General Discussion on CMNT

[VanMetropole]

One word to summarize our World Cup:

Frustrating 

[Big_M]

Great job by Herdman and the team to qualify for the world cup..unfortunately he failed to accept that the difference in level between qualifiers and world cup was very big and failed to adjust..keeping a Borjan (as a #1) who was full of blunders throughout his career and Hutchinson who had become too slow and not able to make the required physical efforts which finally cost the team dearly in the group stage..Thank you to Borjan and Hutchinson and now time to move forward..the big question is if Herdman can make the right decisions at final phases of competitions as we've seen him make big mistakes also at gold cup

[VinceA]

Nice thread from the GOAT Doyle.

[footballfreak]

xG totals

Canada 2.63 - 0.77 Belgium

Canada 0.45 - 2.62 Croatia

Canada 1.39 - 0.43 Morocco

Canada 4.45 - 3.82

If you told me those totals before the tournament started, I would take it all day long. Frustrating results.

[VinceA]

Feel bad for Piette. Couldn't even get ten minutes at the WC after busting his hump for 10 years for this program.

[football_world]

Some of my analysis of the current national team from the match thread against Morocco:

Borjan, I expected better of him at the World Cup. He is like a different keeper than the one that got us through CONCACAF qualifying. He did not have a good World Cup. His mistake of not clearing the ball in the Morocco game, hurt us a lot.  We needed him to play his A game, but I think he played his C or D game.

Alphonso Davies.  While Alphonso Davies can run circles around CONCACAF and MLS defenders, his game as an attacking midfielder has been exposed at the World Cup.   His dribbling just isn't good enough to get past a higher level of defenders, which CONCACAF and MLS don't have.  I think this is why Bayern won't play Alphonso Davies as an attacking midfielder and has him playing left back.  I said this in the Alphonso Davies thread already and I'll say it again here - Alphonso Davies is a world class left back - but he is not a world class attacking midfielder.

Our defense was slow and was exposed by Morocco and Croatia. We need better defenders.  In the Croatia game, another thing that annoyed me was that when Croatia pressured us in our own 1/3 of the field, our defense could not keep their composure and pass the ball out, without turning it over. We turned the ball over multiple times in the Croatia game in our own 1/3 of the field when our defenders were pressured.

Our passing was awful for much of the Croatia game, and in the first half of the Moroccan game. We couldn't make basic passes, and we kept making mistake  after mistake in our passes. Also, our set pieces throughout the World Cup, including corner kicks, were also awful. 

And we don't have top tier finishers - that's why we couldn't score against Belgium, and wasted our opportunities throughout all 3 games.

But this comes down to quality. We don't have the quality of players yet. It will take time. Here is to hoping MLS improves over the next 20 years - I think that can help us develop that quality that we need. Hey, it's baby steps. Our first step was to make it back into the World Cup.  From here, we just need to build our national team step by step.  Thank you Canada for making it back into the World Cup, and best of luck to us in 2026!

[footballfreak]

52 minutes ago, football_world said:

But this comes down to quality. We don't have the quality of players yet. It will take time. Here is to hoping MLS improves over the next 20 years

Agree with pretty much everything you said, but I wanted to focus on this.

MLS tends to get a lot of flak on here, but our success has largely been built on the back of it. 17/26 players on this roster play or have played in MLS. What’s particularly encouraging is the number of regular MLS starters who couldn’t even crack this roster. Once upon a time we didn’t even have enough MLS talent to fill out a roster. The upper eschelon of players may not be there to show it yet, but we’ve developed a professional player base with a depth we’ve not seen before. And the quality of the league is improving year over year.

[football_world]

2 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

Agree with pretty much everything you said, but I wanted to focus on this.

MLS tends to get a lot of flak on here, but our success has largely been built on the back of it. 17/26 players on this roster play or have played in MLS. What’s particularly encouraging is the number of regular MLS starters who couldn’t even crack this roster. Once upon a time we didn’t even have enough MLS talent to fill out a roster. The upper eschelon of players may not be there to show it yet, but we’ve developed a professional player base with a depth we’ve not seen before. And the quality of the league is improving year over year.

