CPL General

[Rheo]

PB has said they have a business plan that they believe can work without being reliant on TV money and 5k in attendance.  I'm going to take their word for it.  I'm going to assume they're a lot smarter than I am and have done a hell of a lot more market research than I have

I don't see why a gate based league can't work.  The CHL has been run that way (I know they have a TV deal but given the number of teams the revenue per team can't be that great, did a quick search but couldn't find the financial deals)  Besides it's not going to be the only revenue stream.  Just seems like they plan for that to be the primary one.

[Macksam]

20 hours ago, Mike Thompson said:

Promotion/Relegation is at least 10-15 years away for CPL

I just don't see us having a division 2 anytime soon

Decent conclusion.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Macksam

[Macksam]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

I like the way CPL will work closely with U-Sports. You have to wonder how much and how many talent got wasted or got missed because those kids had nowhere to go. MLS ignore the entire system which is quite massive

49 teams divided in 4 conferences (roughly 1000 players a year)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_Sports_men's_soccer

Imagine 5% of them being elite players...that's 50 players.

The Canadian pyramid is like a bucket full of holes leaking water. Glad that CPL will plug some of those holes. I'm very optimistic that the league will be more talented than people think

 

Yes, I believe the talent level will catch a lot of people by surprise.

1 hour ago, matty said:

I'm not saying tv money will rain from the sky (ad money might get a big boost from it) but have said a gate league makes no sense in today's landscape,

How so?

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Macksam said:

Yes, I believe the talent level will catch a lot of people by surprise.

Also by elites, I mean the following:

A U sports player good enough to start on a D3 squad and most likely doing both U-Sports and D3 in the same year. We have to take into account that lots of the U-Sports guy know full well making it to MLS is a long shot and that USL is usually a dead end. So it makes sense for those guys with BAs, Masters and PhDs to not bother persevering in D3 when their diploma gives the access to a high paying jobs.

However, CPL changes that and gives incentives to persevere knowing that they can perhaps make a living on their passion and it isn't a long shot anymore.

[harrycoyster]

59 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I don't see why a gate based league can't work.  The CHL has been run that way (I know they have a TV deal but given the number of teams the revenue per team can't be that great, did a quick search but couldn't find the financial deals)  Besides it's not going to be the only revenue stream.  Just seems like they plan for that to be the primary one.

The CHL has a base salary of $400 a week, in season. The salary cap was around $500,000 in 2013. That's basically the USL model...not that there is anything wrong with that, but the USL model gets you a USL level of play, probably worse given we wouldn't have a NCAA-sized pool of cheap, domestic players to choose from who can play at said level.

[harrycoyster]

32 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Also by elites, I mean the following:

A U sports player good enough to start on a D3 squad and most likely doing both U-Sports and D3 in the same year. We have to take into account that lots of the U-Sports guy know full well making it to MLS is a long shot and that USL is usually a dead end. So it makes sense for those guys with BAs, Masters and PhDs to not bother persevering in D3 when their diploma gives the access to a high paying jobs.

However, CPL changes that and gives incentives to persevere knowing that they can perhaps make a living on their passion and it isn't a long shot anymore.

I get it, but you aren't going to find many players in U Sports that are capable of making a USL roster to begin with. Look at the last five winners of the U Sports MVP in Men's Soccer, two play in PDL and the other three are out of the sport after being cut from USL or PDL teams. Henry Moody, who won the MVP in 2014 transferred into U Sports from the NAIA...the fourth tier of American college sports.

This is a nice bit of community outreach, not a realistic player acquisition pipeline.

[matty]

46 minutes ago, Macksam said:

How so?

As we've seen in North America, the leagues that are making cash are doing so thanks to TV and the increase in ad revenue from it. MLS is likely the most dependant of any of the leagues here on gate (80%~) and teams are mostly in the red at the end of the year despite wages being much lower than other leagues and higher attendance than others (which is partly thanks to lower cost tickets).

TV is the be all cure but it helps lower the losses. If MLS had no TV it would likely be in the NASL's shape.

