General Discussion on CMNT

[Califax]

3 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

A lot of it comes down to whether or not its been directed by the team/federation. Obviously our drones were directed by coaching staff, but there's a difference between a team telling fans to bombard a hotel and the fans finding it doing it themselves. Obviously the federation wouldn't stop them depending on the circumstances, but that direction plays a key role in purpose and ideology. That's how I view it, anyway, direct attempt to bother versus indirect. Drones are very obviously direct.

I totally agree with you and I should have been more clear.

I'm just saying, at the end of the day, there are massive technological loopholes. The more fanatic people are, the more options there are to exploit advantages. 

[Ansem]

[InglewoodJack]

Wonder if noted Herdman sidekick Peter Galindo had any involvement.

[Kent]

42 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Feels like another instance of “everyone does this but we’re Canada so we’re gonna fall on our sword to gain respect from people who don’t want to give it to us” 

The players know about the drones, just like they know about the little injections their training staff give players to get back after injury, just like how they know what their teammates are up to off the pitch, just like they know about which salacious social media rumours are actually true. As long as this doesn’t affect the players or Marsch/his staff, I truly couldn’t care less about this. Remove the remainder of the old guard and move on. We have games to win. 

I know the twitter account is about no context, but does anyone have context? I can't find that article. Was there spying allegations against the USMNT?

Anyways, I don't love the use of drones, I'd rather we did things more honestly, but I'm not a burn everything to the ground guy about this either. Remember in 2007 when the New England Patriots were caught spying on practices and Bill Belichick got fired and the Patriots didn't win another Super Bowl ever again? Oh no wait, they got fined and lost 1 draft pick. Belichick didn't even get a suspension.

You could make the argument that even the injury faking that goes on in every game is a bigger violation of the rules than this spying, in that there are specific rules against simulation in the rule book, but from what I've seen so far there don't seem to be specific rules against spying on practices. Although I guess the French law was broken in the New Zealand case.

[JBR]

38 minutes ago, A.D.I.D.A.S. said:

What a shitshow this is.

Biello keeping the old strategy alive?

[red card]

2023 Sports Journalist of the Year

 

Cdn basketball journalist

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

How about if you have tape of that special trick free kick move your opponent has been working on all week that could have been the difference between 0-0 and pens or 0-1? They crossed the line ethically. The reason you are stupid to risk something like this is because it's potentially career ending if you get caught.

Edited July 26 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[costarg]

21 minutes ago, Kent said:

You could make the argument that even the injury faking that goes on in every game is a bigger violation of the rules than this spying, in that there are specific rules against simulation in the rule book, but from what I've seen so far there don't seem to be specific rules against spying on practices. Although I guess the French law was broken in the New Zealand case.

Pretty sure there is nothing in the rule book about dropping a bee hive on the keeper during a PK, but it still shouldn’t be done. 

[Ansem]

You need to fire EVERYONE from the previous regimes in the coaching staff and anyone linked to it. Jesse Marsch should name new people.

[dyslexic nam]

Just FYI for anyone who thinks we deserve a special place in hell…

 

[El Diego]

I am not bothered by this, but what is stupid is that this is being done at the Olympics where flying drones is literally illegal. So these two dummies actually get arrested and it becomes a big thing, and the Olympics is all about (the perception of) fair play so it looks worse than Bielsa doing it at Leeds. Then, to compound things, we react as if Bev killed a guy bringing an even bigger spotlight on the whole thing.

I'm totally confused as to the coverage and response this is getting.

[YorkRegionFan]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You need to fire EVERYONE from the previous regimes in the coaching staff and anyone linked to it. Jesse Marsch should name new people.

I think Herdman took almost everyone with him to TFC.

[Mihairokov]

36 minutes ago, red card said:

2023 Sports Journalist of the Year

 

Cdn basketball journalist

 

Contrast Grange's response to Madani's and it's like night and day.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

12 minutes ago, YorkRegionFan said:

I think Herdman took almost everyone with him to TFC.

Biello is the obvious exception.

