General Discussion on CMNT

[Saviola7]

Hi all,

 

I was looking for a Canada World Cup song/video (in the line of "Football's Coming Home") and I couldn't find one. I therefore set some scenes to the Arkells "Years in the Making" and I came out of lurking for 10 years (!) to share it:

 

 

Hope you enjoy it. Still can't believe we actually qualified.

[Sal333]

29 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Maybe "pitiful" wasn't the best word I'll admit, but that performance against Mexico is the type of thing that worries me. I'd rather not rely on a CB who makes rash challenges and has to be subbed off after 30 minutes. Also, his play for TFC hasn't been good (i.e. remember when he was beat backpost by Johnston?). Just saying a guy like this is a liability when a Belgium or Croatia only need one chance to punish you. I do not feel comfortable at all with him anchoring a backline. 

He was subbed off because he was hurt.

Who would you invite instead of him? MacNaughton?

[CanadaFan123]

46 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Maybe "pitiful" wasn't the best word I'll admit, but that performance against Mexico is the type of thing that worries me. I'd rather not rely on a CB who makes rash challenges and has to be subbed off after 30 minutes. Also, his play for TFC hasn't been good (i.e. remember when he was beat backpost by Johnston?). Just saying a guy like this is a liability when a Belgium or Croatia only need one chance to punish you. I do not feel comfortable at all with him anchoring a backline. 

I mean, he’s the best we’ve got after Vitoria. If it’s down to Henry, Waterman or Macnaughton starting in a World Cup it’s obviously Henry all day. 
 

Sure he makes the odd mental error but his upside is unmatched on our back line. When he’s on he’s incredible. That’s been rare but at least you can say it’s possible - unlike the others. 

[Bison44]

If we are talking about things we are not comfortable with, I am having nightmares about Debruyne and Modric slicing our midfield up and Borjan facing about 20 shots a game.  

[Lansdude]

19 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

If we are talking about things we are not comfortable with, I am having nightmares about Debruyne and Modric slicing our midfield up and Borjan facing about 20 shots a game.  

This is why we need to clog up the midfield and force the play to the wings. If we run a two man midfield they'll pass around us in the middle like pylons and our CBs have no chance of stopping their last couple passers, not to mention the distance shooting opportunities they'll get. Just make it hard as possible for their midfields to operate. Then they have to stay honest on the wings and respect our speed. David is going to get fouled like nuts trying to hold the ball up!

[Bigandy]

4 hours ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Atiba for me is the only "brotherhood" player who gets a pass to be on this squad -- especially since he was only out due to injury, is still a capable player and is still playing at a high level. Oso might have a spot as well, but I have no idea if he's healthy enough.

Kaye and Henry? C'mon, people. Both have been pitiful for us. Henry is in by default because of the Kennedy injury, but honestly, I would have taken Waterman or Cornelius if it came down to it.

As for Kaye, not only has he not played much recently, he has been very poor when healthy. Similar to Henry, he can't seem to hold down a squad spot in MLS. For me, that sets off alarm bells.

Ugbo is in Ligue 1 playing for a mid-table side. The competition is steep, and while he has not been playing well, he still hasn't been given a lot of minutes by Herdman despite always showing up when called. Imo, he deserves a spot on the squad - no question. 

Brym and Fraser have a long way to go. So many other players should be considered first at this point. However, that could always change. 

I get a bit frustrated that lots of the posts talk about who doesn’t deserve to be in the squad, but no one ever says who their replacement should be.  I’ve asked UT several times for names of players who would replace the guys he’s so negative on but he never gives an answer.  Can you tell us which player replaces hutch, oso, Kaye, Henry and ugbo?  

if we drop hutch oso and Kaye and you also say Fraser isn’t good, who’s left? Guys like  chouniere, Nelson and tiebert?   Surely you are not advocating for us to take that caliber of player?  
 

after Henry, should we take Mcnaughton or James?   Surely not

after ugbo and brym, who would you take  akinola?  Surely not  

as for brym and Fraser, we can all tell you which players take their spots. They are unlikely to be on the squad so you can’t claim that they get brotherhood treatment when they are getting dropped most likely.  
 