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, matty said:

As we've seen in North America, the leagues that are making cash are doing so thanks to TV and the increase in ad revenue from it. MLS is likely the most dependant of any of the leagues here on gate (80%~) and teams are mostly in the red at the end of the year despite wages being much lower than other leagues and higher attendance than others (which is partly thanks to lower cost tickets).

TV is the be all cure but it helps lower the losses. If MLS had no TV it would likely be in the NASL's shape.

I see your point, but what's the answer? What TV network is going to pay for a completely unproven soccer league when MLS doesn't even do good numbers outside of TFC playoff games? TV deals come from success, success doesn't come from TV deals.

[matty]

17 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I see your point, but what's the answer? What TV network is going to pay for a completely unproven soccer league when MLS doesn't even do good numbers outside of TFC playoff games? TV deals come from success, success doesn't come from TV deals.

I'm not saying it needs to be there year one and never have (that I can remember), I just don't buy that they've got a business plan that doesn't need TV for more than a few years unless they're planning on charging expansion teams several million to join every year or two.

Since you ask I think someone smaller might. GameTV did pick up the Wolfpack (given it's rugby) and TLN is friendly to Canadian soccer, is in 5million homes and has been trying to bring in new viewers for a while. beIN also agreed to broadcast that Canadian basketball league (they weren't paying but still were showing it). Scoring 15k TV viewers might be alright for them and could lead to something bigger. Also local TV, yea it's small but it still gets you into homes.

Streaming is also an option but it can be hard to build a fanbase that way especially if your DIYing it.

All I'm saying is when they're talking about 16 teams in the 200k markets with fancy modular stadiums and TV not being a necessary, something really doesn't add up.

Edited November 2, 2017 by matty

[Macksam]

3 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

I see your point, but what's the answer? What TV network is going to pay for a completely unproven soccer league when MLS doesn't even do good numbers outside of TFC playoff games? TV deals come from success, success doesn't come from TV deals.

It will have to get good numbers first and foremost before any big TV money comes no doubt. However, gaining that television audience might not be so difficult in the end. It is my belief MLS doesn't get strong television ratings because of the fact there is much better quality soccer on TV, the fact Canadian MLS teams play very little Canadian content, and how very few Canadian teams exist. If the quality of soccer is very low (and don't kid yourselves, MLS is very low quality still despite an improvement) and you're not playing domestic talent, why should one be bothered to watch it? No other country has this situation in the world except us. I love this sport to death but if young Canadian talent isn't on display, I'm not watching it, there's literally no reason to. If I want to watch a bunch of foreigners play, Chelsea and Manchester City offer exponentially better ones and they're usually on the same channel at a earlier timeslot. So, having Canadian teams made up of young Canadian talent will change that for me and many others I think.

4 hours ago, matty said:

As we've seen in North America, the leagues that are making cash are doing so thanks to TV and the increase in ad revenue from it. MLS is likely the most dependant of any of the leagues here on gate (80%~) and teams are mostly in the red at the end of the year despite wages being much lower than other leagues and higher attendance than others (which is partly thanks to lower cost tickets).

TV is the be all cure but it helps lower the losses. If MLS had no TV it would likely be in the NASL's shape.

Yes, it should have a presence no doubt, but it will take sometime before anything lucrative comes out of it. Maybe the CPL should be the first league that does that inevitable Netflix live streaming deal.

[matty]

36 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Yes, it should have a presence no doubt, but it will take sometime before anything lucrative comes out of it.

Oh without doubt. We're years from seeing a CFL level TV deal or even half that. But even Local TV would increase ad revenue and jersey deals.

39 minutes ago, Macksam said:

...Maybe the CPL should be the first league that does that inevitable Netflix live streaming deal.

That would be pretty fucking awesome actually. Even if it was just on Canadian Netflix

[dyslexic nam]

5 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

I see your point, but what's the answer? What TV network is going to pay for a completely unproven soccer league when MLS doesn't even do good numbers outside of TFC playoff games? TV deals come from success, success doesn't come from TV deals.

This thinking is part of the reason I keep suggesting CBC.  It showcases Canadian content, it is in every home in Canada with a TV, it isn't purely profit driven, it is supposed to support development of culture (which normally suggests the arts but doesn't exclude sport), and it currently has pretty limited sporting rights since it can't really compete with the dedicated sports channels for big ticket content.  

