish you. I do not feel comfortable at all with him anchoring a backline. 

He was subbed due to injury, not due to 'rash challenges'.

[DeRo_Is_King]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

Atiba does not need a pass to get on the squad. If he is fit as I believe he will be, he is our 2nd best DM after Staq. How quickly we forget that Atiba started with Staq at CM vs Mexico in Edmonton. 

The question is about form. He is just coming back from injury. I agree he can help us, hence he should be on the team. But if it's another player who hasn't seen the pitch in as long as he has, there would be questions about his form. 

[DeRo_Is_King]

Just now, SthMelbRed said:

He was subbed due to injury, not due to 'rash challenges'.

Was that ever confirmed? He was also booked, which again, made him a liability.