Yup, MLS has done wonders for us.  And some top clubs in Europe are eyeing the MLS now - that's how Alphonso Davies made it to Bayern Munich.  As the MLS improves, there will be more interest from the top clubs in Europe to acquire young Canadian MLS talent, and develop them. 

Of course, I hope one day, that the MLS rivals the Premier League and La Liga. When the MLS rivals the Premier League and La Liga, we can let the MLS develop them, rather than needing them to go overseas to fully develop.

[footballfreak]

Something we probably should have talked about more in qualifying, but was glossed over by winning:

In the 7 Ocho games we conceded goals in, we conceded first in 6 of those. That is a trend that desperately needs to change moving forward.

In the Gold Cup, we conceded the first goal in 3/4.

in the World Cup we conceded first in 2/3.

Edited December 1, 2022 by footballfreak

[mrstepp817]

I think after the holidays Canada needs to reset and prep for 2026 begins in March w/the next two Nations League games...

The question I have is does Canada go all in on Nations League or Gold Cup?? The US strategy last time was all in on Nations League, B-Squad to Gold Cup...

 

Regardless of what the strategy is IMO, the veteran guys who were apart of the World Cup roster who won't be apart of the next cycle IMO do probably deserve a send off for a home game maybe the Honduras game in late March? 

[ADP10]

is the team flying into Toronto. If so, when?

[VinceA]

One thing I want to point out is the three MLS teams are on the hook in part for how our CB pool had shaped out. How many guys in the mid 2010s were ignored by Vancouver/Montreal/Toronto and not given chances to develop at the expense of American or foreign guys. None of the teams bothered really to develop anyone and send them off to Europe. The only one I can think of is Henry and he unfortunately got done in by injuries. 

None of the CBs on the final roster developed in an MLS academy.

[footballfreak]

1 hour ago, mrstepp817 said:

I think after the holidays Canada needs to reset and prep for 2026 begins in March w/the next two Nations League games...

The question I have is does Canada go all in on Nations League or Gold Cup?? The US strategy last time was all in on Nations League, B-Squad to Gold Cup...

 

Regardless of what the strategy is IMO, the veteran guys who were apart of the World Cup roster who won't be apart of the next cycle IMO do probably deserve a send off for a home game maybe the Honduras game in late March? 

Interesting wrinkle. The Nations League Finals host is selected by CONCACAF rather than points, etc. If we win our group, maybe Toronto or Vancouver hosts.

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, mrstepp817 said:

I think after the holidays Canada needs to reset and prep for 2026 begins in March w/the next two Nations League games...

The question I have is does Canada go all in on Nations League or Gold Cup?? The US strategy last time was all in on Nations League, B-Squad to Gold Cup...

 

Regardless of what the strategy is IMO, the veteran guys who were apart of the World Cup roster who won't be apart of the next cycle IMO do probably deserve a send off for a home game maybe the Honduras game in late March? 

All in all the time. If the Copa America rumours are true, we’re going to have 3 major tournaments between now and 2026. No better chance to continue developing this team as a cohesive unit that are going to play important games together every year. 
 

fine with tinkering the lineup here and there to give some guys breaks and young guys a chance, but we need to try and enter the next World Cup with two gold cup titles and a Copa America title. 

[footballfreak]

20 minutes ago, VinceA said:

One thing I want to point out is the three MLS teams are on the hook in part for how our CB pool had shaped out. How many guys in the mid 2010s were ignored by Vancouver/Montreal/Toronto and not given chances to develop at the expense of American or foreign guys. None of the teams bothered really to develop anyone and send them off to Europe. The only one I can think of is Henry and he unfortunately got done in by injuries. 

None of the CBs on the final roster developed in an MLS academy.

There was a big glass ceiling in place in Vancouver because we operated without a reserve team for four (?) years? Without those competitive minutes between the academy and the senior team, I’m sure lots of players withered on the vine. Hopefully MLS Next Pro will bear fruit before 2026.

