General Discussion on CMNT

[Bigandy]

52 minutes ago, A_Gagne said:

Like the new inclusions an  frankly think we should be seeing some more of that. As @Obinna points out there's some guys here who've put in a good shift for the nats over the years, but that it's realistically time to move on from, however, given we're under the 60 possible inclusions that's not the reason some other guys weren't included. 

Side point, I personally think it's dumb to include less than you possibly can. You never know what's going to happen between now and the summer. E.g. a few guys could get injured and Cambridge for instance could go on a tear, and all of a sudden you look a little dumb leaving 7 spots empty.

Some guys I think could feel could have merited an inclusion:

- Bustos

- Cambridge

- DeRo Jr

- Pacius

- Caducci

- Henry

... that's off the top of my head and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

Also, you'll notice there's a bit of a CPL bias on my list of guys I think perhaps should have been included. The CPL doesn't seem to get much love from JH and the CMNT, and fair enough the level's not that high. At the same time though I think it would clearly help the profiles of these player and the profile of the league by extension to include them on a long list such as this one, (+/- having a few CPL players on a practice squad at a camp or something). I think it's also clearly in the interest of the CMNT and the CSA to support our domestic league and increase the profiles of it's players. So to me (a) not naming 60 guys to the list, and (b) not naming a few CPL players is like leaving free chips on the table. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Our national team should not be used to prop up the domestic league. The domestic league should be used to prop up the national team. Why would we incentivize that playing in the CPL gets you a free call up to the CMNT. It would encourage our guys to not push themselves to higher levels. 

Leaving spots open on the 60 man list is strange but it makes no sense to include some CPL player over guys like priso, farsi, or colyn. 

[InglewoodJack]

12 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I thought the provisional roster for Qatar was never publicly announced in Canada's case?

It wasn’t, but I feel like this was leaked? Might be confusing it with something else. Either way, I do know we’ve added some long shot names on our prelim rosters before.

[dyslexic nam]

19 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Our national team should not be used to prop up the domestic league. The domestic league should be used to prop up the national team. Why would we incentivize that playing in the CPL gets you a free call up to the CMNT. It would encourage our guys to not push themselves to higher levels. 

Leaving spots open on the 60 man list is strange but it makes no sense to include some CPL player over guys like priso, farsi, or colyn. 

I don’t think any player is that a shortsighted that somewhat generous national team callup would limit their ambition about playing in a higher league (that would allow them to make a  good living).   No one gets to be a pro without having a massive amount of drive - even if it is low tier pro footy like CPL.  Being invited to train with high calibre players would definitely not dull that drive.  

And to be clear, it is in everyone’s best interest to have a strong domestic league.   Throwing CPL some love via a he Nats has no downside.  “A rising tide raises all boats” and all that.  
 

[trc2014]

14 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

It wasn’t, but I feel like this was leaked? Might be confusing it with something else. Either way, I do know we’ve added some long shot names on our prelim rosters before.

I believe JH said subsequent to the roster release Arfield was on the prelim in case of injury.

[rydermike]

1 hour ago, trc2014 said:

I believe you need to agree to be on the list as a player. Some of those might not have granted permission (can’t imagine Priso would have resisted though).

For the preliminary list, I don't think they need permission. I think that news came out during a previous preliminary roster. It's only an actual final roster that they need to accept. 

[InglewoodJack]

39 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Our national team should not be used to prop up the domestic league. The domestic league should be used to prop up the national team. Why would we incentivize that playing in the CPL gets you a free call up to the CMNT. It would encourage our guys to not push themselves to higher levels. 

Leaving spots open on the 60 man list is strange but it makes no sense to include some CPL player over guys like priso, farsi, or colyn. 

It's not that, it's more that we have 7 open spots, and if the guys you're mentioning, all who deserve a call before any CPL player, somehow needed to give permission to be added to the list and they said no (no clue why Priso or Colyn would say no but w/e), then might as well add a CPL guy in there. I don't think you need 5 CPL players in there, but might as well toss Pacius in there, maybe we have the worst injury luck of all time and he ends up practising with the team, it's a nice story for the CPL, but ultimately it's just discussion fodder. If I was making a full 60 man roster, I'd consider Pacius on there. I think those 7 spots should go to Farsi, Abzi, Colyn, Jebbison, Sigur, Primo, and Goodman. Would include Brandon Cambridge, but I figure his big came was too soon before the roster dropped for him to be considered.