I know repeating these points won't make it happen, but in my mind it would be such a great partnership for the fledgling CPL that I wish someone would push the idea.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

17 hours ago, Kent said:

Is this about TV again? Nobody thinks TV should be avoided. A lot of us just don't think it's likely that TV money will just rain in from the heavens on day one, and we shouldn't expect that to happen.

...and some of us even question whether Canadian SUM isn't simply an extension of SUM given the backdrop of the joint WC2026 bid. It has only really been Duane Rollins peddling the idea that it has something to do with the launch of a new domestic pro league in high profiles blogs/podcasts and mainstream media terms as far as I am aware and PB has said that a national TV deal are not part of the business plan, because the sports broadcasting market has changed a lot over the last few years? If it's not SUM and World Cup related, it's difficult to see what the CSA have access to otherwise that is worth very much in broadcast rights terms in the absence of the 35 million Mexican-Americans that drive a lot of SUM's finances south of the border.

Overall I'm not sure what to make of CanPL's business plan. When Paul Beirne does the talking it sounds almost small city CHL-like without the development for somebody else angle as there is clearly a sensitivity about that amongst the would be owners, but when John McGrane has had something to say as recently as six months ago it sounds more big budget and direct rival to MLS. I suspect it's still a work in progress and nothing is carved in stone at this point given they still have a lot to do in many of the 10 markets that are expected to get there eventually to even be in a position to launch.

Edited November 3, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[TFC2017]

Just a thought unrelated to what's currently being talked about but what if the homegrown rule was like 'You must have 7 players who are Canadian and U23 in your squad'. Just a thought as it means teams will need to scout younger players who are Canadian. Creates more opportunities to the younger Canadian players, these 7 players will likely have a smaller contract which means the other players on the team will be of higher quality (more money to throw at better players) and keeps the Canadian homegrown aspect as well.  Just an idea that popped into my head, not sure if it'd work though. 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

4 hours ago, TFC2017 said:

Just a thought unrelated to what's currently being talked about but what if the homegrown rule was like 'You must have 7 players who are Canadian and U23 in your squad'. Just a thought as it means teams will need to scout younger players who are Canadian. Creates more opportunities to the younger Canadian players, these 7 players will likely have a smaller contract which means the other players on the team will be of higher quality (more money to throw at better players) and keeps the Canadian homegrown aspect as well.  Just an idea that popped into my head, not sure if it'd work though. 

It’s an idea. But 7 is too many. I think most of us know that the cpl is a Development league at the start. But 7 ties the hands of the teams. I think maybe if they need 2 U23 players that might work. And the rule would have to be reevaluated every couple years.

[ironcub14]

13 hours ago, Macksam said:

It will have to get good numbers first and foremost before any big TV money comes no doubt. However, gaining that television audience might not be so difficult in the end. It is my belief MLS doesn't get strong television ratings because of the fact there is much better quality soccer on TV, the fact Canadian MLS teams play very little Canadian content, and how very few Canadian teams exist. If the quality of soccer is very low (and don't kid yourselves, MLS is very low quality still despite an improvement) and you're not playing domestic talent, why should one be bothered to watch it? No other country has this situation in the world except us. I love this sport to death but if young Canadian talent isn't on display, I'm not watching it, there's literally no reason to. If I want to watch a bunch of foreigners play, Chelsea and Manchester City offer exponentially better ones and they're usually on the same channel at a earlier timeslot. So, having Canadian teams made up of young Canadian talent will change that for me and many others I think.

Yes, it should have a presence no doubt, but it will take sometime before anything lucrative comes out of it. Maybe the CPL should be the first league that does that inevitable Netflix live streaming deal.

I just had to jump in to point out that this is very much a Voyageur echo chamber point of view towards MLS.

Yes, you and I know dozens of people like this... at CanMNT matches, on the Voyageurs forum, on the #CanMNT Twitter, and on the #CanMNT Facebook. And some hardcore Canadian soccer lovers who coach or play at a serious level. But really, that's about it. There's maybe a few hundred people in this whole country who doesn't watch MLS solely or chiefly because they're not playing domestic talent.

