General Discussion on CMNT

[Shway]

The last guys that were brought in were already apart of the program. @El Hombreyou only listed 2 new guys in Kone & Kolesho. 

The “spread thin” is a horrible excuse @El Hombrethat I won’t accept. Our coaching is already ran like a local club team with guys having roles at multiple levels, so we can’t talk about being spread thin, when we continue to do cost cutting measures.

And now as @Corazonhas pointed out and that we are all aware about…we have key guys who are injured, not playing and/or out of form except for maybe a few. 

The state we are in, we might see some guys called in to the WC who rarely appeared at qualifying.

[Corazon]

12 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Interesting analysis.  I was curious as to how we ranked against the other nations, so that's really good to know.

A couple points to offer:

1) I think the CSA is improving, but slowly, so we are still working with a shoe-string budget in some respects.  I think this might be where the CSA could improve.  But it also makes it hard for us to compare ourselves to Mexico and US.

2) So, if we remove them, we are left with comparing ourselves to CR, ES, Honduras and Jamaica.  How many of those nations called in non-domestic players just to have a look-see?  CR, ES and Honduras rely a lot on domestic players, but what I hear most often is not that we should call in more domestic guys but guys over in Europe which is logistically more difficult.  I think there would still be complaints even if we were bringing in the Jayden Nelson/Choiniere/Godinho/Petrasso players (which I thought we did for Gold Cup).

3) I think the most similar to us would be Jamaica who bring a lot of players from the UK.  Unfortunately (for me), they excel in this respect, so what do I know?  Maybe it's cause they're a tire fire?  Can't really explain that one.

With regards to Campagna specifically, there are a couple things working in his favour:

1) He's nearby.  Easy enough to get him a North American flight to wherever the camp is.
2) He's cheap. It's unlikely he's getting per diems (or the same as regular players would get) or appearance fees (or whatever you call them for players who show up).  The more official callups you make, the more expensive it is.

Again, all very valid points.  So I'm not disagreeing at all and it worked for us this qualifying campaign.  Take away the 28 World Cups USA & Mexico have attended, there are still 12 appearances between those other 5 nations.  As money continues to flow into the program, I think there should be realistic opportunities and expectations to bring more than the bare minimum that we do.  We can't rely on a "Golden Generation" forever.  Let's not forget that we were only 3 points (and a large goal differential) away from having to qualify through a playoff.  And not to diminish the incredible run we made this qualification.  But Borjan single handily saved us over 3 points in qualifying.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Corazon

[Sal333]

56 minutes ago, Corazon said:

Valid points.  And I wanted all of those players included but I was just saying there is room for more.  But if you can find me a Nation that has less player pool from the last 12 months, I'd be shocked.  Either way, we are the only aspiring CONCACAF soccer nation doing the minimum.

Canada - 36 players called in past 12 months

Mexico - 55 players called in the past 12 months

Costa Rica - 59 players called in the past 12 months

USA - 61 players called in the past 12 months

El Salvador - 71 players called in the past 12 months

Honduras - 83 players called in the past 12 months

Jamaica - 86 players called in the past 12 months

So Mexico is the closest country to us (from final CONCACAF qualifying round) with 19 more players called in the past 12 months compared to Canada.  I'm not saying that we aren't introducing young talented players.  I'm saying we could be doing more.  Our fellow CONCACAF nations are keeping a pool of players double what Canada is.  Yes, some of those countries are able to play more friendlies than us.  Yes, we won the group with our small player pool.  I just don't see how a few additional players at camp will do us more harm than good.  

So are we logistically handicapped?  In comparison to all other top CONCACAF programs?  As @Shwaymentioned, we logistically are able to include Campagna as a training player every Canada camp.  We are able to call in and pay for several injured Canadian regulars to attend camp even if they're not playing or training.

 

You make good points; however, I think you miss the overall picture.

Herdman - and he has said as much - looked at what he had  and realized the  areas Canada could outclass the other countries would be in team cohesion and tactical flexibility. Doing what the USA or even Mexico did would have weakened that strategy. Considering they topped the region when every expert had them finishing either 4th overall or out of Qatar, I'd say Herdman is vindicated.

Having said that, once this 2022 cycle is complete I expect Herdman to  phase out the older players and start to do what the USA and the other countries did during qualification: audition a slew of up and coming players and start to integrate the best into the national team. And I agree with Herdman's approach. WC qualification was not the time to experiment with young players. The time will be after the end of December 2022. (I hope you noticed what I half jokingly did there?)