18 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

I believe JH said subsequent to the roster release Arfield was on the prelim in case of injury.

Okay, then that's what I was thinking about. If it is true that the player has to agree to be on the preliminary roster, then that adds an interesting dimension to the Arfield thing, because it would've meant he was serious when he more or less kept the door open to play for us during that pre-WC broadcast.

 

*caveat that I do not ever expect arfield to play for us and that window is very much closed

 

[Kadenge]

4 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

If Farsi isn’t interested and Abzi really is leaning Morocco, you add Bounou in there too, and man… it’s looking like it was a stroke of genius for us to cap tie Kone. Those Montreal boys are different. 

I don't want to speculate as we don't know if Farsi & Abdi were contacted and declined, but it's not a Montreal thing. Players that have ties to North Africa, such as Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia etc have historically opted to play for those countries regardless of where they were born vs, playing for Holland, Belgium & even France for example. Zidane was an obvious exception.

Edit: Add Egypt

Edited May 19, 2023 by Kadenge

[Unnamed Trialist]

I don't like to focus on who's not there, especially if they are <40 in the depth chart, but: Abzi is not anywhere close to Morocco, Farsi could be a bit closer to Algeria, but the first is probably not even in a top 50, Farsi with a full season behind him could nab an outside spot for an Africa's Cup call-up if they were dividing up the squad based on availability. Algeria has a keeper in France 2nd tier, players in Tunisia, in Saudi Arabia, lesser teams in Belgium. Then Mahrez. But half of both teams play in France.

[Shway]

22 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

I don't want to speculate as we don't know if Farsi & Abdi were contacted and declined, but it's not a Montreal thing. Players that have ties to North Africa, such as Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia etc have historically opted to play for those countries regardless of where they were born vs, playing for Holland, Belgium & even France for example. Zidane was an obvious exception.

Edit: Add Egypt

This isn’t true. Usually happens when they are snubbed by France…  

But France wanted Zidane, Benzema, and Fekir and has deemed Auroar as surplus so now he represents Algeria. 

No one, and I mean no one picks their ancestry country before their birth country…they only do when they are overlooked. Obviously the anomaly is when the ancestry is beneficial for their career, but in Abzi or Farsi case…that isn’t a sure thing.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I don’t think any player is that a shortsighted that somewhat generous national team callup would limit their ambition about playing in a higher league (that would allow them to make a  good living).   No one gets to be a pro without having a massive amount of drive - even if it is low tier pro footy like CPL.  Being invited to train with high calibre players would definitely not dull that drive.  

And to be clear, it is in everyone’s best interest to have a strong domestic league.   Throwing CPL some love via a he Nats has no downside.  “A rising tide raises all boats” and all that.  
 

If youre comparing a good living to the CPL then we are not talking about the same level of player. Obviously the top end guys wouldnt be tempted by CPL. 

I dont think joining CPL means you lose that drive. I think you channel your drive into either taking a risk in a foreign league or staying local. A guy like Oso or miller could have taken a bigger risk and tried to go to europe but they didnt. Laryea did. 

Just to be clear, I said in a different post that its unlikely to impact a players likelihood of switching leagues. 

however, the point is that giving players call ups on merit is much better than hand me outs. At this point, theres very few CPL players who are likely to ever play for CMNT. Those with a shot are likely quite young and will need to move up a level before earning a call up. I just dont think giving some pity minutes to Didic provides the CMNT any value. I agree a strong domestic league is in everyones best interest but didic isnt going to become a much better player from one week of training with guys who are at a much much higher level than him. So how would the CPL get better from that? 

On the flip side, calling up a cambridge/bombito etc could be a long term play. Its super early but they are the types of players who could make the 60 man squad on merit and giving them as much experience with the sr team could actually result in improving the team. He may not improve in one camp but youre prepping him for future camps as they develop. 

The high potential CPL guys could also be considered but theres none that are clearly better than the alternative guys we have. 


 

[InglewoodJack]

37 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

I don't want to speculate as we don't know if Farsi & Abdi were contacted and declined, but it's not a Montreal thing. Players that have ties to North Africa, such as Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia etc have historically opted to play for those countries regardless of where they were born vs, playing for Holland, Belgium & even France for example. Zidane was an obvious exception.