Yes, I get you, it sucks, a lot of people bemoan it, but this is not even close to the reason as to why MLS gets little TV viewership. The obvious real reason is the first one you mentioned, that there is much better quality soccer on TV. Everywhere I go to play and to watch soccer, European footy discussion and jerseys still far dominate MLS discussion and jerseys. Let's not kid ourselves. CPL will have nearly the exact same issues that MLS has with the general soccer viewing public.

That said, I still do hope that SN or TSN or CBC or BeIN will see the value of taking on the TV rights. I mean, the number of soccer matches now on these channels compared to just 5 years ago is pretty incredible.

Edited November 3, 2017 by ironcub14

[matty]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...and some of us even question whether Canadian SUM isn't simply an extension of SUM given the backdrop of the joint WC2026 bid. It has only really been Duane Rollins peddling the idea that it has something to do with the launch of a new domestic pro league in high profiles blogs/podcasts and mainstream media terms as far as I am aware and PB has said that a national TV deal are not part of the business plan, because the sports broadcasting market has changed a lot over the last few years? If it's not SUM and World Cup related, it's difficult to see what the CSA have access to otherwise that is worth very much in broadcast rights terms in the absence of the 35 million Mexican-Americans that drive a lot of SUM's finances south of the border.

This issue with sum is an open one but there's been little evidence supporting that large a link between mls and cpl. 

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

 

Overall I'm not sure what to make of CanPL's business plan. When Paul Beirne does the talking it sounds almost small city CHL-like without the development for somebody else angle as there is clearly a sensitivity about that amongst the would be owners, but when John McGrane has had something to say as recently as six months ago it sounds more big budget and direct rival to MLS. I suspect it's still a work in progress and nothing is carved in stone at this point given they still have a lot to do in many of the 10 markets that are expected to get there eventually to even be in a position to launch.

I agree but i havra harder time understanding pb's plan when the actions of owners don't support it (eg building stadiums) but don't understand why owner's are doing what they're doing when tv is missing from the current plan. I don't agree that the plan isn't largely agreed on due to the csa approval.

[matty]

8 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

 

That said, I still do hope that SN or TSN or CBC or BeIN will see the value of taking on the TV rights. I mean, the number of soccer matches now on these channels compared to just 5 years ago is pretty incredible.

I actually hope they do not do bein if they don't have too. The arrival of dazn really downgraded them. They don't have the reach or potential others do.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, matty said:

This issue with sum is an open one but there's been little evidence supporting that large a link between mls and cpl.

The link would be between SUM and the CSA with the CSA getting a slice of the action like the USSF and Mexican federation already do for joining the joint 2026 bid and having three 51% MLS owned teams in Canada. I don't think the CMNT and CanPL provides anything that broadcasters and sponsors are going to go for right now to any huge extent, unfortunately. The El Salvador game was only available by webstream, for example, and that sort of thing suggests having to pay for access rather than getting a rights fee.

[matty]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The link would be between SUM and the CSA with the CSA getting a slice of the action like the USSF and Mexican federation already do for joining the joint 2026 bid and having three 51% MLS owned teams in Canada. I don't think the CMNT and CanPL provides anything that broadcasters and sponsors are going to go for right now to any huge extent, unfortunately. The El Salvador game was only available by webstream, for example, and that sort of thing suggests having to pay for access rather than getting a rights fee.

We've been getting a slice for years already so again the idea of the link is weak atm especially given the lack of involvement between parties over the life of the cpl project.

Cpl does provide a potential audience in cities that are not as well targetted as toronto or vancouver. Which is a big thing. I don't think we'll see the cpl sell tv rights but there might be a similar deal to what nblc had with bein where bein showed them for free but didn't cover the costs of broadcast.

[Rheo]

19 minutes ago, matty said:

I agree but i havra harder time understanding pb's plan when the actions of owners don't support it (eg building stadiums) but don't understand why owner's are doing what they're doing when tv is missing from the current plan.

You assume that there's no TV plan but these guys aren't stupid.  There has to be a plan, we just don't know about it.  All PB has said is that they believe their business plan can succeed without being dependent on TV money and given the way the sports/television market is rapidly changing that's a smart thing.