[InglewoodJack]

13 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I am not bothered by this, but what is stupid is that this is being done at the Olympics where flying drones is literally illegal. So these two dummies actually get arrested and it becomes a big thing, and the Olympics is all about (the perception of) fair play so it looks worse than Bielsa doing it at Leeds. Then, to compound things, we react as if Bev killed a guy bringing an even bigger spotlight on the whole thing.

I'm totally confused as to the coverage and response this is getting.

My twitter feed is obviously skewed towards Canada soccer supporters, but I’m seeing a vibe shift today where most people seem to feel that this has already gotten overblown. I think a few heads should roll, but this whole talk about maybe Sinc loses her medal, maybe Marsch needs to go too, everything we’ve done since WCQ is tarnished, etc. Is just pure insanity. 

[red card]

11 hours ago, Bison44 said:

He sure has a knack for getting anon sources to come forward with dirt.  I cant comment on all his hockey scandal stories but (dont follow it enough anymore) but his CDN soccer stories were not the best as it was clear to anyone who does follow the national teams he was not real versed in the subject matter and mainly focused on the scandal. Which can be good reporting.  

As I have mentioned at least a couple of times in the CSA Pay & CSB threads, Westhead doesn't know enough about the sport and doesn't have contacts globally in the sport to adequately vet and add context to what his sources were telling him. He usually didn't do it or used his hockey-centric experts who projected Hockey Canada metrics onto Canada Soccer.

So, his sources have continued to take advantage as they know there will be no pushback. And the previous Canada Soccer management was too hapless to counter the narratives. But the benefit of Westhead's naive reporting is that it revealed interesting tidbits which helped to connect the dots for those who follow the business side of the sport. And it revealed where the sources wanted us to look to find the "dead bodies" .

The recent government issued governance report basically said Westhead sources used him to weaponize their views:

"The issues that CS faced such as the GS transition, the CSB renegotiation and the CBAs were used as weapons by those who wanted to criticize the organization, often without enough information to make evidence-based opinion. If the Board would have had been more transparent and informative, this would have helped mitigate criticisms or the “weaponizing” syndrome."

Edited July 26 by red card

[frattinator]

Yeah absolutely overblown. We needed to make some changes and penance but this rush by Canadian supports / media to see who can commit the most gruesome seppuku is kind of insane 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 minutes ago, red card said:

..."The issues that CS faced such as the GS transition, the CSB renegotiation and the CBAs were used as weapons by those who wanted to criticize the organization, often without enough information to make evidence-based opinion. If the Board would have had been more transparent and informative, this would have helped mitigate criticisms or the “weaponizing” syndrome."

Don't see Westhead's name anywhere in that quote. I think a reference to the mainstream media would have rated a mention if that was what they had in mind. Note also that often does not mean the same thing as always.

[Califax]

42 minutes ago, costarg said:

Pretty sure there is nothing in the rule book about dropping a bee hive on the keeper during a PK, but it still shouldn’t be done. 

 

[ahmedou]

The CMNT (Soccer) aren't qualified to the Olympics since 1984! 40 years! 

Something has to change! 

Hopefully we'll have great generation of talents in the next years!

[El Diego]

8 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

My twitter feed is obviously skewed towards Canada soccer supporters, but I’m seeing a vibe shift today where most people seem to feel that this has already gotten overblown. I think a few heads should roll, but this whole talk about maybe Sinc loses her medal, maybe Marsch needs to go too, everything we’ve done since WCQ is tarnished, etc. Is just pure insanity. 

My experience is also anecdotal obviously, but I am seeing something similar. It really did seem like everyone wanted to show how morally righteous they were, one upping each other with what level of disgust and punishment they could come up with.

2 minutes ago, frattinator said:

Yeah absolutely overblown. We needed to make some changes and penance but this rush by Canadian supports / media to see who can commit the most gruesome seppuku is kind of insane 

Suppuku is a good way to put, something very ritualistic/public about this whole thing. Part of me can't help but wonder if women's national team supporters, who are a very small community, felt a need to be somewhat performative since they are rarely in the national spotlight. Yes, they won gold three years ago, and bronze and bronze before that, but even during the WC the coverage isn't the same -- if they had done better then of course it would have been bigger. Aside from the Olympics, this team gets zero publicity. You can tell me that "Oh everyone knows and loves Sinclair" but the average Canadian probably has a 50/50 chance of knowing her and a 1/99 chance of knowing a second player. I wonder if fans think that they cannot afford to lose any goodwill from the general community so they have to strongly denounce these actions which the general public will perceive as evil since they don't realize that flying a drone over training is not a big deal in the world of soccer.