Edit: Add Egypt

Oh yeah, I know it's this. Can't comment too much on North Africans specifically, but Montreal is a very big soccer city with everyone cheering for their family's country's teams- Greece, Italy, Morocco, Portugal mostly, and any soccer bar or cafe or store in the city caters to those people, not "Canada" fans. It's a shame if Farsi really is considering other options. He played for my neighbourhood club, CS NDG, just like Kone, and it would've been crazy that an amateur club so small that they don't even have real stands put two players on our national team and onto some really massive professional teams. Bounou is as Canadian as Davies is Ghanaian though- I think he moved back to Morrocco as a child and never played organized soccer in any capacity in Montreal.

7 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I don't like to focus on who's not there, especially if they are <40 in the depth chart, but: Abzi is not anywhere close to Morocco,

Not that it's the main point, but he's not as far off as you might think. Their most recent team features an LB from their domestic league, a CB who plays for Alaves, a striker who plays in Saudi Arabia and in the last year, they've called up players from Hungary, La Liga 2, UAE, KSA, Egypt, Qatar, and the championship. Not saying he's on the cusp of a call up, but he played well for Pau this year, he goes to a team next year who has chances to get promoted into Ligue 1, takes a step forward, and all of a sudden he's very much in the mix. If he's interested in playing for them, which he is, it's not hard for him to convince himself he has a chance.

[Bigandy]

47 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

It's not that, it's more that we have 7 open spots, and if the guys you're mentioning, all who deserve a call before any CPL player, somehow needed to give permission to be added to the list and they said no (no clue why Priso or Colyn would say no but w/e), then might as well add a CPL guy in there. I don't think you need 5 CPL players in there, but might as well toss Pacius in there, maybe we have the worst injury luck of all time and he ends up practising with the team, it's a nice story for the CPL, but ultimately it's just discussion fodder. If I was making a full 60 man roster, I'd consider Pacius on there. I think those 7 spots should go to Farsi, Abzi, Colyn, Jebbison, Sigur, Primo, and Goodman. Would include Brandon Cambridge, but I figure his big came was too soon before the roster dropped for him to be considered.

Okay, then that's what I was thinking about. If it is true that the player has to agree to be on the preliminary roster, then that adds an interesting dimension to the Arfield thing, because it would've meant he was serious when he more or less kept the door open to play for us during that pre-WC broadcast.

 

*caveat that I do not ever expect arfield to play for us and that window is very much closed

 

I 100% agree about the open slots. But there is just no way that Priso, okello, colyn, michel, costa, dias, smith, cambridge, ennin, farsi, abzi, jebbison, Batyrev, sigur, franklin, thompson, zouhir, coupland, simmons, saliba, mbongue, knight lebel, de fogerolles, pearlman, yao, baldisimo etc etc would all say no and leave us only with CPL options. 

Theres currently no CPL player good enough for the senior side. If you are going to fill out those 7 spots, give them to high potential guys, not guys with no chance of making the sr side. Obviously there are some CPL guys who may have some potential as well but its hard to find a scenario where we cannot find 7 better/higher potential players and all we have left is CPL guys
 

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Oh yeah, I know it's this. Can't comment too much on North Africans specifically, but Montreal is a very big soccer city with everyone cheering for their family's country's teams- Greece, Italy, Morocco, Portugal mostly, and any soccer bar or cafe or store in the city caters to those people, not "Canada" fans. It's a shame if Farsi really is considering other options. He played for my neighbourhood club, CS NDG, just like Kone, and it would've been crazy that an amateur club so small that they don't even have real stands put two players on our national team and onto some really massive professional teams. Bounou is as Canadian as Davies is Ghanaian though- I think he moved back to Morrocco as a child and never played organized soccer in any capacity in Montreal.

Not that it's the main point, but he's not as far off as you might think. Their most recent team features an LB from their domestic league, a CB who plays for Alaves, a striker who plays in Saudi Arabia and in the last year, they've called up players from Hungary, La Liga 2, UAE, KSA, Egypt, Qatar, and the championship. Not saying he's on the cusp of a call up, but he played well for Pau this year, he goes to a team next year who has chances to get promoted into Ligue 1, takes a step forward, and all of a sudden he's very much in the mix. If he's interested in playing for them, which he is, it's not hard for him to convince himself he has a chance.

I suppose that is fair. I mean, he is not Morocco NT material, but as you say, a slight shift upwards could get him a look.

Just took a look, there are 11 Moroccans in France top flight, ten in 2nd tier. 

