General Discussion on CMNT

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

As I said, I think it is comforting for some to be pessimistic.  Fair enough, no one should tell another how to enjoy sport - ie. "Your fun is wrong."

But it doesn't make someone weak minded to have some optimism.  In fact the opposite, if you have been extra disappointed regularly and keep supporting your team it is a show of strength for me.  

I would add that something I tend to do - projecting my embarrassment on others - is usually not really very useful for me or them.

 

I think the best argument you have there is it takes the edge off the underdog mentality for our team and our opponents.  That said, there is lots of other press out there and we are facing professionals, so hopefully anything like this gets lost for the people it actually matters to.

Being a pessimist is the easiest route.  If the team loses, you can say "I told you so."  If the team wins, you can take part in the celebrations.  If you want something that is "weak-minded", that would be your candidate.

It's just not in my nature though.  Why would anyone turn on the game assuming their team will lose?  I'm going to go into each game hoping Canada wins.  Will I bet my kids college fund on it?  No.  But I at least have to enjoy anthems and the kickoff thinking we may get something out of this.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, P-O said:

Agree that 1 year ago, most of us were just dreaming about being at the World Cup 

 

My goal is still to enjoy it with the only expectation of scoring a goal.

 

What is on an upward curve is the depth, talent and pool of our national team.

3 years ago Buchanan, Miller, Kone, Eustachio weren't even on the radar, and I hope within the next cycle, we will unearth some gems and really push our game further.

 

MLS teams did an amazing job in the last 15 years, and the CPL will push us to another level as it will give youngster some playing time and a chance to be discovered 

 

The next step will be to fill our D1 as our D3 keeps getting new clubs. Once we get to that point, the next level will be for our local clubs to have academies if we want to get into the top 20 in the World.

 

Still, there is nothing wrong being a top 40 nation, being competitive and simply enjoying our National Team for the first time in a while.

True about the squad being on a mostly upward curve in terms of their careers.

That somewhat mitigates the team itself not on a clearly upward curve to the World Cup. I think that one of the things we are having trouble with, as fans, is understanding this will be one of many WCs to come and the real point is to grow and build from Qatar going forwards. So there is a bit of over-reaching, and press pandering, and posturing. If you have been there and done that you'd be a bit less demonstrative. 

Some twit saying we'll do well does absolutely nothing for my emotional state going into this. I am nervous enough as it is; I said to a Canadian friend in Spain, this weekend, that I was most worried about having a good experience as a fan, sitting at home and not in Qatar. I want to be able to savour this, and am antsy about how to ensure that.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

As I said, I think it is comforting for some to be pessimistic.  Fair enough, no one should tell another how to enjoy sport - ie. "Your fun is wrong."

But it doesn't make someone weak minded to have some optimism.  In fact the opposite, if you have been extra disappointed regularly and keep supporting your team it is a show of strength for me.  

I would add that something I tend to do - projecting my embarrassment on others - is usually not really very useful for me or them.

 

I think the best argument you have there is it takes the edge off the underdog mentality for our team and our opponents.  That said, there is lots of other press out there and we are facing professionals, so hopefully anything like this gets lost for the people it actually matters to.

I am not pessimistic or optimistic, that is a misinterpretation of what I am saying. 

I am saying I don't need some idiot in a suit to help me be an optimist or a pessimist. Though to be honest: I have never used those terms to describe how I see my teams, clubs or country. It is more like encouraged or discouraged. Anways, I always go on recent and current evidence, including players, coach, mentalilty, psychological curve, and so on. Then I move forward with the team, I feed off them. Canada going into Qatar is not providing evidence for much more than a few fun moments. Those may be enough to get a win, or they may be fun as hell without points, that is how I see it.

Anyways, take that video: they obviously don't have a clue, one overrates Germany who have been mediocre lately, they also overrate Spain who are very iffy despite results. And who have whipped Germanys butts recently. Then they are hard on England because that is an easy out after recent play, it is a bit of a fad to diss England these last 6 months--but look at that squad.

If you have some sense about the existing state of world football, based on players, talent, capacity, threshold, you'd have to say there are three teams that should be bet on: France, Argentina and Brazil. Then a few in a 2nd tier, as pretenders. Belgium and Croatia are in that second group--if anyone thinks Croatia is not going into this thinking about how to redress that loss in 2018 they are not paying attention.

We have a very hard group, our reasonably "optimistic" scenario is making our rivals nervous and maybe spoiling something for the favourites.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am not pessimistic or optimistic, that is a misinterpretation of what I am saying. 

