General Discussion on CMNT

[Canuckia]

3 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I don't think anyone thinks the men are right at the front. 

Do you not see a pattern with Westhead's stories?

[Watchmen]

32 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

Perform due diligence as a reporter.  Ask Marsch the question before writing the article.

Are you also mad he didn't ask Biello then?

[jonovision]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

Trying to "get an advantage" like playing in -15c, is one thing.  Flat out cheating and breaking laws is a whole other thing.

Flying drones is still legal in most jurisdictions. It doesn't excuse it, of course, but in most instances this was not illegal behavior.

In terms of competitive edge, I'd think any information gained would be less than the edge gained from leaking your opponents' hotel, or allowing your fans to throw piss with impunity, turning the sprinklers on during your walkthrough, or countless other indignities suffered in CONCACAF. It's not quite like telling the batter what pitch is coming.

Of course they shouldn't have done it. Besides the ethical reasons. the risk/reward calculus is so unfavorable.

Edited July 26 by jonovision

[Watchmen]

Just now, Canuckia said:

Do you not see a pattern with Westhead's stories?

Yes - they all involve massive scandals by organizations that some don't like hearing the answers to.

I read the article and did not jump to the same conclusion you did.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, reggietfc said:

wonder if herdman s job is on the line with tfc 

LIke @Ed_S mentioned, I don't think sports teams care what happened before somewhere else.  I doubt Herdman gets affected by this now.

[VinceA]

This is what we've opened ourselves to now LMAO

[shermanator]

Canadian soccer in a nutshell....

[costarg]

5 minutes ago, jonovision said:

In terms of competitive edge, I'd think any information gained would be less than the edge gained from leaking your opponents' hotel, or allowing your fans to throw piss with impunity, turning the sprinklers on during your walkthrough, or countless other indignities suffered in CONCACAF. It's not quite like telling the batter what pitch is coming.

I don't agree.

For example, an opponent would love to know if we were playing Davies at LB or RW.  That could make a huge difference to their prep for a match.  CB lineup, starting striker, etc.... this is major information which a team can prepare for.  It helps you prepare for strengths and weaknesses.  Set plays for corners and free kicks, PK practice.... there is sooo much a team can learn from the drone data.

[Canuckia]

11 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Yes - they all involve massive scandals by organizations that some don't like hearing the answers to.

I read the article and did not jump to the same conclusion you did.

Fair enough. I guess we're done here.

[CanSoccfan11]

Can't say I like cheating.   I imagine many other countries also do as well, but it I'd like to think we have higher standards then this.

But we are definitely going to get hit with a very hefty fine at a time when the org is trying to rebuild its goodwill and raise cash.

[VinceA]

8 minutes ago, CanSoccfan11 said:

Can't say I like cheating.   I imagine many other countries also do as well, but it I'd like to think we have higher standards then this.

But we are definitely going to get hit with a very hefty fine at a time when the org is trying to rebuild its goodwill and raise cash.

Sponsors also must be reeling right now.

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, reggietfc said:

wonder if herdman s job is on the line with tfc 

Would certainly be a convenient excuse for TFC to can him without egg on their face. 

[Soro17]

Self-flagellation here. Deny, deny, deny. No need to investigate the past here - this is not an abuse scandal where anyone was harmed. 

[CanadaFan123]

28 minutes ago, Canuckia said:

Do you not see a pattern with Westhead's stories?

If people don’t get it by now they never will so don’t even bother. 

[scullion44]

Can you not right now Rick? 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

Cheetah Power Surge (does that drink still exist?!?) to be the new sponsor of the CSA?

 

[Obinna]

Might as well throw my two cents in here...

I am not saying these drone allegations are a good look for us, but at the same time I don't really care too much about how these drone allegations make us look.

Sorry (not sorry) if that is not very Canadian of me to say, but CONCACAF is a dog eat dog confederation, and so is CONMEBOL apparently. Everyone seems to be bending the rules and pushing the limits to gain an advantage. Kind of refreshing to see we've jumped into the ring in our own way.

Now, using drones in a no fly zone is obviously dumb, nobody should say otherwise, and I do think using drones to spy on opponents is probably crossing the line, but I do like the mindset of trying to gain an advantage, even if we pushed it too far this time. Am I alone in that? 