Does not seem clear when his contract ends, he signed 1/7/22. 

Has had 27 league appearance averaging 50 min per appearance.

[InglewoodJack]

Just now, Bigandy said:

I 100% agree about the open slots. But there is just no way that Priso, okello, colyn, michel, costa, dias, smith, cambridge, ennin, farsi, abzi, jebbison, Batyrev, sigur, franklin, thompson, zouhir, coupland, simmons, saliba, mbongue, knight lebel, de fogerolles, pearlman, yao, baldisimo etc etc would all say no and leave us only with CPL options. 

Theres currently no CPL player good enough for the senior side. If you are going to fill out those 7 spots, give them to high potential guys, not guys with no chance of making the sr side. Obviously there are some CPL guys who may have some potential as well but its hard to find a scenario where we cannot find 7 better/higher potential players and all we have left is CPL guys
 

I would call in Pacius over the bolded, but I agree that if we maxed out our 60 man list and we're allowed to put anyone he want without their approval, then there's no room for CPL players. More of a thing where if you need the player to approve his call up and you can't get 60 names, add a CPL guy, reward the guy for playing well.

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I suppose that is fair. I mean, he is not Morocco NT material, but as you say, a slight shift upwards could get him a look.

Just took a look, there are 11 Moroccans in France top flight, ten in 2nd tier. 

Does not seem clear when his contract ends, he signed 1/7/22. 

Has had 27 league appearance averaging 50 min per appearance.

I'm surprised it's so little, to be honest. But I guess "citizenship" is a bit wonky in that case because some French players are "Moroccan", and just like Abzi is a Canadian for the time being, I'm sure France has other dual nationals.

I think it comes down less to if the player can make the team and more if he thinks he can. Jebbison is never playing a minute for England's senior team barring a miraculous leap, but he thinks he can, he probably has people close to him telling him he can, it's what he wants to do, so he's going to buy into that dream until the harsh reality that he's a good canadian boy sinks in.

[Kadenge]

7 minutes ago, Shway said:

This isn’t true. Usually happens when they are snubbed by France…  

But France wanted Zidane, Benzema, and Fekir and has deemed Auroar as surplus so now he represents Algeria. 

No one, and I mean no one picks their ancestry country before their birth country…they only do when they are overlooked. Obviously the anomaly is when the ancestry is beneficial for their career, but in Abzi or Farsi case…that isn’t a sure thing.

I mean if you look at Canada alone, there are several players that fall into that category and even some where it's not clear that it was beneficial for their career such as Omar Marmoush. I get that our men's team did not accomplish much in the past, but did Bounou really think that playing for Morocco's youth team back in 2011 would be beneficial for his career? Perhaps it worked out for him in retrospect, but I'm not sure that was the motivation.  I cant remember the player's name but I recall the Dutch team trying to convince one of their youth players to play for their national team vs bolting to a NA team.  Riyad Mahrez, born in France committed to Algeria at 22. Hakimi, born in Spain played for Morocco's U20 at 17

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Shway said:

This isn’t true. Usually happens when they are snubbed by France…  

But France wanted Zidane, Benzema, and Fekir and has deemed Auroar as surplus so now he represents Algeria. 

No one, and I mean no one picks their ancestry country before their birth country…they only do when they are overlooked. Obviously the anomaly is when the ancestry is beneficial for their career, but in Abzi or Farsi case…that isn’t a sure thing.

Well I do think both have been overlooked and for all we know they are being overlooked right now, but more so I imagine they are both cases of being closer now than before and thus showed little interest. Herdman won't put you on the list if you're not showing interest. Maybe that's what we are seeing.

As for their play, last year both were very far away, playing in the CPL and MLS Next Pro respectively, but now they've inched closer and crossed that threshold where Algeria/Morocco calls are actually in the realm of possibility, at the tail end of an experimental squad perhaps. If Algeria for example have guys in Saudi and low-level Juliper league teams, why not a guy playing in MLS? Both of these guys have an upward trajectory, so why not wait and see where things stand a year from now if you're interested in Algeria/Morocco? 

