CPL General

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

15 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

So, FCEd to CPL!

An article on the NASL development:

http://www.espnfc.us/north-american-soccer-league/story/3258359/judge-denies-nasls-request-for-injunction-to-regain-division-ii-status

https://the11.ca/fc-edmonton-owner-fath-hopeful-nasl-can-still-salvage-div-2-status-after-u-s-court-defeat/

...But, Fath said he would not close the door on participating in NASL for 2018 if the league finds a way to continue.

“I’d really hope that the USSF can take the next steps and meet with NASL. After all, the NASL has done so much for pro soccer over the last several years. I am hopeful we can find a way forward and continue on as a Division-2 league.”...

Given the court ruling didn't close down the antitrust angle and only related to the temporary injuction maybe there is still scope for an out of court settlement to be reached that allows both parties to save face. Seriously doubt it though.

[dyslexic nam]

I won't read the tea leaves too much, but with no CPL in 2018 I wouldn't expect Fath to say anything differently.  Given the two potential options of shuttering things for a year and then trying to move into CPL at year 1 or staying in NASL for a year to keep operations going and then making the jump, the former option makes far more sensible to me.  Status quo in 2018 maintains fan engagement, doesn't impact staff employment, doesn't mess with stadium/team revenues, etc.  Of course, he may never make the jump, may fold, etc., but in terms of the immediate decisions for next year I don't think a possible commitment to NASL in 2018 in any way downplays the possibility of a jump to CPL thereafter.  

I would not read too much into what Fath says publicly at this point since he is trying to navigate waters that are both complicated and unknown.  At this point he still has a team in NASL, and the league is not yet dead/d3.  Thus I would never expect a prudent businessman to make statements that would close the door (or even undermine) that option.  But I similarly wouldn't attribute those statements to anything more than a good degree of caution about his future interests. 

[shermanator]

 

 

[Bison44]

Good for Nik!  More pros should speak out. 

I do have a little something positive that happened to me.  I was in a Boston Pizza in small town Sask during the first leg of Vancouvers playoff.  There was the usual 6 TVs with sports on, but it was half world series and half MLS playoffs.  I was shocked.   The guy I was with had to ask them to put the sunday night NFL game on.  AND THEY TURNED OFF THE WORLD SERIES, NOT MLS.  I really think the CPL has a chance, things are changing at the grass roots (or chicken wing) level.  

[Northvansteve]

On 11/3/2017 at 2:10 PM, harrycoyster said:

There was 100% a stigma playing soccer over hockey/baseball/football growing up in Maple Ridge. A lot of that has to do with soccer being the most popular sport for girls and less popular for boys. The Caps have gone along way towards breaking that stigma...but I can guarantee the "Why don'tcha play a man's sport?" shit I dealt with growing up isn't completely gone.

I've coached boys soccer in the Vancouver area for more than decade. I never once heard this. On the contrary, we had many soccer/hockey and soccer/football players on my teams.   

[ironcub14]

13 hours ago, Northvansteve said:

I've coached boys soccer in the Vancouver area for more than decade. I never once heard this. On the contrary, we had many soccer/hockey and soccer/football players on my teams.   

North Vancouver and Maple Ridge seem like two pretty distinct areas within Greater Vancouver to me. I can see how the two of you would have had differing experiences. I think Larry Walker is from Maple Ridge, I can see how it would be a lot more pro-baseball and football there compared to North Van.

I do think that the 3 Canadian MLS clubs have been crucial in bringing a cultural overhaul of the mainstream attitude towards soccer in Canada. Even just 12 years ago, when the Big 3 were in USL instead of MLS, I think many of us would agree that the mainstream still looked at soccer as relatively foreign, not something really a part of Canadian mainstream culture. It's completely different now, on TSN, Sportsnet, around the Big 3, extending around the Big 3 as well across BC, Ontario and Quebec, around Edmonton and Ottawa, and very soon, all across Canada.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

15 hours ago, shermanator said:

Think he is missing the point that playing time in a competitive sport is something you earn and isn't something you are given. What we really need is more CMNT prospects that are good enough to break into these teams, because plenty of young Canadian players are being given the opportunity to do so, but the likes of Raheem Edwards or Marco Bustos haven't been able to make the big break through yet. Hopefully losing two USL B teams and only having affiliates instead isn't going to put a significant dent in that pathway in the years ahead. From a purely CMNT standpoint having three rebranded B team type operations from the MLS franchises in CanPL would be ideal and it's too bad Bob Young and co see things otherwise. We would probably have had a 2018 launch announcment, if the MLS franchises and Ticats were on the same page and pushing in the same direction, but the history of Canadian pro soccer is filled with investor egos getting in the way of common sense solutions.

Edited November 6, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Rheo]

To try and spare the many response posts to come, it's possible common sense might be the CPL would be branded as minor league with  MLS minor leaguers, not be able to grab a foothold both with fans, the media or with sponsors and fold in a relatively short time.  