I am saying I don't need some idiot in a suit to help me be an optimist or a pessimist. Though to be honest: I have never used those terms to describe how I see my teams, clubs or country. It is more like encouraged or discouraged. Anways, I always go on recent and current evidence, including players, coach, mentalilty, psychological curve, and so on. Then I move forward with the team, I feed off them. Canada going into Qatar is not providing evidence for much more than a few fun moments. Those may be enough to get a win, or they may be fun as hell without points, that is how I see it.

Anyways, take that video: they obviously don't have a clue, one overrates Germany who have been mediocre lately, they also overrate Spain who are very iffy despite results. And who have whipped Germanys butts recently. Then they are hard on England because that is an easy out after recent play, it is a bit of a fad to diss England these last 6 months--but look at that squad.

If you have some sense about the existing state of world football, based on players, talent, capacity, threshold, you'd have to say there are three teams that should be bet on: France, Argentina and Brazil. Then a few in a 2nd tier, as pretenders. Belgium and Croatia are in that second group--if anyone thinks Croatia is not going into this thinking about how to redress that loss in 2018 they are not paying attention.

We have a very hard group, our reasonably "optimistic" scenario is making our rivals nervous and maybe spoiling something for the favourites.

 

Being an optimistic or pessimist does not need to be a self-label to be true. Unfortunately we are lot of things that we don't self-label.  Your scare quotes "optimistic" is a bit confusing - Is that your optimistic scenario or are you say that it isn't by putting the quotes around it. And if so what is it?

Again, we can have debates which are fun (for me, probably too much), but telling someone else how to take in their sports media is another example of "Your fun is wrong."  I guess unless you are betting based on someone else's predictions - pretty silly at the best of times - it is just sport at the end of the day. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Being an optimistic or pessimist does not need to be a self-label to be true. Unfortunately we are lot of things that we don't self-label.  Your scare quotes "optimistic" is a bit confusing - Is that your optimistic scenario or are you say that it isn't by putting the quotes around it. And if so what is it?

Again, we can have debates which are fun (for me, probably too much), but telling someone else how to take in their sports media is another example of "Your fun is wrong."  I guess unless you are betting based on someone else's predictions - pretty silly at the best of times - it is just sport at the end of the day. 

I am sure when you see the Hammers pundits in pre-season overstating the goals and hopes for what is to come, you hold back. Or do they help you form your opinion? From how you post, I doubt they do. 

You've been there before, you know what is reasonable, also you are aware how hard it is just to have a winning season and make the top half of the table. That is not pessimism. And you know if they are even half there they''ll give you some pleasure. 

Do you remember 86 at all? I remember the France game very well. If that point-blank Lenarduzzi shot had gone in we would likely have gotten a draw. And that could have helped us deal with the next rivals with a better mentality. Anyways, I find the vast majority of fans on this board are at the level in knowledge and detail as 95% of the journalists out there. Few posters here are dependent on a journalist or analyst to sort things out for us regarding Canada (not speaking, of course, about what we can learn about Morocco, say).

[Sal333]

15 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

It looks like this video is back up for those that didn't see it before it was taken down last time:

 

Having watched the clip, I have to say they're all clowns including Frank LeBoeuf. I can see the producer asking one of them to be the contrarian and select the improbables so they could have an interesting segment.

[InglewoodJack]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

West Ham making European competition is an easier call than Canada getting out of the group. In a long season you can fix things and rivals falter. Teams gel. Quixotic narratives come true. In Qatar there is little chance to correct or fix anything, so what counts isn't optimism or teen spirit. You have to be hard as nails and the most likely scenario is what we saw after Uruguay: patting ourselves on the back for keeping up. Exactly the same as the France match in 1986. 

Canada are not even on an upward curve. We've lost to Costa Rica, Panama and Honduras away, we haven't beaten anyone better than us since last January.

A few press pundits are flattering Canada, as I see it to be cool, like boomers like me walking around with Hawaiian shirts. I don't need them, they feed me absolutely nothing. If my wife calls me "el más guapo" I'm comforted, but I don't spend the day believing it. I find some, like those saying well get to semis, embarrassing.

In any case, since one of our little hopes is being underestimated, I prefer to sit on that.

If all this is true, then honest question: what is the point in watching or even acknowledging the world cup happening? No team in the world, no matter how emotionally invested you are is worth watching if you have a predetermined negative outcome.

It isn't a season, that's true for us, but also for our opponents. Great teams fall flat. Germany in 2018. Hell, in their last 3 prem games, Liverpool lost against terrible Leeds, even worse Forest, and eeked out a 1-0 win against West Ham. A performance like that from Belgium or Croatia suddenly gives Canada a chance. Plus, upwards curve or not, we effectively have the same roster we've had since the start of the octo and none of our top players have regressed, if anything, they've improved (exception is Larin I guess, but he always shows up for country).

