CPL General

[Kent]

25 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I'd be okay with Ottawa.  I'd prefer not to waste a trophy on a team that doesn't have any fans anyway.

There has been modest growth for York United this season. It's possible hosting a CPL final or a Champions Cup game next year could help increase the growth even more. York, Vancouver, and Valour are the 3 teams to have never hosted a playoff game. That might be a factor in why they are 3 of the 4 least attended teams (Pacific being the other).

[SoccMan]

The thing is with York they have never been a contender, never hosted a playoff game . I’ve always been curious to see what a contending team would do to attendance for York or if they can get a decent crowd for a playoff game or even a final if somehow they made it that far and hosted a final .Moreover, even more interesting would be what the crowd size would be hosting an MLS team or a Mexican team in the Champions Cup . 

[Mihairokov]

3 hours ago, Kingston said:

I'd be okay with Ottawa.  I'd prefer not to waste a trophy on a team that doesn't have any fans anyway.

Are teams only good if there's people in the stands? Maybe we should just sort the table by attendance and not have the games mean anything. 

The idea of Ottawa hosting a championship/Champions Cup game is enticing if only for the shakeup and change it would provide. I try not to get excited for these sorts of things based solely on speculative attendances but hosting in February is always a tossup, and I can't deny that Ottawa would do well hosting all things considered. 

Edited September 3 by Mihairokov

[Kingston]

2 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

Are teams only good if there's people in the stands?

Not at all.  But big games do help teams bolster future attendance.  I'd rather use that on teams that have a future.  York going from 1400 to 1600 because they won a trophy is a waste.  The quicker it is acknowledged that York is simply a failure, the quicker the league can move on.  We all knew that not every team would succeed when launching an entirely new league.  If Edmonton and York are our only failures, that's actually really good, especially if we can eventually get back there.  But York right now is just not a success.

[gigi riva]

I still think York should relocate to a KW or London 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

On another topic, Onesoccer are having a close look at the issues CanPL goalkeepers have with inswinging corners:

https://onesoccer.ca/a/healey-there-s-just-something-about-the-canadian-premier-league-and-olimpicos-

Personally doubt it's any more complicated than dropping the whole fad of not having defenders on both posts at corners if your team isn't capable of doing it that way. Just because you see it done that way at the very top level on TV doesn't mean you have to emulate it.

Edited September 3 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

55 minutes ago, Kingston said:

...If Edmonton and York are our only failures, that's actually really good, especially if we can eventually get back there...

Perhaps worth bearing in mind that Vancouver, Valour and Pacific are only a change of mind by either Dean Shillington or Wade Miller away from being highly problematic for the league. One thing York has going for them right now is that a change of mind is less likely to be imminent when the club is still a bright shiny new toy where the new ownership is concerned. I agree that it would have been better to relocate than to double down but the investors in CSB still appear to think Mark Noonan is going to deliver them MLS-style escalating franchise values and have talked about keeping York going because they are still betting on their original vision which very much needs the GTA market to be on board.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, gigi riva said:

I still think York should relocate to a KW or London 

I would love to see a team in KW and/or London. I'm not sure why a team (York United) has to move there and bring along it's baggage though. Either York keeps going and KW and/or London get their own teams, or York United folds (I hope not, I am one of the rare fans) and an expansion team pops up in KW and/or London. Just like FC Edmonton wasn't relocated to Vancouver. Edmonton folded, and Vancouver was born.

The only way it makes any sense to relocate is if the owners are ready to give up on York United, but not giving up on the CPL. So you could have a case of the same owners, and retaining the same player and coaching contracts. But they would probably have to work on different sponsorships, different branding, obviously getting a different stadium, etc.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Perhaps worth bearing in mind that Vancouver, Valour and Pacific are only a change of mind by either Dean Shillington or Wade Miller away from being highly problematic for the league. One thing York has going for them right now is that a change of mind is less likely to be imminent when the club is still a bright shiny new toy where the new ownership is concerned. 

The other three are at least within striking distance of being sustainable.  So, yes, still owner supported for now but there's a realistic chance of them becoming self-sustaining.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I would love to see a team in KW and/or London. I'm not sure why a team (York United) has to move there and bring along it's baggage though. Either York keeps going and KW and/or London get their own teams, or York United folds (I hope not, I am one of the rare fans) and an expansion team pops up in KW and/or London. Just like FC Edmonton wasn't relocated to Vancouver. Edmonton folded, and Vancouver was born.

I agree with this.  It would be an easier sell for the new market.

And, to be clear, I in no way hope that York fails; I just don't see the team getting to where it needs to be.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

The other three are at least within striking distance of being sustainable.  So, yes, still owner supported for now but there's a realistic chance of them becoming self-sustaining.

Who says they aren't sustainable now? I know Pacific, at least, have a lot of revenue sources other than game day attendance and we don't even know what their operating costs are 

Edited September 3 by Aird25

[jonovision]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

On another topic, Onesoccer are having a close look at the issues CanPL goalkeepers have with inswinging corners:

https://onesoccer.ca/a/healey-there-s-just-something-about-the-canadian-premier-league-and-olimpicos-

Personally doubt it's any more complicated than dropping the whole fad of not having defenders on both posts at corners if your team isn't capable of doing it that way. Just because you see it done that way at the very top level on TV doesn't mean you have to emulate it.

I think a dirty secret about CPL twitter's constant "Bangers Only" theme is that the keepers in this league are simply not very good. So an abnormally high number of long range strikes go in. Olimpicos, for me, fall in the same category.