Can you imagine fans from Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras etc. being outraged at reports their federation is spying on opponents and calling for the heads of our coaches in the name of so-called fair play? They'd probably just shrug their shoulders at it and say it is what it is. Meanwhile, these nations would happily point the finger at us, then turn around and do the same thing if given the chance. Just look how they behave on and off the field? 

We just had to deal with opponents at Copa America abusing the half-time rules, taking extra time to prep their team, getting into our heads, while we played the nice, honest guy like good little Canadians. For years we have dealt with opponents inside our region doing everything they could to gain and advantage and win. And guess what? They did, at our expense. We only started winning when Mr. drone himself John Herdman took over.

And that's not because drones gave us some sort of mega advantage. To be honest I am not sure how much can actually be gleaned from drone footage that couldn't be gleaned from watching tape of previous matches. It's not as if we've hidden secret microphones all over the training ground, picking up audio on their secret tactics. We haven't yet sent a player into opponent training undercover in disguise, have we?

Anyway, for me it's not about the drones, it's about the mentality shift to try new things to win. All the motivational stuff, bringing in Astronauts, etc. The same mentality shift gave birth to Iceteca, where we finally used the weather to our advantage for once. I appreciate Herdman for giving us that mentality, even if it went too far, getting caught with spy drones, or getting caught saying F-Croatia. 

I will take a Canada team pushing the limits of what is "fair" and "sportsmanlike" over the noble, naive, losers of yesteryear, that would roll out the red carpet for a Soca band at Swangard, just to make our Trinidadian opponents feel at home, in BC. Like, seriously, what a loser mentality. Glad that isn't us anymore.

So yeah, bit of a rant here. I get we want to be honorable and that's a good thing, but must we really tear down our own house over this? 

Anyone else feel remotely the way I do, or does everyone just want to see heads roll to curb the overwhelming feeling of shame and embarrassment? 

 

[jonovision]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Anyone else feel remotely the way I do, or does everyone just want to see heads roll to curb the overwhelming feeling of shame and embarrassment? 

I'm not quite sure where I stand. I don't think I've come around quite to your point of view, but I'm not with those practically begging for heads to roll and for sanctions from those paragons of virtue, FIFA and the IOC.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

I don't agree.

For example, an opponent would love to know if we were playing Davies at LB or RW.  That could make a huge difference to their prep for a match.  CB lineup, starting striker, etc.... this is major information which a team can prepare for.  It helps you prepare for strengths and weaknesses.  Set plays for corners and free kicks, PK practice.... there is sooo much a team can learn from the drone data.

But there are no guarantees that training formations will be what you see on game day. You could see Davies at RW and think hmm...maybe that's a possibility....and you could plan for that....but until the whistle blows you don't know for sure.

No guarantees.

[canadasoccer20]

3 hours ago, canadave said:

Very silly to hate on Westhead for what is some of the best sports reporting in Canada today (covering both the national soccer and hockey programs) simply because the unpleasant truths he brings to light make your favourite teams look bad. 

Well said.

[canadasoccer20]

3 hours ago, jonovision said:

I don't think Westhead's reporting is always of quality. He clearly is out of his depth on certain topics. But he gained credibility with the Blackhawks story, and now is very trusted by sources. I expect he'll continue to break a steady stream of this kind of story in a variety of sports due to the reputation he has gained.

He also was the one who exposed Hockey Canada/world junior team and the sexual assault case. 

Edited July 26 by canadasoccer20

[Bison44]

He sure has a knack for getting anon sources to come forward with dirt.  I cant comment on all his hockey scandal stories but (dont follow it enough anymore) but his CDN soccer stories were not the best as it was clear to anyone who does follow the national teams he was not real versed in the subject matter and mainly focused on the scandal. Which can be good reporting.  

[Mihairokov]

We can never truly have anything nice. No matter how high we soar it'll always come crashing back down. An incredibly awful day to be a Canadian soccer supporter.

My issue isn't with Westhead specifically but with the fact that TSN and general mainstream media couldn't give two shits about Canadian soccer and only seem excited when a controversy appears to generate clicks for them.

[costarg]

9 hours ago, Obinna said:

Might as well throw my two cents in here...