Not trying to discourage discussion but it's been discussed numerous times over the now dead thread and this one.  But seriously I wish they would announce something so we don't have to reargue the same old crap endlessly lol

Edited November 6, 2017 by Rheo

[matty]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Think he is missing the point that playing time in a competitive sport is something you earn and isn't something you are given....

Roster rules

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Think he is missing the point that playing time in a competitive sport is something you earn and isn't something you are given. What we really need is more CMNT prospects that are good enough to break into these teams, because plenty of young Canadian players are being given the opportunity to do so, but the likes of Raheem Edwards or Marco Bustos haven't been able to make the big break through yet. Hopefully losing two USL B teams and only having affiliates instead isn't going to put a significant dent in that pathway in the years ahead. From a purely CMNT standpoint having three rebranded B team type operations from the MLS franchises in CanPL would be ideal and it's too bad Bob Young and co see things otherwise. We would probably have had a 2018 launch announcment, if the MLS franchises and Ticats were on the same page and pushing in the same direction, but the history of Canadian pro soccer is filled with investor egos getting in the way of common sense solutions.

Obviously Nik is talking about how players like himself have to travel halfway across the world at the age of 18 just to get a chance to play. Once they get the chance they have to earn it. Nik knows that more than anybody. He has actually lived that life. Ledgerwood has worked his ass off for his career and Canadian soccer. I cant believe you think that one of Canada’s most experienced and hard working players doesn’t understand the concept of earning a chance to play. The guy is an inspiration for all Canadian players. He just doesn’t want other players like him to have to go through what he did.

Edited November 6, 2017 by BenFisk'sBiggestFan

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There are plenty of Canadians being given a chance to play in Canada by MLS teams at the moment, so the travel half way around the world thing no longer applies for players that are top CMNT prospects. The reason that Osorio, Ricketts and Edwards didn't make TFC's starting XI is that they are marginal talents in MLS terms, not because they are Canadian. We are not going to get very far in World Cup qualification terms until we have a roster of regular MLS starter quality national team players at a minimum. Hopefully we will get there eventually. It would be good if CanPL were geared towards what is best for the development of future national team players that are in the three elite academy systems based in Canada rather than the prime concern being to keep the marketing boys happy on the "minor league" angle. If the player budgets are only going to be a fraction of what MLS is paying it is going to be minor league compared to MLS and everybody is soon going to be well aware of that.

Edited November 6, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[harrycoyster]

2 hours ago, Rheo said:

But seriously I wish they would announce something so we don't have to reargue the same old crap endlessly lol

We'll get official news in 60-90 days, as was announced in March, May, June, August, and October. 

[Rheo]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

We'll get official news in 60-90 days, as was announced in March, May, June, August, and October. 

Of 2017, 2016, 2015

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

19 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

We'll get official news in 60-90 days, as was announced in March, May, June, August, and October. 

A cynic might even suggest that is all still very much an ongoing call for investors. Nothing wrong with that as you need to get the word out somehow, but there is a limit on how long it can drag on for. I suspect they have another year or so before the 60-90 day routine wears thin for the people that actually matter in terms of writing all the cheques and approving the sanctioning. If they can't get it launched by spring 2019 then some of the fundamental assumptions on how to proceed would no doubt be re-examined because they would be holed beneath the waterline in credibility terms by that point. Looks like they have a reasonable shot at it, if Edmonton is about to fall neatly into place for them.

[Kent]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

From a purely CMNT standpoint having three rebranded B team type operations from the MLS franchises in CanPL would be ideal and it's too bad Bob Young and co see things otherwise. We would probably have had a 2018 launch announcment, if the MLS franchises and Ticats were on the same page and pushing in the same direction

Why did you wait until now (when it's too late) to bring this up!!!! You had so many opportunities to post this view the last couple years! That was a big missed opportunity for you.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

And it's the first time Shermanator has come on here highlighting the lack of playing time for Canadians in MLS?

[Kent]

40 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The reason that Osorio, Ricketts and Edwards didn't make TFC's starting XI is that they are marginal talents in MLS terms, not because they are Canadian.

For Osorio, that's arguable, for Ricketts it's true, but I think it's harsh to call Edwards a marginal talent in MLS terms. He is just unlucky to be stuck behind the best left back/wingback in the league. Morrow is one of 3 nominees for defender of the year. Edwards has been phenomenal when he has played.

As for the argument of having to earn your place, yadda yadda. Sure that's true, but how many Central Americans would be earning their place in MLS if they didn't have domestic pro soccer leagues in their country? We are hosting foreign leagues (I'm including all of MLS, NASL, and USL in that). USA is ahead of us in player development, so the bar is set too high at the moment. Every other country has their own bar for what it takes to be a pro player domestically, whether that is the top division or a lower division. We are working against a more advanced soccer nation's bar, and it's drowning our potential players.

[Kent]

2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

And it's the first time Shermanator has come on here highlighting the lack of playing time for Canadians in MLS?

Fair point.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

17 minutes ago, Kent said:

...it's harsh to call Edwards a marginal talent in MLS terms. He is just unlucky to be stuck behind the best left back/wingback in the league...