[narduch]

14 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I think a dirty secret about CPL twitter's constant "Bangers Only" theme is that the keepers in this league are simply not very good. So an abnormally high number of long range strikes go in. Olimpicos, for me, fall in the same category.

Even Carducci, who managed a CanMNT call up in 2019 while playing CPL seems to have regressed.

[Cheeta]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

The other three are at least within striking distance of being sustainable.  So, yes, still owner supported for now but there's a realistic chance of them becoming self-sustaining.

Little bird shared a rumor.  While WFC would love to be rid of Valour, turns out this whole developing a footie club is actually really, really hard work, they're only willing to let it go under some very specific conditions.  Otherwise, it's status quo for the foreseeable future.  For what it's worth (good and bad).

Not exactly done with York either.  Still believe there's an answer there but it's going to take some more effort.  That's for sure.

 

[Bison44]

49 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Who says they aren't sustainable now? I know Pacific, at least, have a lot of revenue sources other than game day attendance and we don't even know what their operating costs are 

I remember reading a lot of "Westhead" type business articles when MLB was having a tough go many moons ago.  All sorts of weird financial factors came up. Like rent or own your stadium, taxes or tax breaks, % of luxury boxes, control of parking/concession revenue...funny details that had a big impact of which teams were in the red.  Let alone operating in a cross border league and paying your players in US$ but revenue is in CDN.  Judging a teams financial health on attendance is  suspect at best.  What it does indicate is the level of interest and how much the local CDN soccer brand is penetrating into the community.  

[jonovision]

58 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Little bird shared a rumor.  While WFC would love to be rid of Valour, turns out this whole developing a footie club is actually really, really hard work, they're only willing to let it go under some very specific conditions.  Otherwise, it's status quo for the foreseeable future.  For what it's worth (good and bad).

Not exactly done with York either.  Still believe there's an answer there but it's going to take some more effort.  That's for sure.

 

Willing to let it go, or let it go under? 

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

Who says they aren't sustainable now? I know Pacific, at least, have a lot of revenue sources other than game day attendance and we don't even know what their operating costs are 

I don't think you're signing a 1 year deal on the stadium lease if everything is sustainable under the current conditions.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Cheeta said:

Little bird shared a rumor.  While WFC would love to be rid of Valour, turns out this whole developing a footie club is actually really, really hard work, they're only willing to let it go under some very specific conditions.  Otherwise, it's status quo for the foreseeable future.  For what it's worth (good and bad).

Not exactly done with York either.  Still believe there's an answer there but it's going to take some more effort.  That's for sure.

 

The Valor situation is always a little more complicated. They're owned by the team that runs the stadium, but don't count the stadium revenue for themselves. If "game day activities" that get counted by the stadium are still strong enough, Valor can "lose" money and it might still be worth holding on to them.

[Aird25]

41 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I don't think you're signing a 1 year deal on the stadium lease if everything is sustainable under the current conditions.

What does sustainability have to do with a negotiation tactic for something that was previously agreed to, and substantially invested in?

You can be making money, and still negotiate a more favorable position to make more.

Edited September 4 by Aird25

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Who says they aren't sustainable now? I know Pacific, at least, have a lot of revenue sources other than game day attendance and we don't even know what their operating costs are 

They may be.  However, when the league was starting, league officials stated the necessary attendance for sustainability as something between 5000 and 7000.   My multi-decade observations of which soccer teams survived long term and which didn’t also suggests 5000 as a good number to use.  So, yes, plus or minus a bit for each given market but I suspect a slight majority of CPL teams aren’t yet self-supporting financially.  
 

I should add that it’s always possible to have a viable league without any profitable teams.  I, however, would prefer to have teams that won’t vanish the moment an owner gets bored with his toy.  

Edited September 4 by Kingston

[jonovision]

13 minutes ago, Kingston said:

My multi-decade observations of which soccer teams survived long term and which didn’t also suggests 5000 as a good number to use.

I assume this is Canada or North America only?

[Mihairokov]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

My multi-decade observations of which soccer teams survived long term and which didn’t also suggests 5000 as a good number to use.

Just don't tell that to the Pittsburgh Riverhounds, I guess. 😋

I know everyone loves to hyperfixate on attendance because it's the only crumb of a number we're given but there are so many more extentuating factors for a club's bottomline than how many tickets are distributed for a match.

[Kent]

I know the dollar amounts are rarely mentioned, but does anybody know how many players York United have sold for a fee? I feel like there have been a few.

I just fumbled around Transfrmarkt a bit to find the following total transfer values.

Forge €718k
Cavalry €479k
Pacific €241k
York United €127k

I hope the guys that have recently transferred out of CPL can make an impact at their new clubs so the players to follow them in the future can attract higher fees for the CPL clubs. More transfers like Kwasi Poku that can pay off the majority of the player wages for a season would be massive, especially for the teams that don't draw big crowds.

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

What does sustainability have to do with a negotiation tactic for something that was previously agreed to, and substantially invested in?

You can be making money, and still negotiate a more favorable position to make more.

Because the attitude of the mayor/council has generally seemed to be that they wouldn't care if the team walked.  I'm not saying they're hoping for it, but rather that they don't seem inclined to give way too much on the negotiation front.  Given that, I don't think Pacific would jeopardize the situation if they were already in a sustainable position.  Rather, I think they're trying to squeeze a bit more out of the city in order to get closer to a sustainable one.

[Kingston]

10 hours ago, jonovision said:

I assume this is Canada or North America only?

Yes.  This is the old CSL, A-League, old version of the USL, and whatever other acronyms I'm forgetting now.  Those teams that drew at least 5000 tended to continue on through all the wreckage of the different leagues while those that didn't, didn't.