I know I’m quite direct and confrontational with this post and I hope it’s not personal. but it’s easy to point out the faults of our players, it’s a lot harder to provide better solutions. If you provide names to replace these guys, we can discuss what that looks like and have a fan forum debate on different opinions.  UT if you have solutions, I’d love to hear them too? 

[CanadaFan123]

23 minutes ago, Lansdude said:

This is why we need to clog up the midfield and force the play to the wings. If we run a two man midfield they'll pass around us in the middle like pylons and our CBs have no chance of stopping their last couple passers, not to mention the distance shooting opportunities they'll get. Just make it hard as possible for their midfields to operate. Then they have to stay honest on the wings and respect our speed. David is going to get fouled like nuts trying to hold the ball up!

Yep and when you put it like that it makes me think of away matches against Mexico and the USA. That’s the way we’ll play from the start - no doubt about it for me.
 

When you think about it like that as well it makes you think we’ll see Wotherspoon called. Out and out wingers won’t be used unless we’re trailing. 

[cornerkick]

2 hours ago, Saviola7 said:

Hi all,

 

I was looking for a Canada World Cup song/video (in the line of "Football's Coming Home") and I couldn't find one. I therefore set some scenes to the Arkells "Years in the Making" and I came out of lurking for 10 years (!) to share it:

 

 

Hope you enjoy it. Still can't believe we actually qualified.

Nice video montage!  I find the song to be way more fitting than the Beatles cover TSN is using...

[Ally McCoist]

Underrated channel.

[DeRo_Is_King]

5 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Can you tell us which player replaces hutch, oso, Kaye, Henry and ugbo?  

I'm not saying we can replace most of these players. I understand Henry makes it no matter what at this point because of the Kennedy injury. I never said we shouldn't take Hutch, Oso or Ugbo if all are healthy. 

However, I do think it's possible to replace Kaye, even if it's with someone in a different position. No reason for the Choiniere hate. I think he could very well be a replacement for Kaye. Or maybe you add another wing back like ZBG. Corbeanu seems to be on the bubble for a lot of people, but he could take that roster spot as well. And even if there was no Kaye, we'd still have Hutch, Eustaquio, Oso, Kone, Piette and Wotherspoon as options in the middle. 

I doubt Fraser and Brym make it regardless. 

[DeRo_Is_King]

6 hours ago, Sal333 said:

He was subbed off because he was hurt.

Who would you invite instead of him? MacNaughton?

Again, he was also booked early in that match.

And no. I'm not saying you replace him with MacNaughton. I understand we are so think at CB, he will be in the squad at this point. But that does scare the hell out of me if he actually sees the field.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Many here are missing the point: you can't sustain any team, club or country, on loyalty and brotherhood. It is just a seasonal marketing campaign. In any case, I can tell you there quite a few managers out there doing Sparta/300/Winston Churchill beaches speeches and their teams fail in the end regardless. Most in fact.

Herdman's death ground speech, from Sun Tzu--well my kid who studies engineering was reading the Sun Tzu's Art of War last September and explained some of the chapters to me, read me a few of the ideas. Made me think of some battle scenarios in Ukraine. It is not like Herdman is doing a doctorate on Sun Tzu. I thanked my son and suggested he read Clausewitz next, he said it was on his list. 

The point is that it is unsustainable to rely on loyalty or make it a top criteria. But the point, as I already said in previous posts, is that when you get to having a core in top leagues and you have more choices of players at a top level, which is the goal according to Herdman, the loyalty card you got punched a few call-ups ago does not get you a free matcha latte next time up.

So it's childish, yes, because more managers fail with the battleground brotherhood mambo jambo than those who succeed. In the end all I want is to have a technically skilled manager --including people and psychological skills-- who can get a group of players to perform at a high level and get results.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Sal333]

4 hours ago, Ally McCoist said:

Underrated channel.