Press pundits are showing Canada love because it gets people talking- I'm mostly aware of ESPN FC talking about us, and yeah, makes sense, Canada is probably ESPN's second market, but also, there is no point in punditry if you're just going to tell your audience only the most likely scenarios. Cool, your soccer expert predicts that the final 4 teams will be Brazil, Belgium, Spain, Argentina. That's nice. My 4 year old nephew could've told you that. And there's a good chance for that to happen! But if you only talk about the likeliest outcomes, then there really should only be 5 or 6 teams at the world cup, and for the rest, well, they're wasting time, money, and co2 by flying to Qatar to get smacked in front of 45,000 fans.

Edited November 2, 2022 by InglewoodJack

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

32 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am sure when you see the Hammers pundits in pre-season overstating the goals and hopes for what is to come, you hold back. Or do they help you form your opinion? From how you post, I doubt they do. 

You've been there before, you know what is reasonable, also you are aware how hard it is just to have a winning season and make the top half of the table. That is not pessimism. And you know if they are even half there they''ll give you some pleasure. 

Do you remember 86 at all? I remember the France game very well. If that point-blank Lenarduzzi shot had gone in we would likely have gotten a draw. And that could have helped us deal with the next rivals with a better mentality. Anyways, I find the vast majority of fans on this board are at the level in knowledge and detail as 95% of the journalists out there. Few posters here are dependent on a journalist or analyst to sort things out for us regarding Canada (not speaking, of course, about what we can learn about Morocco, say).

No one overstates the Irons' (that is what my relatives would call them) chances if they are smart .  I only partially joke. I come from a research background and am decent at skimming through fluff and plucking out any relevant information (Edit: not so decent at typing at speed).  I take that information and form my opinions, so I wouldn't say I ignore pundits - no matter what they say.

I go into every game thinking we can win, because technically we can.  How we can win is a more interesting debate than if we will, for me.  For instance, I probably am more defensive-minded than a lot of posters, when talking about how we  - Canada now - should be facing our World Cup opponents.  That might be seen as pessimism but I don't think our best chance of winning or advancing is going toe-to-toe.  

 

I remember very little of '86 I was a pretty small child.  I mentioned on another thread meeting Dolan around Edmonton and my nan being excited around then but not a lot else. To be fair, I just remember Edmonton going out to Calgary with the Steve Smith goal, of all the hockey that year. And that was obviously a massive deal where I was. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[InglewoodJack]

Different sport, but it pissed me off how during the Habs' improbable cup run two seasons ago, the impression from pundits and fans alike throughout the entire post season was that we suck, it's unfair/wrong that we eliminated all those excellent teams, every series it was "okay, playtime is over, these advanced stats tell me Montreal is COOKED" and people would get pissed that their advanced metrics didn't tell them that Toronto would choke, Edmonton would fold, Vegas would fall flat, etc. By the time we reached the cup final, the hockey world was practically offended that we had beat the odds, and then it was all about "Well, now Tampa is gonna smack you and finally make things right", and that's exactly what happened, but for a team that has mostly been awful for the last 30 years, I feel like people didn't enjoy that run as much as they could, because so many were so focused on the likeliest outcome (best team beats worst team) instead of enjoying arguably the worst Stanley Cup finals team in recent memory punking all these teams that were supposed to hose us.

I at least sympathize with fans who hate the Habs because of generational trauma or whatever, I'm mostly talking about Athletic writers and their ilk who saw their precious predictive models fall completely apart because they didn't factor in our goalie playing on one leg could play like the best player in the league on any given night, that the Leafs are perrenial chokers, that Montreal's 20 year olds were actually playing well, etc.

CANMNT is like the '21 Habs. Our vets have gas left, our youngsters are elite and ascendant, we've shown we can beat overrated top ranked teams like the states and Mexico, just enjoy the ride until we finally get knocked out, or win the whole thing.

Edited November 2, 2022 by InglewoodJack

[jhoops__]

^ even more so in one game scenarios like the WC.  It’s not out of the question on our best day we can beat or tie the teams in our group.   I’m not putting big $ on it but I would not be shocked if we get 4/5 points in  the group stage.

Edited November 2, 2022 by jhoops__

[Kent]

@Unnamed Trialist, here is some truth you might want to look in the face.

2010 - USA tops CONCACAF Qualifying, then gets out of the group, ahead of England, Slovenia, and Algeria.
2014 - USA tops CONCACAF Qualifying, then gets out of the group, ahead of Portugal and Ghana (behind Germany).
2018 - Mexico tops CONCACAF Qualifying, then gets out of the group, ahead of South Korea and Germany (behind Sweden).