[InglewoodJack]

31 minutes ago, VinceA said:

One thing I want to point out is the three MLS teams are on the hook in part for how our CB pool had shaped out. How many guys in the mid 2010s were ignored by Vancouver/Montreal/Toronto and not given chances to develop at the expense of American or foreign guys. None of the teams bothered really to develop anyone and send them off to Europe. The only one I can think of is Henry and he unfortunately got done in by injuries. 

None of the CBs on the final roster developed in an MLS academy.

Say what we want about the type of players TFC II has been developing, but with so many young Canadians going through their system, they’re bound to hit on a couple gems in the next couple years.

[Colonel Green]

3 hours ago, Big_M said:

Great job by Herdman and the team to qualify for the world cup..unfortunately he failed to accept that the difference in level between qualifiers and world cup was very big and failed to adjust..keeping a Borjan (as a #1) who was full of blunders throughout his career and Hutchinson who had become too slow and not able to make the required physical efforts which finally cost the team dearly in the group stage..Thank you to Borjan and Hutchinson and now time to move forward..the big question is if Herdman can make the right decisions at final phases of competitions as we've seen him make big mistakes also at gold cup

Who exactly was Herdman supposed to field instead of Borjan, who was excellent throughout qualifying.

[TGAA_Star]

Like I said earlier Canada needs to focus their attention or the Men's program needs to focus their attention on 2026 now. Especially now that Canada is officially eliminated from Qatar, Canada needs to hit the ground running on preparations for 2026 especially now that Canada is one of the host nations. But it begs the question of Canada being a host nation on if we automatically qualify for 2026 or if we have to take part in qualifying for our own tournament which then makes no sense. But even so Canada has to put their primary focus towards 2026 now which means focusing on CONCACAF Nations League, Gold Cup 23 and 25 but also developing more of our young players so then that way we eventually have a change of the guard with some of our old vets.

[football_world]

22 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Who exactly was Herdman supposed to field instead of Borjan, who was excellent throughout qualifying.

I think that's one of the problems when we don't have a deep bench.  Even our best players can have a slump, and unfortunately for us, Borjan had a slump in the World Cup.

It's just like Lukaku today. Belgium has to play Lukaku if they have the choice, because if Lukaku plays to his potential, Belgium is on a whole different level. But Lukaku laid an egg today, over, and over again.

Not much a coach can do in this situation if their best player has a slump, and there is no one on the bench that can match that player.

Edited December 1, 2022 by football_world

[VinceA]

Man it seems like even Costa Rica's attack looked more dangerous than ours. Herdman really needs to rethink how he attack teams.

[keysersoze]

It was a wonderful qualifying run and I'm still bullish on the future of the team, but I think the WC hammered home the difference between qualifying in Concacaf and being truly competitive with the best in the world.

Yes, the first half against Belgium was a dream start for the most part, but looking at the full picture it's clear that Belgium was the 3rd best team in the group and frankly they played an awful first half. For as many chances as Canada created, Belgium had probably 4 or 5 glorious transition opportunities many of which were led by KDB. It took a couple miraculous defensive plays and some puzzling decisions by one of the best in the world to remain unscathed. Once they made their subs to start the 2nd half the game tightened up considerably. Not much more needs to be said about the Croatia game, but that was largely a bloodbath. I was shocked at the lack of cohesion Canada showed and it was honestly embarrassing. Morocco controlled the first half and if not for the blunder by Borjan we could probably expect a result, but once they got up 2-0 it was clear they were content to let us control play. We played much better in the 2nd half, but again how many great scoring chances did we actually create? Depending on your perspective I can understand seeing it more of a glass half full situation rather than half empty, but I'd be hesitant to take too much pride in moral victories.

I still believe in Herdman and a lot of the 2nd guessing of his decisions is just hindsight bias. That being said I think there were a couple of obvious blunders. Atiba simply didn't have the legs to be a factor in this tournament and got ruthlessly exposed against Croatia in a game where Herdman got the tactics all wrong. I'm glad he bounced back against Morocco so his international career didn't end on such a downer. In my eyes Adekube is by far the best defender on the team and his 2 way game has made him one of the most important players for Canada. He was in form and fit by all indications as well. For him to come in as a sub in 2 games then get subbed out early today was shocking. Herdman got way too cute with his usage of Adekube.