[narduch]

5 years ago guys like Bassong and Ennin starting regularly in Romania and Hungary probably make this list

[Big_M]

Bassong has played three games in the last three months and two of them were as a sub...team is going to relegation playoffs 

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Big_M said:

Bassong has played three games in the last three months and two of them were as a sub...team is going to relegation playoffs 

Pretty sure he was injured for a stretch 

[El Hombre]

15 hours ago, Kadenge said:

I mean if you look at Canada alone, there are several players that fall into that category and even some where it's not clear that it was beneficial for their career such as Omar Marmoush. I get that our men's team did not accomplish much in the past, but did Bounou really think that playing for Morocco's youth team back in 2011 would be beneficial for his career? Perhaps it worked out for him in retrospect, but I'm not sure that was the motivation.  I cant remember the player's name but I recall the Dutch team trying to convince one of their youth players to play for their national team vs bolting to a NA team.  Riyad Mahrez, born in France committed to Algeria at 22. Hakimi, born in Spain played for Morocco's U20 at 17

Kris Twardek definitely picked the Czech Republic over Canada.  As did Jacob Lensky.

I think the narrative of "being overlooked" is a convenient excuse they tell themselves to justify chasing their true dreams especially when we're talking about U-17 teams and maybe being born in a place like Calgary or something (regardless of how much of an "English household" you grew up in).

[Shway]

3 hours ago, El Hombre said:

Kris Twardek definitely picked the Czech Republic over Canada.  As did Jacob Lensky.

I think the narrative of "being overlooked" is a convenient excuse they tell themselves to justify chasing their true dreams especially when we're talking about U-17 teams and maybe being born in a place like Calgary or something (regardless of how much of an "English household" you grew up in).

But that’s my exact point. The dream of playing professionally at some top European clubs. The reality that being Canadian, and playing in Europe was a lot harder than being Canadian but repping Czech Republic (or another country). Heck with out that ancestry they wouldn’t be able to have a sniff in Europe. 
 

19 hours ago, Kadenge said:

I mean if you look at Canada alone, there are several players that fall into that category and even some where it's not clear that it was beneficial for their career such as Omar Marmoush. I get that our men's team did not accomplish much in the past, but did Bounou really think that playing for Morocco's youth team back in 2011 would be beneficial for his career?
 

Yes playing for Morrocco had more prestige than playing for Canada.  

Mentioning Marmoush is begging. I get he has Citizenship but it was only because of his parents working here. He was born and raise in Egypt.

19 hours ago, Kadenge said:

 Riyad Mahrez, born in France committed to Algeria at 22. Hakimi, born in Spain played for Morocco's U20 at 17

Mahrez came onto the “world class” scene at Leicester at the age of 26/27! - late.

He made his debut for Algeria at age 24 after not playing in any youth squads for France….this means he was overlooked/surplus to France. 

Hakimi again, if Spain really wanted him he would’ve been in their youth setup from early like Munir. Moroccan federation did the tactic of recruiting early based on potential, before waiting for him to become something and turning into a hope and pray like what happened with Munir (fortunately the rules changed)

I know there’s anomalies for this, but the guys who are being mentioned aren’t it.

[Dominic94]

Farsi declined the invite

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Dominic94

[Obinna]

I think the psychcological impact of Morocco reaching the semi cannot be overstated. Not just for that country, but all of North Africa.

They carried the torch for the whole region and captured the imagination. Suddenly I imagine playing for Algeria and Tunisia is a whole lot sexier, but it was already appealing to begin with. Now I think it's reached a whole different level. 

Farsi is good as gone I think. If you're going to decline a nations league preliminary spot, you are not thinking of Canada at all. You are squarely focused on Algeria. That's my interpretation here. 

In a sense, he has my respect for not playing the game Mitrovic and others played, which was accept calls for one nation to grab the others attention. 

Anyways, I know there is still hope he eventually comes back around, but I fully expect him to get an Algeria call soon and file a one-time switch if that's what's needed. He played in Algeria's Ligue 2 and so although he is born in Montreal he's clearly got a connection to that country. Fair enough to him if that's what he wants to do. 

Not that I believe this factors in, but he may actually have a better path into the Algeria side than our own. He's not ahead of Buchanan or Johnston or Laryea, and he's probably on par with ZBG all things considered. Not sure what the fullback/wingback depth looks like for Algeria, but I would be surprised if the depth situation is significantly more difficult. 

[An Observer]

7 hours ago, Obinna said:

. 

In a sense, he has my respect for not playing the game Mitrovic and others played, which was accept calls for one nation to grab the others attention. 

He did play for U20s I think or was the Olympic roster.  Not saying he was trying to grab the attention of Algeria but had been on a youth roster and played some limited minutes.