Jeeze, these two guys are unabashed fan boys and they're not even Canadian.

[DeRo_Is_King]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Many here are missing the point: you can't sustain any team, club or country, on loyalty and brotherhood. It is just a seasonal marketing campaign. In any case, I can tell you there quite a few managers out there doing Sparta/300/Winston Churchill beaches speeches and their teams fail in the end regardless. Most in fact.

Mostly agree with this. Chemistry is important, but form and quality are as well. We will never get better if we don't change personnel from time to time. If a guy has been out of form for months or years and is with Unattached FC getting no minutes, how does that make us any different to the Canada from five to 10 years ago?

We are trying to improve, and unfortunately, players who can't adapt probably shouldn't be called. That isn't to say you can't appreciate their contributions or be proud of the great performances they had. It's just a natural progression. 

Edit: I bet if you asked a guy who knew he was out of form, not getting minutes and not being able to stick with a club whether he feels he should be selected based on merit, he'd say "no." A lot of athletes can be pretty pragmatic about their careers. Not going to name names, but a few years ago, I had a conversation with a career NHLer who had recently retired but was still young enough to play in my opinion. When I mentioned the idea, he was a lot less sure about it than I was. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by DeRo_Is_King

[Fresh Prince of MTL]

9 hours ago, Saviola7 said:

Hi all,

 

I was looking for a Canada World Cup song/video (in the line of "Football's Coming Home") and I couldn't find one. I therefore set some scenes to the Arkells "Years in the Making" and I came out of lurking for 10 years (!) to share it:

 

 

Hope you enjoy it. Still can't believe we actually qualified.

Great job on this, perfect thing to wake up to on gameday today!

[TGAA_Star]

Everyone is predicting their brackets not only on ESPN FC but on the Telegraph which is another English show and on that show they basically don't have Canada coming out of Group F. General consensus with Canada finishing last in the group.

[Bigandy]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Many here are missing the point: you can't sustain any team, club or country, on loyalty and brotherhood. It is just a seasonal marketing campaign. In any case, I can tell you there quite a few managers out there doing Sparta/300/Winston Churchill beaches speeches and their teams fail in the end regardless. Most in fact.

Herdman's death ground speech, from Sun Tzu--well my kid who studies engineering was reading the Sun Tzu's Art of War last September and explained some of the chapters to me, read me a few of the ideas. Made me think of some battle scenarios in Ukraine. It is not like Herdman is doing a doctorate on Sun Tzu. I thanked my son and suggested he read Clausewitz next, he said it was on his list. 

The point is that it is unsustainable to rely on loyalty or make it a top criteria. But the point, as I already said in previous posts, is that when you get to having a core in top leagues and you have more choices of players at a top level, which is the goal according to Herdman, the loyalty card you got punched a few call-ups ago does not get you a free matcha latte next time up.

So it's childish, yes, because more managers fail with the battleground brotherhood mambo jambo than those who succeed. In the end all I want is to have a technically skilled manager --including people and psychological skills-- who can get a group of players to perform at a high level and get results.

i don’t think we are missing the point. Im saying that your claim is debatable but mostly irrelevant because I don’t believe canada is doing loyalty at the expense of picking better players. When David became available we put him on the squad. Same for Ugbo. Same for kone. Same for Kennedy. Same for Buchanan. When corbeanu zbg and Cornelius werent the best option, they got dropped.  Brym and Fraser were in and out of the squad. 
If ferdi came to canada he’d be on the squad.  There just is no player who is better for the team than the ones that will be selected.  We may disagree with the selections but all our core guys deserve spots so it’s not a loyalty thing.   If any core guys don’t make it, then it’s proof that it’s not a loyalty debate   

Henry on face value may seem like a brotherhood thing. But he offers value in a way that no other cb can.  He’s there on merit if he makes the cut based on this preseason. 
 

kaye could seem like a brotherhood thing but we have no other option at cm.  Maybe choiniere and I’m open to that debate. I take experience, team cohesion, tactical understanding over choiniere.  
 