I've seen enough of Borjan. He can be an above average ball stopper when he is on his game, but when he isn't his propensity for glaring mistakes and overall shakiness playing the ball is a negative to the squad. I appreciate he has taken up a strong leadership position with the team, but I'd argue on the field it isn't that much of a positive. You want your keeper to instill calm and confidence in the defensive play, not panic. Some of the outfield players need to show some more passion, not the keeper.

A lot of people had questions about the defense going into the WC and they were exposed. I don't think the back 3 as constituted covers for any of weaknesses each player has. Their overall ball progression isn't terrible, but when the shape of the team leaves them so isolated it magnifies the issues. Eustaquio being hurt and not being able to drop back and relieve pressure was a huge loss, but overall there needs to either be a formation shift and/or personnel shift. The defensive record against a lot of minnows/teams with anemic attacks in Concacaf masked just how much the defensive play of Canada needs to improve. It didn't help that a lot of the attackers and even midfield were lazy in getting back which I was not expecting.

Eustaquio obviously has class, but outside of him who is going to step up and be that release valve and who is going to create some chances for the wingers/strikers? He can't play the 6 AND 8. I like the potential of Kone, but I think his overall impact for the National Team has been overstated. He is so young that it's perfectly reasonable that he has his inconsistencies, but his development going forward is  obviously huge for the team.

There was a tendency for the defense and a midfielder to be isolated and just be lobbing up long balls to the wingers/attackers with little chance for success. It's clear that Canada's attack is best from the wings, but you need to do better than that. We all know Larin can be up and down, but David being a complete no show was probably my biggest disappointment. It truly looks like he should be more of an attacking midfielder for Canada to get him more involved in the game. When your entire attack is predicated on long balls and wingers dribbling past 2 or 3 defenders it's incredibly easy to stop by decent opposition. We know Davies and Tajon have quality, but how do you create something down the middle?

I really hope that we see Atiba, Borjan and Vitoria phased out next year and an emphasis on phasing in new players and formations with an eye to 2026. This team has moved past trying to gameplan for minnows.   

 

[PopePouri]

I hope it's a stepping stone for a lot of players and they all get moves and progress.

[Grandbloke]

18 minutes ago, keysersoze said:

I really hope that we see Atiba, Borjan and Vitoria phased out next year and an emphasis on phasing in new players and formations with an eye to 2026. 

 

Agreed. Those 3 players will not be on our 2026 World Cup squad. It’s time to thank them for their valued contributions to our national team and to move on. If we continue to play them, we will just be robbing some of our young prospects of needed playing time.

[The Beaver 2.0]

24 minutes ago, keysersoze said:

It was a wonderful qualifying run and I'm still bullish on the future of the team, but I think the WC hammered home the difference between qualifying in Concacaf and being truly competitive with the best in the world.

Yes, the first half against Belgium was a dream start for the most part, but looking at the full picture it's clear that Belgium was the 3rd best team in the group and frankly they played an awful first half. For as many chances as Canada created, Belgium had probably 4 or 5 glorious transition opportunities many of which were led by KDB. It took a couple miraculous defensive plays and some puzzling decisions by one of the best in the world to remain unscathed. Once they made their subs to start the 2nd half the game tightened up considerably. Not much more needs to be said about the Croatia game, but that was largely a bloodbath. I was shocked at the lack of cohesion Canada showed and it was honestly embarrassing. Morocco controlled the first half and if not for the blunder by Borjan we could probably expect a result, but once they got up 2-0 it was clear they were content to let us control play. We played much better in the 2nd half, but again how many great scoring chances did we actually create? Depending on your perspective I can understand seeing it more of a glass half full situation rather than half empty, but I'd be hesitant to take too much pride in moral victories.