At the very least, people making safe picks would not pick 2010 USA ahead of England, 2014 USA ahead of Portugal, or 2018 Mexico ahead of Germany. Canada are underdogs, but it isn't unfathomable that we could get out of the group. If we play well, we have a shot.

[RS]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

CANMNT is like the '21 Habs.

I hope not, or next year will be ROUGH.

[johnyb]

I've always leaned towards the pessimistic side, but I would be hugely disappointed if we didn't get at least 1 draw in our first 2 matches. If only to keep the dream alive for 4 more days while we wait to play Morocco.

[Sal333]

28 minutes ago, johnyb said:

I've always leaned towards the pessimistic side, but I would be hugely disappointed if we didn't get at least 1 draw in our first 2 matches. If only to keep the dream alive for 4 more days while we wait to play Morocco.

I gotta tell you last night I snuck into @MtlMario's house and asked his crystal ball if we were getting out of the group. It was tricky getting an answer. I had to imitate his voice. That was dicey because I never heard him speak. Anyway, the crystal said we were getting out of group F. But then The ESPN video got me thinking so I asked the ball if we were going right up to the semis as Jack LeBoeuf pretended to predict. Problem is I forgot to imitate @MtlMario and asked the question in my own voice. The crystal told me to fuck off and get out of @MtlMario's house.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

I gotta tell you last night I snuck into @MtlMario's house and asked his crystal ball if we were getting out of the group. It was tricky getting an answer. I had to imitate his voice. That was dicey because I never heard him speak. Anyway, the crystal said we were getting out of group F. But then The ESPN video got me thinking so I asked the ball if we were going right up to the semis as Jack LeBoeuf pretended to predict. Problem is I forgot to imitate @MtlMario and asked the question in my own voice. The crystal told me to fuck off and get out of @MtlMario's house.

I don't know who Jack is. Frank's brother perhaps? I figured Frank just tagged along with a notepad when you snuck into his house. 

[dyslexic nam]

I find it interesting how people approach things differently.

I would rather have tempered expectations with reasonable goals. To me, that doesn’t lend itself to disappointment.  That isn’t some tactical way of viewing the world - it is just my general mindset.  And maybe that isn’t the romanticized way to approach this sort of thing but it is in my nature.   For me it would be worse to go in absolutely expecting us to get out of the group and then be disappointed in the boys because they didn’t pull it off.

the facts: 

- we are one of the lowest ranked teams in the tournament 

- we are the lowest ranked team in our group

- our group has two teams that could legitimately be considered global footy powerhouses and to get out of our group we need to finish above one of them   

- every team at this tournament will be training kits as hard (and in some cases harder) as we are to prepare 

To me, thinking we will have a really hard time advancing out of the group isn’t pessimism - it is realism without Canadian blinders.  Doesn’t mean I won’t be cheering like hell or any less emotionally invested in the team as they fight like hell for a result each and every game.  It is just how I approach the game. 

[Kent]

24 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

For me it would be worse to go in absolutely expecting us to get out of the group

I don't think anyone is THAT convinced we will absolutely get out of the group. For me personally I am more thinking I am not convinced we will absolutely fail to get out of the group.

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, Kent said:

@Unnamed Trialist, here is some truth you might want to look in the face.

2010 - USA tops CONCACAF Qualifying, then gets out of the group, ahead of England, Slovenia, and Algeria.
2014 - USA tops CONCACAF Qualifying, then gets out of the group, ahead of Portugal and Ghana (behind Germany).
2018 - Mexico tops CONCACAF Qualifying, then gets out of the group, ahead of South Korea and Germany (behind Sweden).

At the very least, people making safe picks would not pick 2010 USA ahead of England, 2014 USA ahead of Portugal, or 2018 Mexico ahead of Germany. Canada are underdogs, but it isn't unfathomable that we could get out of the group. If we play well, we have a shot.

The previous scenarios don't mean anything for future scenarios, not in terms of logic. But they may in this way: Mexico and the US have WC experience, we don't. Or: we're not consistent lately.

In any case, I think most are missing the point. I never said I wasn't excited, or full of anticipation. I simply observed certain members of the press were pandering to Canadian media consumers. And that I'm not into being pandered to.

We won our qualifying group but haven't had two good games in a row since January. 

[kacbru]

53 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The previous scenarios don't mean anything for future scenarios, not in terms of logic. But they may in this way: Mexico and the US have WC experience, we don't. Or: we're not consistent lately.