Edited September 14, 2022 by Sal333

[El Hombre]

10 minutes ago, Shway said:

The last guys that were brought in were already apart of the program. @El Hombreyou only listed 2 new guys in Kone & Kolesho. 

The “spread thin” is a horrible excuse @El Hombrethat I won’t accept. Our coaching is already ran like a local club team with guys having roles at multiple levels, so we can’t talk about being spread thin, when we continue to do cost cutting measures.

And now as @Corazonhas pointed out and that we are all aware about…we have key guys who are injured, not playing and/or out of form except for maybe a few. 

The state we are in, we might see some guys called in to the WC who rarely appeared at qualifying.

Okay.  So who is your issue with?  Herdman or the CSA?  If it's with the CSA, then I might agree.  

You've gotta use the budget you're given to the best of your abilities.  I don't think calling in every kid who's ever kicked a ball in Europe is the silver bullet that others do.

[Corazon]

16 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

You make good points; however, I think you miss the overall picture.

Herdman - and he has said as much - looked at what he had  and realized the  areas Canada could outclass the other countries would be in team cohesion and tactical flexibility. Doing what the USA or even Mexico did would have weakened that strategy. Considering they topped the region when every expert had them finishing either 4th overall or out of Qatar, I'd say Herdman is vindicated.

Having said that, once this 2022 cycle is complete I expect Herdman to  phase out the older players and start to do what the USA and the other countries did during qualification: audition a slew of up and coming players and start to integrate the best into the national team. And I agree with Herdman's approach. WC qualification was not the time to experiment with young players. The time will be after the end of December 2022. (I hope you noticed what I half jokingly did there?)

Again, I'm not disagreeing with most of what you post.  I do however, hesitate to see how bringing in a player such as Waterman, Mitrovic, Choiniere or Nelson to a qualifying camp as a 24th or 25th player would have weakened our chances of qualifying.  And I 100% agree that I think we will see a handful of players immediately and gradually phased out of the program based on age and form of play.  My biggest concern is that we are essentially an injury or two away in a couple positions from having to rely on players who have rarely (if at all) trained with, let alone played with our current group of players.

I don't want to make a big deal out of nothing because it's worked out well to date but just something I've noticed that other aspiring 'Footballing" Nations do that we don't.  Also, a small, tight-knit group worked out for Qatar qualifying but lets not forget that a small player pool (among many, many other variables) failed for 20 of the previous 21 World Cups.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Corazon

[rkomar]

Personally, I think you owe it to dual national players to not cap them if you don't think they have much chance of playing after that.  Capping them and then putting them on the shelf would be a shitty thing to do.  Not only would it piss off the players that got shafted, I think it would make others in that position leery of picking our side.  Treating the players with respect is the best long-term strategy for all.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

European squads coming thick and fast now.

For once, for no real rational reason, it would be nice to know our squad before almost every other one in the world.

[P-O]

Why is it soooo long!

[jhoops__]

Any minute now…

[Kadenge]

35 minutes ago, P-O said:

Why is it soooo long!

the CSA fax machine jammed while transmitting the paperwork for Tom Holmes.. Earl Cochrane is on it...stand by

[Floortom]

We do this literally every single window. Clearly it’s deliberate (for whatever reason). There should be no surprise at this point. 

[Sal333]

11 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

the CSA fax machine jammed while transmitting the paperwork for Tom Holmes.. Earl Cochrane is on it...stand by

Fax machine?! I think you meant the carrier pigeon flew into a skyscraper's window, bumped its head and got amnesia.

[frmr]

Do we have a time for the release?

[Vasi]

3 minutes ago, frmr said:

Do we have a time for the release?

All I have seen on twitter from AGR is "afternoon" 

It's so shameful how incompetent this organization is. 

[canuckgbp]

 

[Sal333]

12 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

 

Hopefully the players don't go on strike again like they did the last time this kid was included in the squad.

On a side note, wouldn't it be hysterical if he developed to the same level as a Davies and David and decided to play for the maple leaf.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Sal333

[El Hombre]

Other than satisfying some keyboard warriors, why do we need to release the squad early?  What's the advantage here?

Personally, with Osorio training yesterday, I'd prefer that it be clear whether or not he can come before releasing a squad.

[Corazon]

6 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Other than satisfying some keyboard warriors, why do we need to release the squad early?  What's the advantage here?

Personally, with Osorio training yesterday, I'd prefer that it be clear whether or not he can come before releasing a squad.

Yes, but that's what provisional squads are for.  Players drop off National Team rosters before games/tournaments all the time due to injury, illness, personal reasons.  If it was an extended roster, you don't need a replacement.  Or if you need a replacement, like every other country does, you call in a replacement player. 