I still believe in Herdman and a lot of the 2nd guessing of his decisions is just hindsight bias. That being said I think there were a couple of obvious blunders. Atiba simply didn't have the legs to be a factor in this tournament and got ruthlessly exposed against Croatia in a game where Herdman got the tactics all wrong. I'm glad he bounced back against Morocco so his international career didn't end on such a downer. In my eyes Adekube is by far the best defender on the team and his 2 way game has made him one of the most important players for Canada. He was in form and fit by all indications as well. For him to come in as a sub in 2 games then get subbed out early today was shocking. Herdman got way too cute with his usage of Adekube.

I've seen enough of Borjan. He can be an above average ball stopper when he is on his game, but when he isn't his propensity for glaring mistakes and overall shakiness playing the ball is a negative to the squad. I appreciate he has taken up a strong leadership position with the team, but I'd argue on the field it isn't that much of a positive. You want your keeper to instill calm and confidence in the defensive play, not panic. Some of the outfield players need to show some more passion, not the keeper.

A lot of people had questions about the defense going into the WC and they were exposed. I don't think the back 3 as constituted covers for any of weaknesses each player has. Their overall ball progression isn't terrible, but when the shape of the team leaves them so isolated it magnifies the issues. Eustaquio being hurt and not being able to drop back and relieve pressure was a huge loss, but overall there needs to either be a formation shift and/or personnel shift. The defensive record against a lot of minnows/teams with anemic attacks in Concacaf masked just how much the defensive play of Canada needs to improve. It didn't help that a lot of the attackers and even midfield were lazy in getting back which I was not expecting.

Eustaquio obviously has class, but outside of him who is going to step up and be that release valve and who is going to create some chances for the wingers/strikers? He can't play the 6 AND 8. I like the potential of Kone, but I think his overall impact for the National Team has been overstated. He is so young that it's perfectly reasonable that he has his inconsistencies, but his development going forward is  obviously huge for the team.

There was a tendency for the defense and a midfielder to be isolated and just be lobbing up long balls to the wingers/attackers with little chance for success. It's clear that Canada's attack is best from the wings, but you need to do better than that. We all know Larin can be up and down, but David being a complete no show was probably my biggest disappointment. It truly looks like he should be more of an attacking midfielder for Canada to get him more involved in the game. When your entire attack is predicated on long balls and wingers dribbling past 2 or 3 defenders it's incredibly easy to stop by decent opposition. We know Davies and Tajon have quality, but how do you create something down the middle?

I really hope that we see Atiba, Borjan and Vitoria phased out next year and an emphasis on phasing in new players and formations with an eye to 2026. This team has moved past trying to gameplan for minnows.   

 

Good analysis. I agree with pretty much everything you write here. Perhaps a bit more could be said about Herdman's tactics and formations, which I found too naive to be believed.  I am not convinced 3-4-3 suits our skillset. I worry, too, that Herdman is taking his tactics from the players when he needs to be thinking what is best for the specific talent (and limitations) of his squad too.  And, just to be controversial, Staq is both our best and most important player.  Until Davies learns to be a footballer, he will always just be a super fast, super nimble racehorse.  I love the kid, and I think he can be exhilarating to watch, but he needs to play to his strengths (just like the rest of us).  If he does that, then he can be legendary like Maldini or Roberto Carlos et al. I worry that Herdman is struggling to figure this stuff out, or that he does not have the player management skills to do so.  

But I am also optimistic.  If we learn a ton from this WC and start applying that learning and grow from it, then I am excited to see what this team can accomplish. I suspect we are still 10 years away from being a top 20 team, but perhaps we can get there a bit faster.

[jonovision]

47 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Until Davies learns to be a footballer, he will always just be a super fast, super nimble racehorse.  I love the kid, and I think he can be exhilarating to watch, but he needs to play to his strengths (just like the rest of us).  If he does that, then he can be legendary like Maldini or Roberto Carlos et al. I worry that Herdman is struggling to figure this stuff out, or that he does not have the player management skills to do so.  

I would phrase that as "he needs to be played to highlight his strengths" -- that is, as a left back, a position he plays better than most others in the world.