[PastPros]

Opta Analyst's Oliver Hopkins picking Canada to finish 2nd:

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/11/world-cup-2022-group-f-preview-and-predictions/

Edited November 11, 2022 by PastPros

[Bison44]

What have people said for decades?? Canada lacks the culture, the winning attitude, the mind set etc.  A new manager comes in,,,"i'm going to change the culture..blah blah."   We arent the locker room and we can be skeptical, but if its team chemistry..ie "brotherhood" or pizza parties at jaimie Vardy's house every weekend, if they can make it work and change the attitude of the players who are we to shit on it.  Granted this stuff cant last, but the little brother attitude we have had for decades sure lasted, and hopefully young CPL guys, kids in MLS academies, kids going into NCAA wont have a chip on their shoulder anymore.  We have our own league, teams in Calgary, halifax and Winnipeg, not just the major centers.  Our guys are MLS allstars, World best 11, champs of european leagues and f#ck those guys in bars that would rather cheer for italy/England etc than canada. 

So buy yourself some more CSA merch, reserve your seat on the couch, fill in your sticker book and enjoy the next month.  And get used to it, lets start pulling together, cause its just a warm up, the big show is coming in 2026.  

[Pottsy3]

35 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

What have people said for decades?? Canada lacks the culture, the winning attitude, the mind set etc.  A new manager comes in,,,"i'm going to change the culture..blah blah."   We arent the locker room and we can be skeptical, but if its team chemistry..ie "brotherhood" or pizza parties at jaimie Vardy's house every weekend, if they can make it work and change the attitude of the players who are we to shit on it.  Granted this stuff cant last, but the little brother attitude we have had for decades sure lasted, and hopefully young CPL guys, kids in MLS academies, kids going into NCAA wont have a chip on their shoulder anymore.  We have our own league, teams in Calgary, halifax and Winnipeg, not just the major centers.  Our guys are MLS allstars, World best 11, champs of european leagues and f#ck those guys in bars that would rather cheer for italy/England etc than canada. 

So buy yourself some more CSA merch, reserve your seat on the couch, fill in your sticker book and enjoy the next month.  And get used to it, lets start pulling together, cause its just a warm up, the big show is coming in 2026.  

Quoting a co-worker from yesterday, "Thank god Canada and the Netherlands are in separate groups, or I'd have to root against Canada." 

This culture thing is working for the team in the short-term, but we need it to spread even further across the whole fcking country if we want to keep stepping forward as a footballing nation. 

[SthMelbRed]

Why is Rollins such a fucking moron? 

 

 

[VinceA]

9 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

Why is Rollins such a fucking moron? 

 

 

Why are you getting so worked up over a nothingburger?

[Pomoxis]

8 hours ago, PastPros said:

Opta Analyst's Oliver Hopkins picking Canada to finish 2nd:

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/11/world-cup-2022-group-f-preview-and-predictions/

Based on the probabilities shown, they should be expected to finish last. "They’ve got nothing to lose, and their youthful energy could surprise." Mkay.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Pomoxis

[Bigandy]

interesting stuff in the Netherlands squad regarding brotherhood.

Cillessen the best gk is dropped for noppert who is a no name

danjuma is dropped for janssen-spurs flop

karsdorp dropped for Rensch and frimpong in the provisional list who are both young or uncapped.  

all 3 of these top players dropped because they disrupt the team dynamics.   

[Stoppage Time]

10 hours ago, Bigandy said:

kaye could seem like a brotherhood thing but we have no other option at cm.  Maybe choiniere and I’m open to that debate. I take experience, team cohesion, tactical understanding over choiniere.  
 

I would take recent short and medium term player form over all of those things if a given player is not executing tactics or playing at the required level. Work to success with the best or not. 

Which brings up the question of effective depth, and this should be the immediate post WC goal. That begins with a revamped youth program of camps and friendlies with rosters based on careful and extensive scouting. This meshes with the goal to get as many players as possible at the top level.