In any case, I think most are missing the point. I never said I wasn't excited, or full of anticipation. I simply observed certain members of the press were pandering to Canadian media consumers. And that I'm not into being pandered to.

We won our qualifying group but haven't had two good games in a row since January. 

Agreed.  I imagine Morocco fans are sitting around talking about how if they can sneak a point off of Croatia or Belgium, they can advance out of the group - effectively they see Canada as the winnable game (which is how our optimistic scenarios play out with regards to Morocco).  It is hardly being a Debbie Downer to point out that it is outrageous that any media pundits, drawing on their supposed knowledge of the game, have put Canada in the semis.  It is laughable.  As you say it is either pandering to those who have not followed football, or designed for clicks.

[Kent]

13 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The previous scenarios don't mean anything for future scenarios, not in terms of logic.

Yes of course history doesn't guarantee the future. My point was just that even though people often look down on CONCACAF, the teams that have the quality to top CONCACAF have often had the quality to beat some very good European teams. Or for anyone who is really set on not giving CONCACAF credit, some very good European teams have shown the capacity to underperform so much that they crash out at the group stage despite having a CONCACAF team in their group.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The previous scenarios don't mean anything for future scenarios, not in terms of logic. 

...

We won our qualifying group but haven't had two good games in a row since January. 

I won't say anything more on this but you surely see that these contradict each other.

 A previous scenario is us not having two good games in row, if that doesn't mean anything for the future...

Pretty pessimistic to  dismiss the possibility positive past but consider the possibility negative part of it. 😉

[MtlMario]

20 hours ago, Sal333 said:

I gotta tell you last night I snuck into @MtlMario's house and asked his crystal ball if we were getting out of the group. It was tricky getting an answer. I had to imitate his voice. That was dicey because I never heard him speak. Anyway, the crystal said we were getting out of group F. But then The ESPN video got me thinking so I asked the ball if we were going right up to the semis as Jack LeBoeuf pretended to predict. Problem is I forgot to imitate @MtlMario and asked the question in my own voice. The crystal told me to fuck off and get out of @MtlMario's house.

All you had to do is ask, there was no need to break into my house 😁. Anyways back by popular demand here is the ball's predictions and please do not shoot the messenger.

Canada 1 Belgium 1

Canada 0 Croatia 2

Canada 3 Morocco 1

I (ball) predict (hope) 4 pts gets us into the next round.

[Unnamed Trialist]

57 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I won't say anything more on this but you surely see that these contradict each other.

 A previous scenario is us not having two good games in row, if that doesn't mean anything for the future...

Pretty pessimistic to  dismiss the possibility positive past but consider the possibility negative part of it. 😉

A bit different comparing the US at the 2010 World Cup-past, and not ours- and Canada's current form. Not past form, it's a present perfect tense to describe what we haven't been able to do since January.

It's our present: we haven't had two good results in a row in 10 months.

If @MtlMariois right, the logic will hold and we may make the knockout round regardless.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

48 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

A bit different comparing the US at the 2010 World Cup-past, and not ours- and Canada's current form. Not past form, it's a present perfect tense to describe what we haven't been able to do since January.

It's our present: we haven't had two good results in a row in 10 months.

If @MtlMariois right, the logic will hold and we may make the knockout round regardless.

I love playing with words. And stats, you can pick positives or negatives from them based on your inclination.

Would you say then that CONCACAF top teams have present form for getting out the group? It happened regularly and happened at the last possible opportunity.  😉. Despite actually occurring in the past.

Embrace your pessimism, it's a valid way to follow football.  And provides fodder for friendly discussions.

Edited November 3, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

26 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I love playing with words. And stats, you can pick positives or negatives from them based on your inclination.

Would you say then that CONCACAF top teams have present form for getting out the group? It happened regularly and happened at the last possible opportunity.  😉. Despite actually occurring in the past.

Embrace your pessimism, it's a valid way to follow football.  And provides fodder for friendly discussions.

Since I did not really understand the question, I'll be consistent and say NO. 

Seriously, on current form and looking at those groups, no Concacaf team should get out of their group. Mind you, I don't know how good Saudi Arabia and Iran are; I saw they were amongst the strongest in Asia qualifying, they may also have that extra motivation playing in Qatar.

Both their groups are far easier than ours, England has shown to be inconsistent, Poland for Mexico, well they also tend to underperform and have not been strong in UEFA (I also don't think Morocco get an edge playing in Qatar that the Saudis or Iranians might, but that has to do with proximity and cultural affinity, just from what I know of Morocco and Moroccans; so I don't think we'll have to fear Morocco in Qatar the way I might fear the advantages Saudis or Iranians might get).