I'll provide some examples.  And you could do this at every international window.

Example 1 - Brazil released their roster last week I believe, maybe even the week before.  Alex Sandro had to back out with injury.  Gabriel Maghalaes from Arsenal was called in as his replacement.

Example 2 Argentina released their 32 man roster two weeks ago.  This week both Nicholas Gonzalez & Exequiel Palacios backed out injured.  Manager Scaloni also dropped Juan Musso & Lucas Martinez to bring his final squad to 28 men.

Herdman allegedly reached out to 35 players within the past couple of weeks for an initial squad.  I'm sure we won't see 35 players and I'm sure there are many on standby that would accept the call up.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Corazon

[Sal333]

2 minutes ago, Corazon said:

Yes, but that's what provisional squads are for.  Players drop off National Team rosters before games/tournaments all the time.  If it was an extended roster, you don't need a replacement.  Or if you need a replacement, like every other country does, you call in a replacement player.  

Herdman allegedly reached out to 35 players within the past couple of weeks for an initial squad.  I'm sure we won't see 35 players and I'm sure there are many on standby that would accept the call up.

Also, it's not like most of the squad will be a huge surprise. we basically know who most of the squad players will be. The anticipation is for the Koleoshos, Holmes, Jebbisons and Corbeanus. We want to know if they're on the squad.

[El Hombre]

3 minutes ago, Corazon said:

Yes, but that's what provisional squads are for.  Players drop off National Team rosters before games/tournaments all the time due to injury, illness, personal reasons.  If it was an extended roster, you don't need a replacement.  Or if you need a replacement, like every other country does, you call in a replacement player.  

Herdman allegedly reached out to 35 players within the past couple of weeks for an initial squad.  I'm sure we won't see 35 players and I'm sure there are many on standby that would accept the call up.

Yeah, figured that would come up.  We don't do provisional rosters because that means you expect to revise decisions later and we don't make mistakes.  Unlike the Americans and their "amendments", we get it right the first time, dammit!

But even then, what purpose does that serve other than to give a small set of people something to talk about?

[Corazon]

Just now, El Hombre said:

Yeah, figured that would come up.  We don't do provisional rosters because that means you expect to revise decisions later and we don't make mistakes.  Unlike the Americans and their "amendments", we get it right the first time, dammit!

But even then, what purpose does that serve other than to give a small set of people something to talk about?

Sounds like you were prepared 😆

I updated my comment to provide a couple great examples of how a couple of Average National Programs run their rosters.

[Corazon]

2 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Yeah, figured that would come up.  We don't do provisional rosters because that means you expect to revise decisions later and we don't make mistakes.  Unlike the Americans and their "amendments", we get it right the first time, dammit!

But even then, what purpose does that serve other than to give a small set of people something to talk about?

I got an even better one

What purpose does it serve to hold out on releasing an extended roster?  Or what purpose does it serve to be the last to drop the roster?

Knowing how detailed Herdman is, I'm sure there is a reason but it's not like its hurt other countries successes.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

15 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Other than satisfying some keyboard warriors, why do we need to release the squad early?  What's the advantage here?

Personally, with Osorio training yesterday, I'd prefer that it be clear whether or not he can come before releasing a squad.

Can see that point of view, however, keyboard warriors included, it is a spectator sport at the end of the day.  The more profesional you look, in theory, the more spectators (including their $$$) have interest in your program. 

[Fullback]

22 minutes ago, Corazon said:

Yes, but that's what provisional squads are for.  Players drop off National Team rosters before games/tournaments all the time due to injury, illness, personal reasons.  If it was an extended roster, you don't need a replacement.  Or if you need a replacement, like every other country does, you call in a replacement player. 

I'll provide some examples.  And you could do this at every international window.

Example 1 - Brazil released their roster last week I believe, maybe even the week before.  Alex Sandro had to back out with injury.  Gabriel Maghalaes from Arsenal was called in as his replacement.

Example 2 Argentina released their 32 man roster two weeks ago.  This week both Nicholas Gonzalez & Exequiel Palacios backed out injured.  Manager Scaloni also dropped Juan Musso & Lucas Martinez to bring his final squad to 28 men.

Herdman allegedly reached out to 35 players within the past couple of weeks for an initial squad.  I'm sure we won't see 35 players and I'm sure there are many on standby that would accept the call up.

Example 3 - England just released theirs a couple of hours ago

[canuckgbp]

I don’t really care that we are last. The frustrating part is that they can’t even give us a date and time when it will be released. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by canuckgbp