Think and very much hope he'll get there eventually. A lot of young players get a run in the first team for a few games and look very good until other teams have seen enough of them in action to figure them out and learn how to close them down. Think that's where he is at right now and he still needs to raise his game from what we saw against El Salvador for example, to make the big breakthrough to being an MLS regular but he has definitely shown that he has many of the skills needed to succeed and isn't just token domestic roster content in a Andrea Lombardo, Gabe Gala or Joey Melo sort of way. Over time the young Canadian players that are getting a shot at it with TFC are getting ever closer to being the genuine article. Jay Chapman is also not that far off, in my opinion, and might benefit from an expansion draft at some point. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

There are plenty of Canadians being given a chance to play in Canada by MLS teams at the moment, so the travel half way around the world thing no longer applies for players that are top CMNT prospects. The reason that Osorio, Ricketts and Edwards didn't make TFC's starting XI is that they are marginal talents in MLS terms, not because they are Canadian. We are not going to get very far in World Cup qualification terms until we have a roster of regular MLS starter quality national team players at a minimum. Hopefully we will get there eventually. It would be good if CanPL were geared towards what is best for the development of future national team players that are in the three elite academy systems based in Canada rather than the prime concern being to keep the marketing boys happy on the "minor league" angle. If the player budgets are only going to be a fraction of what MLS is paying it is going to be minor league compared to MLS and everybody is soon going to be well aware of that.

 

23 minutes ago, Kent said:

For Osorio, that's arguable, for Ricketts it's true, but I think it's harsh to call Edwards a marginal talent in MLS terms. He is just unlucky to be stuck behind the best left back/wingback in the league. Morrow is one of 3 nominees for defender of the year. Edwards has been phenomenal when he has played.

As for the argument of having to earn your place, yadda yadda. Sure that's true, but how many Central Americans would be earning their place in MLS if they didn't have domestic pro soccer leagues in their country? We are hosting foreign leagues (I'm including all of MLS, NASL, and USL in that). USA is ahead of us in player development, so the bar is set too high at the moment. Every other country has their own bar for what it takes to be a pro player domestically, whether that is the top division or a lower division. We are working against a more advanced soccer nation's bar, and it's drowning our potential players.

Ricketts is a marginal talent in MLS? He scored 7 goals in 1003 minutes this year. That puts him on par with Plata (2318), Solignac (2153), Quioto (1281), Bunbury (1279) and Movsisyan (1469) as forwards who scored 7 goals. There was only 25 other forwards who scored more than 7 goals this year in a 22 team league. I don't think he's marginal especially when you consider he's starting behind a guy who scored 15.

[matty]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

There are plenty of Canadians being given a chance to play in Canada by MLS teams at the moment, so the travel half way around the world thing no longer applies for players that are top CMNT prospects.

This I agree with it's getting better as I've said like a dozen times to @SpecialK (I think it's him)

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The reason that Osorio, Ricketts and Edwards didn't make TFC's starting XI is that they are marginal talents in MLS terms, not because they are Canadian. We are not going to get very far in World Cup qualification terms until we have a roster of regular MLS starter quality national team players at a minimum.

I would disagree that Osorio is a marginal talent in MLS. He's very much proved he can hang in this league and largely lost his sport due to TFC signing high value non-Canadian talent, possibly because teams don't think MLS talent can keep up with Euro talent.

[matty]

I posted this in TV contract but figured I'd post it here in case some of you avoid that thread https://www.fool.ca/2017/11/05/dazns-failure-highlights-why-cord-cutting-is-not-a-serious-threat-to-cable-companies/

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Something to bear in mind is that the MLS salary cap means that there is a bigger gap in quality between regular starters and fringe players than you would see on a top European team where teams try to create genuine competition for starting places and even do things like rotations in selection terms. After Giovinco and Altidore have hoovered up all the money there's not much left for the third guy in the pecking order and you get somebody that's OK but nothing stellar (i.e. marginal). We need more Cyle Larins that do so well as regular starters that they draw interest from top European teams. When we have a roster full of players of that quality, Gold Cups and hex tournaments will draw way more interest from a passionate and large national team fan base and we'll be well on the way to being a soccer nation as well as a hockey one in a Czech Republic or Sweden sort of way. Just because the MLS pathway isn't forming a big part of a production line to that outcome right now, doesn't mean that it won't start to some time reasonably soon. The optimal way to add CanPL to the mix would be synergistic rather than at cross-purposes.

Edited November 6, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[matty]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Just because the MLS pathway isn't a big part of the production line to that outcome right now, doesn't mean that it won't start to be some time reasonably soon and the way to add CanPL to the mix should be synergistic rather than at cross-purposes.

And the CPL can help the MLS teams with traditional loans rather than being part of their system. The CPL would already help developent the MLS kids (should MLS be willing) by being a domestic league they can loan to outside of transfer windows.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, matty said:

And the CPL can help the MLS teams with traditional loans rather than being part of their system...

Maybe, but they'll still be obligated to have some sort of USL operation. I'd rather see the best Whitecaps prospects playing their home games somewhere in BC or Alberta rather than in Fresno when they get their first pro contract.