[Soro17]

29 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I am not bothered by this, but what is stupid is that this is being done at the Olympics where flying drones is literally illegal. So these two dummies actually get arrested and it becomes a big thing, and the Olympics is all about (the perception of) fair play so it looks worse than Bielsa doing it at Leeds. Then, to compound things, we react as if Bev killed a guy bringing an even bigger spotlight on the whole thing.

I'm totally confused as to the coverage and response this is getting.

I can't believe those idiots got caught. Were they doing it from a park bench across the street? You could do it from your hotel room 5 km away and have the drone return through the balcony door.  

[InglewoodJack]

8 minutes ago, Soro17 said:

I can't believe those idiots got caught. Were they doing it from a park bench across the street? You could do it from your hotel room 5 km away and have the drone return through the balcony door.  

I’m imagining an inspector clouseau looking French cop following a drone for 5KM through the streets of Paris until he finds it entering a hotel balcony door, balcony adorned with a massive Canadian flag 

[narduch]

18 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Don't see Westhead's name anywhere in that quote. I think a reference to the mainstream media would have rated a mention if that was what they had in mind. Note also that often does not mean the same thing as always.

Self professed board genius that can't read between the lines.

[Obinna]

10 hours ago, costarg said:

No. This is too far. There is a massive gap between ridding ourselves of a loser mentality and cheating. There is also a huge gap between inviting a Soca band and fuck Croatia. It’s about class and self respect. I don’t want to win at all costs, i want to preserve our self respect as well as being an honorable model and example. We’re better than that as a soccer team as well as Canadians.
 

If other countries want to lower their standards then that is on them, i prefer we not match them, we don’t need to. A cheater is never a winner. 

While I do see what you are saying, I am not sure where to put "spying on an opponent's training" on the cheating scale.

I thought I should start by looking up the definition of "cheat", something we know already, but also something we should probably define.

The definition could vary depending on the context, but for sport the best definition seems to be:

To violate the rules dishonesty.

With that definition in mind, my first question is whether or not there is an official rule around spying on an opponents training. It's deceitful behavior, but can anyone point to the rule and subsequent punishment for violating it?

Genuine question.

(The rest of this post will assume there isn't a FIFA rule violation)

Secondly, here are some other examples of "cheating":

- knowingly fielding an ineligible player

- an outfield player using his hands to prevent a goal

- an administrator gifting the ref money to tilt the scales in his favour. 

All are deceitful in nature and each would violate a rule and come with a subsequent penalty.

Here is another example:

- purposely playing a match in extreme weather conditions, or field conditions (long grass), that give you a theoretical advantage.

This one is interesting. It's something the Hondurans are notoriously good at, and something we did for the first time last cycle, as far as I can tell.

It's interesting because both teams technically have to play in the same conditions, so you could view it as "fair" and there isn't a rule around it that is being violated, but the intention is to give your team an advantage by creating a gap the opponent can't fully close (training for heat, cold, altitude, etc., it can only close the gap so much).

So let me stop there.

At one end of the spectrum, we have using your hands, max fixing, thing which are rather clear cut. Then at the other end, we have things like creating  conditions that both teams must deal with, but one team can better manage, which technically don't violate a rule, and don't meet the definition of cheating, even though it's often viewed as unsportsmanlike and unfair.

Drone spying, likewise, is unsportsmanlike and unfair, as both teams aren't on a level playing field. BUT to my knowledge, it doesn't violate a FIFA rule (please feel free to correct), but it's worse than manipulating weather/field conditions, as that's something both teams must deal with.

Anyway, those are my additional thoughts for now.

None of this is defending the use of drones by the way, it's more of me trying to exploring where the line is for "cheating".

This whole saga is making me realize that we can accuse others of "cheating", based on whether we feel an unfair advantage was gained, especially when done so dishonesty, but without violating a rule it's not cheating, it's just unsportsmanlike and dishonorable, which are not practically the same