I am not saying these drone allegations are a good look for us, but at the same time I don't really care too much about how these drone allegations make us look.

Sorry (not sorry) if that is not very Canadian of me to say, but CONCACAF is a dog eat dog confederation, and so is CONMEBOL apparently. Everyone seems to be bending the rules and pushing the limits to gain an advantage. Kind of refreshing to see we've jumped into the ring in our own way.

Now, using drones in a no fly zone is obviously dumb, nobody should say otherwise, and I do think using drones to spy on opponents is probably crossing the line, but I do like the mindset of trying to gain an advantage, even if we pushed it too far this time. Am I alone in that? 

Can you imagine fans from Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras etc. being outraged at reports their federation is spying on opponents and calling for the heads of our coaches in the name of so-called fair play? They'd probably just shrug their shoulders at it and say it is what it is. Meanwhile, these nations would happily point the finger at us, then turn around and do the same thing if given the chance. Just look how they behave on and off the field? 

We just had to deal with opponents at Copa America abusing the half-time rules, taking extra time to prep their team, getting into our heads, while we played the nice, honest guy like good little Canadians. For years we have dealt with opponents inside our region doing everything they could to gain and advantage and win. And guess what? They did, at our expense. We only started winning when Mr. drone himself John Herdman took over.

And that's not because drones gave us some sort of mega advantage. To be honest I am not sure how much can actually be gleaned from drone footage that couldn't be gleaned from watching tape of previous matches. It's not as if we've hidden secret microphones all over the training ground, picking up audio on their secret tactics. We haven't yet sent a player into opponent training undercover in disguise, have we?

Anyway, for me it's not about the drones, it's about the mentality shift to try new things to win. All the motivational stuff, bringing in Astronauts, etc. The same mentality shift gave birth to Iceteca, where we finally used the weather to our advantage for once. I appreciate Herdman for giving us that mentality, even if it went too far, getting caught with spy drones, or getting caught saying F-Croatia. 

I will take a Canada team pushing the limits of what is "fair" and "sportsmanlike" over the noble, naive, losers of yesteryear, that would roll out the red carpet for a Soca band at Swangard, just to make our Trinidadian opponents feel at home, in BC. Like, seriously, what a loser mentality. Glad that isn't us anymore.

So yeah, bit of a rant here. I get we want to be honorable and that's a good thing, but must we really tear down our own house over this? 

Anyone else feel remotely the way I do, or does everyone just want to see heads roll to curb the overwhelming feeling of shame and embarrassment? 

 

No. This is too far. There is a massive gap between ridding ourselves of a loser mentality and cheating. There is also a huge gap between inviting a Soca band and fuck Croatia. It’s about class and self respect. I don’t want to win at all costs, i want to preserve our self respect as well as being an honorable model and example. We’re better than that as a soccer team as well as Canadians.
 

If other countries want to lower their standards then that is on them, i prefer we not match them, we don’t need to. A cheater is never a winner. 

Edit: it was late last night, didn't get all my thoughts out.  Made a mental note to come back. Just wanna add...

Just cause Concacaf is a group of special opponents, doesn't mean we need or should sink to their level.  If I look at the global scale I want to be Japan, not Honduras both in methodology and success.  I feel it fits and represents Canada better.

Re: the drone being dumb, its soo much more than dumb, illegal, unprofessional, unsportsmanlike, un-Canadian just scratches the surface.

Quote

"For years we have dealt with opponents inside our region doing everything they could to gain and advantage and win. And guess what? They did, at our expense. We only started winning when Mr. drone himself John Herdman took over."

Are you sure this has nothing to do with our level of players?  You really think Herdman did more than Davies, David, Borjan and Stache?  If anything he held us back the last 18 months when it was obvious it went to his head.

There is a difference between pushing limits and crossing the line professionally as well as legally.

 

Edited July 26 by costarg

[Watchmen]

26 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

We can never truly have anything nice. No matter how high we soar it'll always come crashing back down. An incredibly awful day to be a Canadian soccer supporter.

My issue isn't with Westhead specifically but with the fact that TSN and general mainstream media couldn't give two shits about Canadian soccer and only seem excited when a controversy appears to generate clicks for them.

TSN was recently going about 12 hours a day of soccer coverage and heavily promoted the national team.