[ironcub14]

28 minutes ago, matty said:

I actually hope they do not do bein if they don't have too. The arrival of dazn really downgraded them. They don't have the reach or potential others do.

I had BeIN and I have DAZN now, and I thought we made it clear in the DAZN or CPL TV Contract thread, that,

Pretty much 90% I believe of the soccer content that DAZN Canada has right now is through beIN. DAZN Canada signed a sub-license agreement with beIN to be able to show the La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1, UCL, Championship matches rights that beIN owns. The agreement's discussed on DAZN Canada's wiki too.

I don't know why you're so against beIN. I don't like them personally because of its connections to the Miami base of CONCACAF and Traffic, but as a soccer channel in Canada, I think it very much serves a niche.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAZN

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/dazn-sub-licenses-bein-sports-rights-package-in-canada

Edited November 3, 2017 by ironcub14

[matty]

10 minutes ago, Rheo said:

You assume that there's no TV plan but these guys aren't stupid.  There has to be a plan, we just don't know about it.  All PB has said is that they believe their business plan can succeed without being dependent on TV money and given the way the sports/television market is rapidly changing that's a smart thing.

I don't think they are i just want the guys on here who dig to dig and leak shit or for them to come forward. Also they can't without tv unless they're planning to be nll but mcgrane has kind of poo pooed that idea. Otherwise they've figured out what several economists haven't.

9 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I had BeIN and I have DAZN now, and I thought we made it clear in the DAZN or CPL TV Contract thread, that,

Pretty much 90% I believe of the soccer content that DAZN has right now is through beIN. DAZN signed a sub-license agreement with beIN to be able to show the La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1, UCL, Championship matches rights that beIN owns. The agreement's discussed on DAZN Canada's wiki too.

I don't know why you're so against beIN. I don't like them personally because of its connections to the Miami base of CONCACAF and Traffic, but as a soccer channel in Canada, I think it very much serves a niche.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAZN

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/dazn-sub-licenses-bein-sports-rights-package-in-canada

I have nothing against bein but they have no real reach which is bad for the cpl as advertising are less willing to pay. Even if dazn is subcontracting, it's still got nfl which (despite issues) has turned a lot of heads and gotten people to sign up. The thing bein does has is higher income users but with dazn i suspect there has been a drop. They're also not common in bars which is essential to cpl.

Edited November 3, 2017 by matty

[ironcub14]

Just now, matty said:

I don't think they are i just want the guys on here who dig to dig and leak shit or for them to come forward. Also they can't without tv unless they're planning to be nll but mcgrane has kind of poo pooed that idea. Otherwise they've figured out what several economists haven't.

I have nothing against bein but they have no real reach which is bad for the cpl as advertising are less willing to pay. Even if dazn is subcontracting, it's still got nfl which (despite issues) has turned a lot of heads and gotten people to sign up. The thing bein does has is higher income users but with dazn i suspect there has been a drop.

The logic for me is real simple with respect to CPL, beIN and DAZN.

If CPL is on beIN, then it will be on DAZN through the sub-license contract. And it will be on cable TV on beIN.

If CPL is not on beIN and on DAZN only, then it will not be on cable TV.

I'll pick the former option over the latter option.

[matty]

18 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

The logic for me is real simple with respect to CPL, beIN and DAZN.

If CPL is on beIN, then it will be on DAZN through the sub-license contract. And it will be on cable TV on beIN.

If CPL is not on beIN and on DAZN only, then it will not be on cable TV.

I'll pick the former option over the latter option.

I get the logic but i suspect they end their relationship at euro ball and dazn is now looking out for itself. That said, There's always a chance.

Where ever it is it will be an up hill battle. The biggies will likely pass, specialty channels are stigmatized, the euro sport channels have tiny reach and streaming doesn't do well yet and still is likely 20 years from being the norm and stuff done on snapchat and instagram are not as popular as many think unless you're wwe.

I do expect the first year or two broadcast plan will be short term and the same goes for the first tv/streaming deal they do.

Edited November 3, 2017 by matty